newbie to recording gigs

[goldenbreast]

hi all

im new here so first of all i'd like to say hi!

ive been thinking about getting into recording gigs, but all the technobbable has acted as a stumbling block. i know absolutely nothing about recording concerts so first of all i would like to know what is the best sought of equipment to use. i have a sony MZr55 MD recorder which has a 'mic(plug in power0' socket - does this mean i don't need a battery box?...

so apart from the MD player i need a microphone. as a newbie, i don't want to spend too much to start with. im a student so my budget is pretty tight. for example, would the below microphone (see link) provide a good recording?. also what are the key specs i should look for when buying a mic? - ive checked a few sites and under the microphones areas, there are tons of different types - condenser etc...what am i looking for?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/STEREO-PRO-MD-DAT-MI...bayphotohosting

so once i have the MD player and mic, what else do i need?

im in the UK, and would appreciate some info on good UK suppliers

many thanks

Alex

p.s. i will also check out the FAQ posts. sorry if im a bit all over the place, as i say, this is all very new to me

Edited May 2, 2007 by goldenbreast

[boojum]

No, that mic will not work. It will pick up the noise of the recorder. You will want a mic which will operate on 1.5 volts or one which requires a higher voltage (usually ~9 volts) and is used with a battery box. Sound Professionals and Microphone Madness are two sites which offer inexpensive mics. You will need to decide between an omnidirectional which picks up sound all around it and cardioid which picks up sound in front of it, mostly. Let your wallet be your guide. You can make good recordings with inexpensive mics, but results get better the more you spend. And in the chain the mics are the most important.

That said, get some mics and go out and have some fun. Try taperssection.com for additional advice as they are focussed on recording. And ask all you want here. We all started not knowing.

Cheers!

[A440]

To record amplified music, you need:

(Electret Condenser Omni) Mics and either:

A battery module (more expensive, better sound), which will allow you to record through Line-in.

Or an attenuator (Maplins VC-1, Radio Shack Headphone Volume Control cheap, slight decrease in sound quality, possibility of overloading at loud volume) that would go Mic-->attenuator-->Mic-in. This lowers the signal enough so that loud music usually will not over load the preamp behind Mic-in.

Plus your R55, a full battery and an empty minidisc.

The mics you link to are not good mics for this purpose, or for any use with minidisc. They are so close to the unit that they will pick up every whir and click. You need mics on a cord--probably small ones if you intend to record gigs. You could attach the mics you are looking at to an extension cord, but then you'd have two extra connections--mic to plug, plug to cord--and every connection offers a chance for something to go wrong.

You want electret condenser mics, not dynamic mics, which need additional amplification.

Particularly when price is important, you are better off with omni (omnidirectional, often called binaural) mics. Look for a frequency range of 20-20,000 Hz, which is the same as what your minidisc can record. Given the choice between two mics with that frequency range, look at S/N ratio (Signal to Noise) and choose the higher one.

(The other kind of mics are cardioid mics, which are directional. Cheaper ones have a limited frequency response, cutting out bass.)

In Europe, try our own Greenmachine for both omni mics and a battery module.

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=14388

Plug-in power sends a little bit of voltage to the mic that it needs to operate. But mics do better with more voltage, and the voltage a battery box sends will make it harder for the mic to overload, allow better dynamic range, and provide just enough power to use with Line-in if you are recording amplified music.

The recordings you make will be stuck on the minidisc. To get them onto a computer, you would have to re-record them in real time by recording out of the headphone jack, or find someone with the MZ-RH1, the only unit that can upload them.

[Strungup]

hi all

im new here so first of all i'd like to say hi!

ive been thinking about getting into recording gigs, but all the technobbable has acted as a stumbling block. i know absolutely nothing about recording concerts so first of all i would like to know what is the best sought of equipment to use. i have a sony MZr55 MD recorder which has a 'mic(plug in power0' socket - does this mean i don't need a battery box?...

so apart from the MD player i need a microphone. as a newbie, i don't want to spend too much to start with. im a student so my budget is pretty tight. for example, would the below microphone (see link) provide a good recording?. also what are the key specs i should look for when buying a mic? - ive checked a few sites and under the microphones areas, there are tons of different types - condenser etc...what am i looking for?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/STEREO-PRO-MD-DAT-MI...bayphotohosting

so once i have the MD player and mic, what else do i need?

im in the UK, and would appreciate some info on good UK suppliers

many thanks

Alex

p.s. i will also check out the FAQ posts. sorry if im a bit all over the place, as i say, this is all very new to me

The straight "T" type of mic doesnt give good frontal rsponse . It gives a Hard Left/Right either a Y or an M/S ( Mid /Side )

On the R55 when you go to record , push Pause then slide the Record button over and hold it for two secs it will switch to Maual rec mode.

Then using the FFw/Rwnd buttons raise and lower the level watching the meter on the LCD ,

Second thing to note is Mic Sensitivity , for concerts you want it set to low , unless it is an acoustic gig with lower volume .

If you can spring for a nicer mic do it , you will not be very happy with a cheap mic .

There is an old saying " Speed costs.....how fast do you want to go ?"

The R55 is a cool MD , get a nicer mic .

