Edit MD tracks using PC connected?

[juhaszp]

Ladies and Gentlemen, all MD user manuals advise to do the necessary editing work on the minidisk itself before uploading the tracks to your computer. I can understand and accept this, but is there any way to control this work from a PC program rather than from the unit itself?

When I record long tracks it is difficult to find the place of separation by fast winding the title. It is much easier to do it from Sonic Stage, where I got a slider so I can rapidly click to any portion of the recording. How much easier it would be to press the track mark button after I found the right place using a mouse than clicking the little buttons of the MD Walkman, potentially damaging or at least wearing it overly.

Do you friends know a software solution for this?

[A440]

Do you friends know a software solution for this?

Not really. But if you upload and convert to .wav then you can edit to your heart's content, and much more precisely. And you'll have the original content still on the disc.

Having just had SonicStage 3.4 destroy a completely irreplaceable disc--and if SonicStage screws up, the entire disc is ruined--I strongly suggest uploading the tracks before manipulating them. Inserting track marks every so often is no problem--I always do it during shows. But working on the disc in the unit through SonicStage would be asking for trouble. And thanks to Sony's encryption, no other program can read the disc.

[juhaszp]

Inserting track marks every so often is no problem--I always do it during shows. But working on the disc in the unit through SonicStage would be asking for trouble. And thanks to Sony's encryption, no other program can read the disc.

Thank you for your response. In an other topic I read about the problem that wav uploaded tracks could not be combined seamlessly. Do you remove the automatic track marks before you upload the contents? Or are you not impacted by this problem?

Do you also find it dangerous to work on track marks before uploading even if you do it on the MD device alone without SonicStage?

[A440]

I read about the problem that wav uploaded tracks could not be combined seamlessly. Do you remove the automatic track marks before you upload the contents? Or are you not impacted by this problem?

Do you also find it dangerous to work on track marks before uploading even if you do it on the MD device alone without SonicStage?

Once the tracks are uploaded into SonicStage you can combine them seamlessly before converting them to .wav. with the Combine function in SonicStage.

There used to be a bug that if you erased a track mark on the unit before uploading--that is, you had Track 01 and Track 02, and erased the track mark on the unit so both tracks became Track 01--it would not upload. That bug was fixed in SonicStage 3.3 or 3.4, and it's no longer a problem. But I wouldn't overdo it if I were you.

The important thing is not to let SonicStage mess with the disc too much. Every time SonicStage deals with the disc it can wreck it, as I have recently learned. If the disc is ruined you lose everything.

Setting track marks with the unit isn't a problem. But then get the music off the disc and onto your computer while you can. Afterward, you can play with it all you want on the computer.

[juhaszp]

Once the tracks are uploaded into SonicStage you can combine them seamlessly before converting them to .wav. with the Combine function in SonicStage.

I have to apologize. I did not know about the combine / devide features of Sonic Stage that you can apply against the music loaded to "My Library". That seems to solve my problem. Original, probably inappropriate track marks can remain on the MD cartringe, and one can rearrange the tracks in My Library before exporting to wav.

Typical RTFM (read that fancy manual :-) type error, sorry about that. I will come back to tell if it worked well.

Edited March 1, 2007 by juhaszp

[juhaszp]

I will come back to tell if it worked well.

It did, however I experienced limitations. I could combine groups of tracks imported from a non-Hi MD. Then I tried to compile an audio CD, cancelled the process, went back and tried to further combine two tracks which were results of previous combine operations.

I got an error popup window: SonicStage(00004b7a-7181) in the heading, 'Cannot combine the selected tracks because they have been transferred - (Error Code: 0000601a)' in the body.

Edited March 1, 2007 by juhaszp

[boojum]

FWIW - I do not consider the Hi-MD recording safe until it is on my PC. I edit, enter track numbers and do all other file manipulation on the PC with the pristine Hi-MD as the safe backup in case of disaster. Track numbers are easily entered in CD WAV Editor. FLAC for compression, foobar2000 for ReplayGain and Audacity and Cool Edit for other post-production work. I just do not want to take a chance on losing the "mother" disc/recording. YMMV

[A440]

Yes, it's a tradeoff. And when Sony gives up on its idiot encryption we'll all be better off.

But in the meantime, get the music off the disc before anything goes wrong. I have now been to the top level of Sony USA customer support about a disc corrupted by SonicStage and as far as Sony is concerned, once a disc is ruined it's not their problem. Don't let it happen to you.

