Recording help.

[clefurgey]

hi everyone.

I'm a new member, I just joined today. Anyway, i plan to do some recordings soon, but need some help first. Before that, A bit of background.

My name's Cheryl, I'm from ontario canada, and i'm totally blind. I use a program to read the screen. Now, on to my questions.

I bought a sony mz-n707 off of ebay, after asking around on some musical theatre mailing lists and being told that this unit, plus the sound professionals sp-bmc-2 mics give almost professional sounding recordings.

I bought the mics, along with the sp-aten1, and now come my questions.

My first recording will hopefully take place on the 30th of this month, at the fallsview casino in niagara falls. All I can tell you is this is a fifteen hundred seat ballroom, and we're sitting in the front row. I don't know anything about what kind of sound system the artist will use.

my second recording will hopefully happen november 11th, at the cannon theatre in toronto. I'm going to see the musical wicked, and would like to record this.

questions:

1. As i mentioned before, i have the sp-aten1, but I can't decide whether or not to use it. Anyone whose recorded either the musical wicked or leann rimes, please let me know if you used the attenuator. I can't afford a battery box right now, so the attenuator is my only option.

2. If i do use the attenuator and end up with quiet recordings, is there anything I can do to boost the volume once i record the files to my computer? I've been told that if I boost the volume I'll get a hissy recording, but since I don't know if there'd be any hiss to begin with, I'm not sure what to do.

3. I can't decide how to set my levels. Again, anyone whose recorded any of the above things, please help.

thanks for any help, I'm sorry this turned out to be so long.

Hope to hear from some of you soon,

Cheryl

PS, I need ansers before the 30th of this month, thanks!

[A440]

Welcome, Cheryl.

I used exactly the same setup that you now have for a long time.

The following will make a lot more sense when you have the unit in your hand.

Go Mic-->Attenuator-->Mic-in. Make sure the attenuator is on its maximum volume--it's still cutting the signal even at max volume.

I wish the unit were more user-friendly to a blind person. Unfortunately, you can't just push the Record button. Each time you start recording you're going to have to go through menus and change settings first, which means somehow you're going to have to read the display on the unit. Or with a little help from someone, you can probably count the clicks and get used to the routine.

The essential thing is to use Manual Volume, which will involve going through menus each time you start a recording session. The settings disappear when you hit STOP. If you don't use Manual, the unit uses Auto Gain Control, and that makes the volume whoosh up and down every time someone hits a drum.

Here's the drill:

With a disc in the unit and the attenuator and mic plugged in to Mic-in, hold PAUSE and press REC. Then Menu/REC SET/Rec Volume/Manual. Use the joystick/wheel to set the recording level at 15/30, halfway up the bars. That should give you some room if it gets extra loud.

Do all that outside the theater, or even at home before you leave. With a fresh new alkaline battery, you'll have plenty of time. Leave the unit on pause and HOLD with all its settings correct, plug in your remote and put the unit in your purse or pocket. When you want to start recording, start recording by pushing the PAUSE button on the remote, which will actually un-pause and start recording.

Anything amplified needs either the attenuator or a battery box. Trying to go directly into the microphone jack will just give you unlistenable distortion.

As long as the attenuator is all the way up, you won't have to worry about the recording being too quiet. There's a possibility that if the music is way too loud, it will still distort, and the only way to solve that is by using a battery box instead, so start saving up for a battery module. I use this now:

http://www.microphonemadness.com/products/mmcbmminminc.htm

But I recorded lots of rock concerts with your setup and they turned out fine.

You will get a better sounding recording if you use SP rather than LP2. But because you'll only get 80 minutes on a disc with SP instead of 160 with LP2, you have to decide whether you'll be comfortable changing discs (maybe at intermission) and redoing all the settings while you're at the show.

Try some recording with your stereo or TV at home to get accustomed to it.

The recording you'll get depends strongly on where your mics are placed. They should be about 6 inches apart (like your ears) and near your ears or above. The lower they are, the murkier the sound--exactly what you'd hear if your head were down there. I usually clip mine to a shirt collar, but if you can clip them to eyeglasses or a hat, even better.

Oh, and don't get caught! Wear dark clothing so the (black) mics and wires aren't visible against them.

One last thing: An ideal unit for you would be the new, expensive (about $330 US, ouch!) but much more user-friendly MZ-RH1. That's the only unit that holds the recording settings, so you could just plug in the mic and hit the Record button. It also has a lot of other good features: higher-quality recording and the ability to upload recordings directly to a computer. But the MZ-N707 is the one that got me hooked originally.

Edited October 6, 2006 by A440

[clefurgey]

hi.

