MD to MD or MD to PC and then back to MD?

[jernikfra]

Just wondering if anyone has any theories on if recording digitally from an MD to another MD through an scms remover is better or is it better to upload SP recordings to your PC at PCM and then download to another MD at SP.I have done listening test comparing the two and have been unable to detect sound quality difference.

I even uploaded an MD SP song to PC at PCM and then recorded it from the connect library through the USb to optical adapter to MD at SP.anyways, never noticed any difference, maybe my ears can't notice a difference, perhaps someone elses ears can and would let us all know.I assume USB transfers are all digital, so I can't see much difference between various methods.Any info would be great.Thanks !

[eriktous]

Are you able to hear a difference between SP and LP2?

If you are, you should also be able to hear a difference between MD(SP)-->MD(SP), and MD(SP)-->PC(PCM)-->MD(SP).

[jernikfra]

Are you able to hear a difference between SP and LP2?

If you are, you should also be able to hear a difference between MD(SP)-->MD(SP), and MD(SP)-->PC(PCM)-->MD(SP).

i notice a very small difference between sp and lp2, none between the methods above.which method do you think should sound better?

[eriktous]

If you can hear the difference between SP and LP2, going straight from MD to MD should give you a better sounding recording.

When you go from PC to MD, the PCM doesn't get transcoded to SP directly. Rather, it gets transcoded to LP2 on the computer. This file then is sent to the MD via the USB connection, where the MD transcodes it to SP. So it looks like SP, but sounds like LP2.

Do a search of the forums with the keywords 'true SP' and 'padded LP2', and you should find plenty of threads where this phenomenon is discussed.

[Sparda]

But that only applies to Net-MD bitrates why wouldn't you instead use Hi-MD bitrates such as Hi-SP or maybe 352kbps.

[jernikfra]

If you can hear the difference between SP and LP2, going straight from MD to MD should give you a better sounding recording.

When you go from PC to MD, the PCM doesn't get transcoded to SP directly. Rather, it gets transcoded to LP2 on the computer. This file then is sent to the MD via the USB connection, where the MD transcodes it to SP. So it looks like SP, but sounds like LP2.

Do a search of the forums with the keywords 'true SP' and 'padded LP2', and you should find plenty of threads where this phenomenon is discussed.

i'm confused...you're saying md sp/292kbps to pc is actually sent at lp2 128 kbps, then made into pcm? i did the search you suggested, but the only result i got was your post which i'm replying to.i've recorded some cd's onto hi-md in pcm and then uploaded them to my pc in pcm, so i can store them on the hard drive in original format. but if i understand what you've said above, maybe i'm not getting what i think i am...

[eriktous]

i'm confused...

Understandable. It's a confusing subject, and I'm terrible at explaining it.

I started typing up a new explanation of what happens with SP transfers, but I just deleted it after reading it back, because it didn't seem any clearer than what I already wrote. I will try to find a thread where it gets explained better, and post a link here.

i've recorded some cd's onto hi-md in pcm and then uploaded them to my pc in pcm, so i can store them on the hard drive in original format. but if i understand what you've said above, maybe i'm not getting what i think i am...

No, I'm only talking about transfers in MD mode. When you're doing transfers in HiMD mode, you're getting what you're expecting.

[The Low Volta]

ok, first a couple of basics:

- legacy formats: SP = atrac @ 292kbps; LP2 = atrac3 @ 132kbps

- HiMD formats: HiSP = atrac3+ @ 256kbps; PCM = lineair wav @ 1411kbps

first method: MD-MD (optically):

i.e. you record in SP and then 'rerecord' it to a second MD in SP so the steps here are:

- recording in SP -> lossy compression @ 292kbps

- output is digital so no SQ-degradation

- rerecording on second MD in SP -> 2nd lossy compression @ 292kbps (unless digital rerecording would be bitperfect, but I really doubt that)

second method: MD-PC-MD:

i.e. you record in SP, upload with RH1 to PCM, download to MD in (pseudo-)SP, the steps again:

- recording in SP -> lossy compression @ 292kbps

- transfer = digital so no SQ-degradation

- storage on PC is in PCM (SP doesn't exist on PC, so you need to choose between HiSP or PCM) so the SP gets 'filled in' with 'zeros' till 1411kbps (but SQ doesn't get any better than the original SP recording)

- downloading to MD as SP... this is the main issue so I'll just focus a bit more on this step:

* as said above, there currently is no SP on PC, the atrac (not atrac3 or atrac3+) codec hasn't been developed for/ported to PC yet hence the choice to store the uploaded SP as either HiSP or PCM.