[boojum]

In response to the two previous posts:

1) I do not consider it a convenience to edit tracks on the RH1. I record, I upload, I edit. I do not feel safe until I have a copy on my PC. I have not yet lost anything on a Minidisc. I do not plan to either.

2) A440's grief with SONY is something I want to avoid. I am not sure they are responsible for lost data. It would be nice if they would help. I just do not want to be calling them for something like lost data.

When I get my data uploaded and converted to WAV, I enter tracks in WAV and do some processing in WAV and then label, apply ReplayGain and so on in FLAC. I burn to disc as either FLAC or WAV and sometimes make an MP3 for e-mailing a track or compiling a bunch to play in the truck.

YMMV

[greenmachine]

I wonder, how do you people usually proceed with unwanted track marks caused by line-in recording? On the unit editing, despite the increased reliability of later SS versions seems still risky, while combining via SS (after uploading) seems so incredibly resource-heavy.

[A440]

how do you people usually proceed with unwanted track marks caused by line-in recording? .

Maybe I'm lucky or the stuff I'm recording is just too loud, but I don't get a lot of unwanted track marks. Now and then, I do eliminate track marks on the unit, and sometimes even place new ones, and I have had no trouble uploading them with SS since about version 3.2. I do feel that they fixed that bug.

Even when tracks with erased track marks within them wouldn't upload, they were always intact on the disc, so you could do realtime recording if necessary.

What I don't do is put track marks around, say, unwanted applause and then delete the track and join the ones around the gap: that is, take tracks 1-2-3, erase 2, and join 1 and 3. I'm still scared of that bug.

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My ruined disc was the result of adding and removing a song with SonicStage. I still don't trust the interaction between computer and MD.

As for Sony's responsibility: If you impose a system of encryption, and you have the only key, then I think you have a responsibility to provide some way to apply that key if things go wrong. As it stands now, Sony has the key and is withholding it.

How about if I went over to Sony's house, broke something, and refused to try to fix it even if I might be able to? As they say, "I'm sorry, we do not provide that service."

Sony could license its encryption to a trusted vendor or subsidiary, or have unencryption through Sony repair centers for a fee, or do it a certain number of times for free per customer per year as a reward to regular users, or any number of solutions--even without making the encryption key public, which is really what it should do.

I have two VAIO computers, 4 or 5 minidisc recorders, a Sony TV, countless blank Sony CDs and DVDs and Hi-MDs, and who knows how much other Sony equipment. I think Sony has enough of my money so that it can provide a little customer service every so often.

I may want to ask one of MDCF's European members to send the disc to Sony Austria. PM me if that's a possibility.

Edited March 3, 2007 by A440

[boojum]

I wonder, how do you people usually proceed with unwanted track marks caused by line-in recording? On the unit editing, despite the increased reliability of later SS versions seems still risky, while combining via SS (after uploading) seems so incredibly resource-heavy.

I use the function in foobar2000 to combine any number of tracks into one. Then I have the one large WAV file I can insert track marks into where they belong. I have combined 289 "tracks" so far as the largest number from one set. The "combining" step is the first step for me when I use line-in. I do not have to depend on SS for anything and think that is wise. www.foobar2000.org It's free.

Oh, fb2k rips, burns, converts, labels, just about anything you would want. I like it. It is the Swiss Army knife of players.

Edited March 4, 2007 by boojum

[raintheory]

What I don't do is put track marks around, say, unwanted applause and then delete the track and join the ones around the gap: that is, take tracks 1-2-3, erase 2, and join 1 and 3. I'm still scared of that bug.

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I'm with you on that one. Though I do remember seeing posted that if you press stop (and let the unit write the TOC) after each step, you'll be okay. Not that I would want to try it though.

Edited March 4, 2007 by raintheory

[A440]

I use the function in foobar2000 to combine any number of tracks into one. Then I have the one large WAV file I can insert track marks into where they belong.

That's after uploading through SS and converting to .wav , right? Sounds good if you have the hard drive space. Does it take a lot of processing time?

[juhaszp]

Got the RH1 and started to convert my old recordings.

As of the original question: dividing and combination usually works fine in 'my library', so I import the untouched original tracks from the minidisk, combine the tracks created by automatic timed track marks, then divide the large tracks at the appropriate places, save the result as wav, use Lame encoder to convert to MP3, and archive on CD for later use.

I can confirm the worries about failing process. One time my Sonic Stage got frozen in the middle of a transfer. I had to restart Windows, repeated the transfer, luckily my disc remained intact and the repeated transfer gave the desired result.