Thanks so much, that helps tons. Um, only one question. I didn't get the remote with mine. So, could i just take hold off, hit the up-arrow thingy to unpause, then just put hold back on?

Yeah, that price tag you gave makes me go ouch too, but maybe they'll be on ebay soon.

Thanks again,

Cheryl

[A440]

You can definitely use the Pause button on the unit, and you should feel the disc start up. The only reason not to is for stealth--especially if you're in the front row.

You could check Ebay for some of the cheaper stick remotes--some are under $10. The very basic one that came with the MZ-N707 was the RM-MZ4R, but others (except radio remotes) should be compatible, like the RM-MC10L or RM-MC11EL. All of the remote functions, and more, are on the unit itself, so it would only be for convenience.

Here's a guide to most of the remotes:

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showt...l=guide+remotes

Also, if by chance you have a Sony portable CD player with a remote, try plugging it into the MZ-N707 and see if it works. Sony made a lot of its remotes interchangeable.

[clefurgey]

hi. I've got just two more questions. If I do all thesettings beforehand, then record for a bit, then pause, will i have to do all the settings over again? I really hope not.

Second, when you talk about using the wheel to put the mic level to fifteen, what wheel are you talking about? only round thing I see is the joystick? arrows? whatever you wanna call it. The volume control is just a two-button pad thingy.

Sorry my description sucked, hope you know what I meant.

[A440]

The settings will stay if you use Pause. It's just Stop that sends them back to defaults.

You're right, it's the joystick. Sorry, I haven't had an MZ-N707 in hand for a while. It's the horizontal axis of the joystick, right for higher level, left for down. You can't change the recording level during recording on the MZ-N707--the only time you can adjust is in REC/PAUSE, paused while recording.

I just looked at the manual, which is online here:

http://www.minidisc.org/manuals/sony/sony_mzn707_manual.pdf

Another thing you should do in the REC SET menus is make sure that REC-POSI, Record Position, is set to End Search, so it starts at the end of the previous recording instead of recording in the middle of whatever you were listening to. That will stay as a default, so you only need to set it once. If you have a used unit, someone probably already did it, but it's worth checking.

Edited September 22, 2006 by A440

[clefurgey]

thanks. With that record position, if I record for a bit, then pause, then record again, I'd just be recording right at the point where I pushed pause, so it'd just add on to my last recording, right?

Sorry, now i've just confused myself. oi!

[A440]

Yes, after Pause it just continues--though Pause adds a gapless, silent track mark.

Record Position is more about what happens when you're using a partially recorded MD. On the first MD units, if you were playing back a disc and pushed the Record button, it would start recording wherever you had stopped, like a tape cassette. Remember those?

Around the time the MZ-N707 was made, they still came out of the box recording where you had stopped, but they allow you to switch permanently to recording from the end, which is better.

Since you can move tracks around on a minidisc, it makes more sense to always start recording from the end. If you ever want to insert your new recording between tracks that were already on the disc, you can do that.

[clefurgey]

ah, that makes sense now.

Would you be willing to do me a huuuge favor? Would you, or someone, be willing to write out key sequences for me? Someone has written out the menu structure, but it'd be nice to know how to do all of this stuff.

If you can/have time/feel like doing this, I'd appreciate it. you can email this to me, as most people probably wouldn't be interested.

My email addie's in my profile, or should be, but if not:

cheryl@the-jdh.com

Thanks for all of your help.

[Christopher]

Welcome. Cheryl, I think that this will be of interest to many who are new, or perhaps in your situation as well.

A little off topic, but is the forum easy to use through this screen reader? If you have any suggestions, please feel free to send me a private message and I will most certainly attend to them.

[clefurgey]

Hi.

Thanks for the welcome. JAWS, the screenreader I use, is pretty good with most things, it just won't do graphics or pictures.

As a result, I'm using the loFI version of the forum when I read it, as I can get around it faster. I just wish that version had the reply and new topic butttons, which I don't seem to be seeing unless I use the full version.

If there's something I'm missing, please fill me in

Thanks again,

Cheryl

[A440]

Cheryl--

Try this for setting Manual Level:

Put in a disc and press REC/PAUSE.

Then:

Menu button (hold it a few seconds to get the menu), five clicks down with pointing stick (REC SET), Enter, one click down (AUTOMATIC/MANUAL VOLUME), Enter.

That should put you into Manual Level.

On the MZ-N707, if I remember right, Manual will go to your last Manual level setting if it was above 13/30, or back to 13/30 if your setting was below 13/30. So if you set it once at 14 or 15, you should be able to just use that sequence of clicks, without having to read what the level is each time you go into Manual Volume. And if it somehow goes back to 13/30, that's still a reasonable level anyway.