I have probably 14 different stereo mics , and it comes down to 2 the AT822 from Audio Technica , and a Sony ECM 959a

For Concerts and outdoors the AT822 is the clear winner . Shop around and see if you can find a used one ( Not Likely )

[goldenbreast]

many thanks for the input

i will continue to look into this. meanwhile, on another site, a membert has recommended the following mic:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/STEREO-CARDIOID-MICR...1QQcmdZViewItem

what do you think? good starter?

cheers

Alex

p.s.

i found a UK site that has free delivery on their mics:

mini binaural mics ranging between £45-65

http://www.discountdiscs.co.uk/Merchant2/m...tegory_Code=mbs

cardioid mic - £73

http://www.discountdiscs.co.uk/Merchant2/m...tegory_Code=msc

Edited May 3, 2007 by goldenbreast

[andyschest]

I'm also just starting out. I'm thinking of getting two of these:

TIE-CLIP-MIC-LAPEL-VOICE-RECORDER-LAVALIER-MICROPHONE

The guy that makes them said he will join them to one plug. My only concern is it seems cheap, but that's not necessarily a reason not to get them.

[A440]

@goldenbreast

You need to think how you'll use the mics. Cardioid mics are directional. You have to have them pointed at the sound source. If you move around, you will hear the change of direction. Omnis are somewhat more forgiving.

They both have their uses. Omnis will basically pick up what your ears do. Personally, I like them--they give you a good three-dimensional feeling. But others prefer cardioids. If you expect to be recording where there's going to be noise behind you that you don't want to record--and if you can place the mics where they won't move--then cardioids might be good.

Get the sound sample from Church Audio and see what you think of the sound.

@Andyschest

TIE-CLIP-MIC-LAPEL-VOICE-RECORDER-LAVALIER-MICROPHONE

First, how is he joining them to one plug? By wiring them into a stereo plug, or by plugging two mono mics into a Y-shaped adapter? If it's the adapter method, I'd steer clear--it's just one more thing that can go wrong, and it will put strain on the mic jack of your minidisc unit.

These are the specs for his Customised Tech mics:

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS

Diameter, external: 6mm

Frequency response, lower limit: 50Hz

Frequency response, upper limit: 18kHz

Impedance: 1k

3.5mm stereo jack plug

Sensitivity: -65dB +/-3dB @ 1kHz

2 meter (6”) coaxial microphone cable

Power 1.5v -10v dc

And these are the specs for Sound Professionals BMC-1 and BMC-2

Frequency Response 20-20,000 Hz

Signal To Noise Ratio 58dB

Open Circuit Sensitivity -42dB

Maximum Input Sound Level 105dB/120dB

Dynamic Range 81dB/96dB

The difference frequency response (50-18000 vs. 20-20,000) means you'll get less bass from Customised. The bottom note on a piano is 27.5, so you'd lose most of the bottom octave of the piano. You'd also get slightly less crispness up above, but because every octave doubles the Hz, 18,000-20,000 is less of a gap in actual music than 20-50.

The difference in sensitivity, -65dB vs. -42dB, means you are going to need a louder signal into the Customised Tech mic. You might be OK with loud amplified music, but Sound Pros already consider -42 their low-sensitivity version. I don't understand how he can say that those are the most sensitive electret mics around unless his spec is a mistake. A higher number equals higher sensitivity. Since these are negative numbers, -42 is higher than -65.

Customised doesn't include a Signal-to-Noise ratio. It would be nice to know what it is--cheaper mics (and even Sony mics) can add noticeable noise of their own. If the sensitivity of the mic is low, and you are trying to record something relatively quiet, you will have to amplify the whole recording, including noise.

It would also be good to know if the Customized Tech mics will overload at loud volumes--105dB is LOUD, and 120 dB.(figure with battery box power) is painful. You might ask him about those specs. How does he expect this mics to be used? For interviews, which are relatively quiet, or for music, which may not be?

I don't reject cheap mics out of hand. The capsules used in the BMC-2 cost less than $3 each--the rest is other materials, labor and your trust that you're getting well-matched mics with some guarantee.

Does Customised have sound samples you can hear? That's still the best test.

Edited May 20, 2007 by A440

[goldenbreast]

@goldenbreast

You need to think how you'll use the mics. Cardioid mics are directional. You have to have them pointed at the sound source. If you move around, you will hear the change of direction. Omnis are somewhat more forgiving.

They both have their uses. Omnis will basically pick up what your ears do. Personally, I like them--they give you a good three-dimensional feeling. But others prefer cardioids. If you expect to be recording where there's going to be noise behind you that you don't want to record--and if you can place the mics where they won't move--then cardioids might be good.

Get the sound sample from Church Audio and see what you think of the sound.

thanks for the help. my immediate plans are to build the mic and battery box using greenmachine's guide. hopefully i will manage to do so and then try record a few gigs. i might just go to a local pub and record a band there. alternatively i might record a mates band in a practice room. basically, i want to get a feel for it all before i actually step out and attempt to record in a larger venue with security. it seems like it could be a bit fiddly...

im gonna get cracking with the building in a couple of weeks when i finish uni and will post pics (if i can) when finished

[andyschest]

Thanks for all the information A440. I've asked the seller a few questions based on your comments and he hasn't replied. I guess he's not used to customers quizzing him!