Another problem is still there with one of my most valuable recordings. An interview with an old photographer who photo-reported the whole world war II from Stalingrad to Berlin, his Leica saved his life when a machine-gun bullet was stopped by the camera over his heart. The 3-hour interview was split to 5-minute track marks. When I combine some 20 of these track marks in SonicStage, the combination is done, but the wav transfer only results a part of the recording. It seems like there is an error in the middle of one 5-minute slice which prevents playing the track and also braking the file transfer. I wonder if I will be able to save this valuable recording.

It seems like there is an error in the middle of one 5-minute slice which prevents playing the track and also braking the file transfer. I wonder if I will be able to save this valuable recording.

Tried to play the original disc in an NH700. The faulty track plays, but there is a 1 second pause at the point where the wav transfer breaks and the play fails in Sonic Stage.

[A440]

It seems like there is an error in the middle of one 5-minute slice which prevents playing the track and also braking the file transfer. I wonder if I will be able to save this valuable recording.

Tried to play the original disc in an NH700. The faulty track plays, but there is a 1 second pause at the point where the wav transfer breaks and the play fails in Sonic Stage.

Record the faulty track to your computer in realtime. You can just record it out of the headphone jack with Audacity. http://audacity.sourceforge.net/download/windows

Or you can buy TotalRecorder for $18, play the track back with SonicStage (from My Library or through the unit connected by USB), and record it digitally from the soundcard as it plays back.

http://www.totalrecorder.com/index.htm

[juhaszp]

Record the faulty track to your computer in realtime. You can just record it out of the headphone jack with Audacity. http://audacity.sourceforge.net/download/windows

Or you can buy TotalRecorder for $18, play the track back with SonicStage (from My Library or through the unit connected by USB), and record it digitally from the soundcard as it plays back.

http://www.totalrecorder.com/index.htm

I would like to keep the original recordings as I am not an audio specialist myself. Whatever I do to a recording it degrades the quality of the original. For my current purposes 128 kbps MP3 is quite ok. Once one of my recordings becomes interesting to public or some serious user, the original can be used by skilled audio folks.

Thank you for the audacity advise. I used to record with HarddiskOgg. It is a very light and simple program, I did not have enough space for wav, nor processing power to work with large pcm files. Now that I have a bit stronger laptop, I miss the good line in interface, so this method does not work wit my stuff. I will copy the disc from an MZ-RH1 to an MZ-NH700 instead using RH1's line out option and NH700's line in. I hope the recording will be saved this way.

As of your TotalRecorder offer: I did not get it. The original is recorded in normal MD mode, so when SonicStage plays straight from the MD unit, the unit's loudspeaker output will be used, so no 'on the fly' recording can be made on the PC. Sonic Stage will only send the transferred track to the PC's sound card, but that's the original problem: tha faulty track neither plays, nor converts to wav.

Now I hope the MD-to-MD analogue copy will be used correctly by Sonic Stage and converted to wav. I will let you know.

[juhaszp]

Now I hope the MD-to-MD analogue copy will be used correctly by Sonic Stage and converted to wav. I will let you know.

It almost worked. Only those unwanted track marks were created on the copied disc :-(

[A440]

Great that you have a usable copy now. The problem must have been a defect in the original disc.

You can remove track marks on the unit. Put playback in Pause, click back and it will show Mark 10, Mark 9, etc. Pushing the track button will remove the track mark. There used to be a bug in older SonicStage versions that wouldn't let you upload tracks with (erased) track marks within them, but it has been fixed--I have had no problems with this procedure.

Or once you upload from the copied disc, you can Combine tracks with SonicStage.

You're right, Total Recorder doesn't work with old MD formats. I should have read the post more closely.

[juhaszp]

Great that you have a usable copy now.

Yes, I am glad too. It took much work and worry to convert my (non-Hi) recordings to a format which other people can play. Practically they only accept MP3 or audio CD format. Several recordings were not converted yet, and many were lost when a hard disc crashed due to an accident.

I purchased an RH1 mainly to save my old recordings and make them available to my friends. I had to rearrange the decordings: cut the unnecessary pre-event trial tracks, private chats and noise tracks. Also there was a need to change the borders of the tracks: combine automatically split tracks and cut them where the content allowed to separate. I started this topic to ask your help for this work.