Edited September 24, 2006 by A440

[lrsh84]

Hi... sorry to butt into this thread, but I'm using almost the exact same equipment (MZ-N707) but with SP-BMC-3 bianural mics (not SP-BMC-2) and have been having some problems with distortion, both from the lower levels (bass on highly amplified concerts) and the higher levels (extremely loud or high vocals in a more intimate concert setting).

I've gathered that I need either an attenuator or a battery box, and it seems like this contraption from Radio Shack supposedly does the trick as an attenuator:

http://www.radioshack.com/sm-gold-plated-v...pi-2102975.html

But is there a "real" attenuator out there I should get instead? I figured I would try this solution first since it is considerably cheaper than the battery box.

A440, you've mentioned the battery box from Microphone Madness (MM-CMB-Mini) module several times... so this works with your MZ-N707 and the Sound Pro mics? I was looking at a battery box from Sound Professionals (that they recommended to go with the mics I have) and it also has optional add-ons of levels adjustment and bass roll-off.

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/...?item=SP-SPSB-1

However, with adding on both of those options, it brings this one to $99.00, whereas the one you recommend is only $50...

Since bass has been one of my primary problems, this bass roll-off feature sounds very appealing. However, it seems I've gathered (from what I've read on these forums) that with the battery box and using line in, that might solve my bass problems anyway and I wouldn't NEED the bass roll-off. The levels adjustment is attractive to me, though, esp. because of the ridiculously annoying maunal level adjustment on the Sony models where you have to set the recording level manually, through those five million steps, EVERY time. This is difficult in "stealth" situations. I figured it would be easier to adjust levels if there's an easily accessible switch in this battery box.

Anyway, just wondering if you have any recommendations on this... Thanks!!!

[greenmachine]

Attenuating before the signal reaches the recorder will increase the noisefloor [after normalization]. For highest quality use the recorder's fiddly manual settings instead, even if it may not be as convenient. To solve your your distortion problem, my recommendation would be a battery box->line in [any brand, no roll-off necessary]. An attenuator might be less expensive, but won't work as well in the long run [for technical explanations, search the forums].

[clefurgey]

A440,

You said I could put in a disc and hit rec/pause then go into the menus. one other question, I read that with another recorder, you can hold down the pause button then hit record. With my n707, can I hold down the up-arrow part of the joystick thingy, and while holding it down, press record? I just wonder, since if someone's going to read the display to me before we leave, I don't want their voice on my recording.

Thanks,

Cheryl

[raintheory]

Yes, with the N707 you can be holding pause down while you slide the record switch on. I used to have the N707 and that is how I have always done it. There is no need to try to do them at the same time, just be sure you are holding pause down while you hit record.

Also, A440 if I recall correctly there is no need to hold the menu button down for a few seconds to enter menu on the older netMD units, including the N707. I had also thought that pressing downward on the little control dial on the N707 was STOP which would make you exit the menu... I thought left and right on the dial moved between menu choices. I could be wrong, haven't used the N707 in awhile, but you may want to double check it.

Also, the ENTER button on the N707 is actually the PLAY button as well, which is pressing in the control dial...

Edited September 25, 2006 by raintheory

[lrsh84]

Attenuating before the signal reaches the recorder will increase the noisefloor [after normalization]. For highest quality use the recorder's fiddly manual settings instead, even if it may not be as convenient. To solve your your distortion problem, my recommendation would be a battery box->line in [any brand, no roll-off necessary]. An attenuator might be less expensive, but won't work as well in the long run [for technical explanations, search the forums].

Thanks!!!

And good luck, Cheryl!

[A440]

I'll have to try my old MZ-N707 when I actually have it in hand. What you write about the Stop button sounds right, though--left and right for everything is probably the way it goes.

Greenmachine, the MZ-N707 won't let you adjust manual levels while you're recording--only in Pause. That's why I started using the attenuator in the first place--to give me on-the-fly level control. But I soon realized that set-it-and-forget-it is much better than fiddling during the show. So if you do use it, leave the attenuator on maximum and set one level in Manual before you start.

Bass roll-off is a waste of money. If you're not peaking the levels as you go through line-in, you will get good bass without distortion--and a much more accurate recording. You can always roll off the bass playback if the room was bass-y, but at least you're getting what you heard on the recording.

Level control on a battery module would be useful for on-the-fly changes during recording, but you need to do that sparingly if at all.