* as there is no SP possible on PC, Sony searched for a way to download 'something that SP-only players could read' to MD nonetheless

* the solution Sony came up with was to convert what you were trying to download to MD to LP2 (atrac3 @ 132kbps) on your PC (in SonicStage) (why LP2 and not HiSP? because it had to be compatible with non-HiMD NetMD players as well...

* this LP2 file is transfered through USB to your MD

* in you MD, the LP2-file gets 'rerecorded' or 'reconverted' to the SP-format... but as SQ-degradation is a one-way process (you can't get SQ back by converting a low-bitrate file to a higher bitrate one), this will sound like an LP2-file still and even slightly worse because it has been reconverted once more (from LP2 to SP)

- so summarizing this means PCM (1411kbps) (but only at the original SP-292kbps-SQ) gets converted to LP2 (132kbps) (this is a lossy reconversion AND to a lower bitrate as well so definitely leads to a certain SQ-degradation)

- then the LP2 is digitally transfered through USB (no SQ-degradation)

- the LP2 gets 'reconverted' to SP in your MD so lossy reconversion again... which (even though bitrate increases from 132kbps->292kbps) leads to (slight) SQ-degradation

as the second way passes through more lossy conversion-steps and has a lower-bitrate step in the chain and SQ-degradation is a one-way process whereby the lowest quality at any point in the process greatly determines the end-SQ ((1)-> 292kbps; (2)->132kbps) it should be clear that the SQ should be better preserved through method 1

SP is the only (Hi-)MD format that isn't present on PC, so using any other (Hi-)MD format this would be different as the second method would be:

- original recording in HiSP (as an example, it is the same for all non-SP formats) = lossy compression to atrac3+ @ 256kbps

- uploading through USB -> digital, no SQ-degradation

- storage on PC = the transfered file, so HiSP without any further conversion or loss in SQ

- downloading to MD is again digital and without any conversion or degradation so should be the same SQ as the original recording (though again it probably won't be bit-perfect)

as PCM is considered to be lossless (full-SQ that CD can offer) the above with PCM should give you lossless SQ in the end as well

all of this misses some nuance etc., but I still hope this helps to understand it a little

*edited for typos and for clarity in a couple of places

Edited February 7, 2007 by The Low Volta

[eriktous]

Thanks, Volta. That's a very clear explanation.

In my head I know exactly how it works, but I have difficulties putting it into words when explaining it to someone else in a clear and organised manner.

[2-J]

Here's one for the pros then; would uploading an SP MD to PC (as wav), then burning a CD-R with those wavs, then doing an optical digital copy from CD-R to MD be better?

Just asking on behalf of the original poster really, I only use MDs with mp3s on these days, apart from my old legacy recordings on original MDs.

[The Low Volta]

not 'better', but as far as SQ is concerned, the same as method (1), only a bit more cumbersome/timeconsuming and it needs a CDr (one could use CDrw though ) and a good CD-player or soundcard with optical out... so I would value it as 'worse by lack of practicality' IMHO

PS: as you'd need an RH1 for method (2), I really only see two options:

- you do not have the RH1, but all the stuff to do method (1) -> it is the best option

- you do have the RH1 -> just record in HiSP or PCM and enjoy the ease AND preserved SQ of method (2)b

Otherwise, I don't see why one would go through method (2) using SP... unless you are recording on a deck with timer functions etc perhaps

[jernikfra]

ok, first a couple of basics:

- legacy formats: SP = atrac @ 292kbps; LP2 = atrac3 @ 132kbps

- HiMD formats: HiSP = atrac3+ @ 256kbps; PCM = lineair wav @ 1411kbps

first method: MD-MD (optically):

i.e. you record in SP and then 'rerecord' it to a second MD in SP so the steps here are:

- recording in SP -> lossy compression @ 292kbps

- output is digital so no SQ-degradation

- rerecording on second MD in SP -> 2nd lossy compression @ 292kbps (unless digital rerecording would be bitperfect, but I really doubt that)

second method: MD-PC-MD:

i.e. you record in SP, upload with RH1 to PCM, download to MD in (pseudo-)SP, the steps again:

- recording in SP -> lossy compression @ 292kbps

- transfer = digital so no SQ-degradation

- storage on PC is in PCM (SP doesn't exist on PC, so you need to choose between HiSP or PCM) so the SP gets 'filled in' with 'zeros' till 1411kbps (but SQ doesn't get any better than the original SP recording)

- downloading to MD as SP... this is the main issue so I'll just focus a bit more on this step:

* as said above, there currently is no SP on PC, the atrac (not atrac3 or atrac3+) codec hasn't been developed for/ported to PC yet hence the choice to store the uploaded SP as either HiSP or PCM.

* as there is no SP possible on PC, Sony searched for a way to download 'something that SP-only players could read' to MD nonetheless

* the solution Sony came up with was to convert what you were trying to download to MD to LP2 (atrac3 @ 132kbps) on your PC (in SonicStage) (why LP2 and not HiSP? because it had to be compatible with non-HiMD NetMD players as well...

* this LP2 file is transfered through USB to your MD

* in you MD, the LP2-file gets 'rerecorded' or 'reconverted' to the SP-format... but as SQ-degradation is a one-way process (you can't get SQ back by converting a low-bitrate file to a higher bitrate one), this will sound like an LP2-file still and even slightly worse because it has been reconverted once more (from LP2 to SP)

- so summarizing this means PCM (1411kbps) (but only at the original SP-292kbps-SQ) gets converted to LP2 (132kbps) (this is a lossy reconversion AND to a lower bitrate as well so definitely leads to a certain SQ-degradation)

- then the LP2 is digitally transfered through USB (no SQ-degradation)

- the LP2 gets 'reconverted' to SP in your MD so lossy reconversion again... which (even though bitrate increases from 132kbps->292kbps) leads to (slight) SQ-degradation

as the second way passes through more lossy conversion-steps and has a lower-bitrate step in the chain and SQ-degradation is a one-way process whereby the lowest quality at any point in the process greatly determines the end-SQ ((1)-> 292kbps; (2)->132kbps) it should be clear that the SQ should be better preserved through method 1

SP is the only (Hi-)MD format that isn't present on PC, so using any other (Hi-)MD format this would be different as the second method would be:

- original recording in HiSP (as an example, it is the same for all non-SP formats) = lossy compression to atrac3+ @ 256kbps

- uploading through USB -> digital, no SQ-degradation

- storage on PC = the transfered file, so HiSP without any further conversion or loss in SQ

- downloading to MD is again digital and without any conversion or degradation so should be the same SQ as the original recording (though again it probably won't be bit-perfect)

as PCM is considered to be lossless (full-SQ that CD can offer) the above with PCM should give you lossless SQ in the end as well

all of this misses some nuance etc., but I still hope this helps to understand it a little

*edited for typos and for clarity in a couple of places

Wow...thats quite the explanation...i'm pretty impressed you took the time to explain it so well.I now understand.Here's another method I though of for moving one md to another...

1.1411 kbps CD recording to 292kbps MD SP.

2.Uploading that song to PC in PCM with mzrh1.

3.Playing that song using Sonicstage through my onkyo UD-5 USB to Optical adapter and recording it onto another MD deck's optical digital input in SP mode.

Based on what you said above, this would be one step better than doing the version you explained so well above.I guess the md to md digital method is still better since you bypass the sp to pcm conversion, but like you said, it doesn't sound any better or worse making into PCM.Luckily i can use all methods, so i'm ok doing whatever method works best.I'll avoid the sp download from now on.

Lastly...noticed you live in Belgium.Just a note to say i spent 4 great years between the ages of 8 and 12 living at 6 Clos D'orleans, Woluwe st-pierre in Brussels

from 1980-84.My dad was a canadian diplomat, so the family was always moving around.I went to the british school for 1 year and then le verseau belgian school for the last three.I learned real french there, not the crap they speak in quebec.