I got more help than I expected. First of all, like many of us, I hate SonicStage because engineers did much to prevent us, customers to use, process our own recordings, our own intellectual property. Therefore I didn't even think about SonicStage giving me help in this work. You guys helped me to recognise, there is a divide / combine function within SonicStage which I didn't even know about. And it works fine: I let the disc as it is, don't touch the automatic or sudden track marks. Import recordings to Sonic Stage, do the edit work in SonicStage, then export the finally cut programs to wav, then either archive in wav, or convert further to MP3 and save / distribute it.

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The stuff works. Works much better than any previous methods, but it is still far from being trouble free. Minidisc recordings appear to be volatile, mainly due to the editing work, the instability of Sonic Stage and the conceptual problems of the Minidisc recorder itself. Main problem is the still-existing DRM limitation, which prevents us, users from copying our recordings as many times as we like to. At least preventing while we are in Sony's world, the Minidisc / Atrac arena. Once a TOC gets corrupted, it's better to forget about that recording and giving it up.

There are other types of failure, which can be worked around. Like my war-photographer interview disc: one 5-minute track (it was created by automatic track marks) has something in the middle that fails playing in SonicStage. The track esists, it can be combined with the neighbors, but the wav export stops at that very point. To make my progra mcomplete on PC, I made a disc-to-disc copy, and processed the analog-copy using SonicStage.

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RH1 is a great stuff to process old recordings. Nevertheless, I would be extremely careful with this device. Play / FFWD / RWD buttons are just opposite to the large, outstanding 'eject' button. It is very easy to open the door before TOC being fairly closed. When it happens, your recording is gone. So, I would use the RH1 as an office equipment, a kind of external floppy drive which reads old and new MD discs.

Edited March 9, 2007 by juhaszp

[greenmachine]

RH1 is a great stuff to process old recordings. Nevertheless, I would be extremely careful with this device. Play / FFWD / RWD buttons are just opposite to the large, outstanding 'eject' button. It is very easy to open the door before TOC being fairly closed. When it happens, your recording is gone. So, I would use the RH1 as an office equipment, a kind of external floppy drive which reads old and new MD discs.

The disk door, as with all MD recorders, should be automatically locked during any recording or editing processes. The eject button will have no effect. During playback there's no lock though.

[juhaszp]

The disk door, as with all MD recorders, should be automatically locked during any recording or editing processes. The eject button will have no effect. During playback there's no lock though.

Have you tried this? To me the door locks of all portable minidisc drives seemed to be fully mechanical. For some losses I had no other explanation than improper door opening or battery problem.

I never tried this so far, but I will, and report the result here.

[greenmachine]

I have no RH1, but it works on each of my three other recorders (NH700, R909, R700). I don't see a reason why the RH1 should be different. Give it a try.

[juhaszp]

I have no RH1, but it works on each of my three other recorders (NH700, R909, R700). I don't see a reason why the RH1 should be different. Give it a try.

Apologies. Just tried the eject button, it is locked when an edit is pending. My fault, I didn't know about tis feature.

Clever solution: I can press the button, it lowers, but there is effect, door stays closed until TOC written.

[juhaszp]

I wonder, how do you people usually proceed with unwanted track marks caused by line-in recording? On the unit editing, despite the increased reliability of later SS versions seems still risky, while combining via SS (after uploading) seems so incredibly resource-heavy.

Hello Greenmachine, please let me understand your problem.

1) If you edit the track marks on the unit, what risk do you face with Sonic Stage? Do you state that a track may not be transferred correctly (or not at all) if they were previously edited on the MD Walkman or desktop unit? Do you say that formerly failed transfer may work if you use Sonic Stage version later than the one which failed to transfer the edited tracks from unit to PC?

2) What do you mean by "incredibly resource-heavy"? Recently I transferred and converted approximately 46 hours of live recordings. In most cases there were 5, 10 or 15 minute automatic track marks. I combined the tracks in SonicStage My Library, then cut the long tracks at the appropriate points. Exported in wav, converted to MP3, then deleted the wav.

To me it appeared fairly rapid and problem-free. I used a 1.66 CoreDuo laptop with 1G ram and XP pro. I had one serious problem: a valuable long recording (3 hours, with 5-minute automatic tracks), where one 5-minute piece failed all the time, couldn't be fixed on PC. The other minor problem was that I lost the track names which I gave to tracks already imported to SonicStage. When saved in wav, SS renamed the tracks back to how those were called automatically when imported from the minidisc.

So is your resource problem related to weak PC or did you face a specific problem that I did not?