In the long period that I used an attenuator before switching to the battery module, noise was not particularly a problem because I was recording at high levels to begin with, and didn't have to boost the volume later. Whatever small amount of noise it did introduce could sometimes have the effect of making the music sound more live. However, the mics themselves would definitely distort sooner, because they were getting less power, at really blasting concerts.

I used the attenuator primarily for stealth, because I didn't want to carry a big box along with the MD, and it is a good budget solution. But there's no doubt that a battery module is definitely more hi-fi. I like the Mic Madness one mostly because it's tiny, but it's far from the only choice. You don't have to worry about compatibility between brands: voltage is voltage.

[lrsh84]

Gotcha. Thanks for the advice, A440!

[nulldogmas]

Bass roll-off is a waste of money. If you're not peaking the levels as you go through line-in, you will get good bass without distortion--and a much more accurate recording.

If I don't have bass roll-off, though, I'm using a bunch of my headroom on bass that could otherwise go to other frequencies. Or to put it more simply: If I roll off the bass during recording, I can crank up the gain that much more without peaking. If I EQ out the bass afterwards, as you suggest, I'm just throwing away data.

(Admittedly, I'm saying this before I've yet tried out my new bass roll-off battery box for the first time. But it's one reason why I spent an extra 20 bucks for this feature.)

[A440]

Perhaps you know exactly what bass frequencies are going to be over-emphasized at your next show, and perhaps your bass roll-off is fine-tuned enough to match them. Somehow I doubt it.

Mic--battery module--line-in gives me ample headroom without distorting my recording on the way in. The recording does not have to be overly quiet to accommodate the actual bass.

And I would rather throw away data from an accurate recording than never gather the data in the first place.

Bass roll-off conceivably has some use if you are recording through mic-in, where even modest bass can cause distortion. I've always thought that's why Sony makes the microphones it markets as "for minidisc" wth bass response stopping at 100 Hz. With all the mics I've used, the battery box provides enough juice to go through Line-in, where there's no preamp to overload.

But to each his own...

[nulldogmas]

Perhaps you know exactly what bass frequencies are going to be over-emphasized at your next show, and perhaps your bass roll-off is fine-tuned enough to match them. Somehow I doubt it.

Mic--battery module--line-in gives me ample headroom without distorting my recording on the way in. The recording does not have to be overly quiet to accommodate the actual bass.

And I would rather throw away data from an accurate recording than never gather the data in the first place.

What I meant by "throwing away data" is that if I reduce the bass, I can use the headroom I've gained to record more data at other frequencies (by upping the gain overall).

I've found that, with my mics at least, I end up EQing down the bass for virtually all shows anyway. I agree, though, this is a matter of taste, and pointless to argue about.

[A440]

I can use the headroom I've gained to record more data at other frequencies (by upping the gain overall).

That's the part I don't get. I was just at an Eric Clapton concert tonight at Madison Square Garden. Lots of bass in the place. As usual my setup was Sound Professionals BMC-2 mics and Microphone Madness Mini Classic Battery Module into Line-in. Manual Volume was about 20/30, and I probably could have gone to 21/30, and I have a very vivid, accurate, loud live recording. I have no idea whether eliminating some bass would allow me to make it, maybe, 23/30, but I don't think sacrificing the bass is worth it.

You're right, it's a matter of taste. Rolled-off recordings sound shallow to me.

[greenmachine]

It also depends on what playback equipment you aim/optimize for. I usually turn the bass down when listening through loudspeakers, while for headphone listening i like to have it unedited. Distant miked recordings usually don't sound great through loudspeakers anyway.

[tiberiusbeekirk]

I wish I was at the Eric Clapton concert, my sis got a pair of free tickets for Saturday and she's going with her husband.

I found my DIY panasonic mics are much more sensitive than my other DIY unit made from some PC mics. I'm sure they'll pick up lots of bass but I don't mind unless it's overpowering.

We'll see, I only recorded one show with them. Practice makes perfect.

I don't know about the N707 but with my two MD units, the R700 and R500, there's no numbered level for manual recording, just a graphic of a bar to +. but I noticed the range is the same as other Units. 30 clicks to max.

[MDnewuser]

I tried A440:s tips tonight regarding using a remote. My first Hi-MD was a MZ-NH700 i never bothered to unwrap the remote since i felt no use for it at the time. It went smooth but i didnt feel quite comfortable with it either, leaving it on pause.

I mean, i only had to rely on my fingers, pushing the right button once and switch to hold. Wish there were someway to actually now the recorder starts without actually take out the MD and have a look. Nervousity (as many know) also can blew a recording, thinking you start and then discover you left it on pause. Anyway, fun to try something new, and the remote didnt take much space either.