Recording concerts. Please comment

back in the day I had a small Lloyds portable reel to reel, 3 1/2 inch reels, could get 90 minutes onto a reel. Amazingly enough my NH1 is about 3 1/2 inches per side, and can get from about 90 minutes on up. plus ca change

I also had a portable Uher recorder (portable because it had a handle) weighed about 30 pounds. You could also do sound on sound, sound with sound, overdubbing etc right on the deck, loved that unit

Bob

Gosh, it's amazing, this has never been discussed here before.

Always a first time for a unique question!!!

Bob

mauri · July 28, 2007

Hi guys, I'm trying to get recording gear mainly for rock concerts, and after reading a lot of topics in this site I'd like to ask you some questions.

The options I'm considering are:

1 - iRiver T30 (line-in recording at 320Kbps with the right firmware) + Sound Professionals SP-PASM-2 integrated preamp-battery-mics

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/.../item/SP-PASM-2

2 - Sony MZ-M200, wich includes Sony ECM-DS70P mic

3 - Zoom H2

http://www.samsontech.com/products/product...cfm?prodID=1916

I live in South America and a friend of mine is going to New York for the next 2 weeks, so I will ask him to buy whatever I end up choosing. I have a limitation about what to buy, because I don't want to ask my friend to go to (or call) 2 o 3 stores to get different components; that's why I can not choose the configuration A440 recommends in the previous post (MD recorder + mic + battery module). I will ask him to buy the SP-PASM-2 (I can get the T30 somewhere else), or the MZ-M200, or the H2.

My questions are:

- What do you think about recording quality comparisson between the first and second options?

Will the 9V power of the PASM-2 box make it's mics perform better than the Sony mic that would only work with the plug-in power from the MD recorder?

What about mics quality? Are the PASM-2's mics good ones? Unluckily I haven't been able to find any recording sample made with this unit.

- In the specifications for the PASM-2 I don't see anything about low cut. Is it that a battery powered mic has no need of a low cut filter, or do the gain controls have to do with low cut, or is this filter missing?

- Microphone Madness offers a product similar to the PASM-2, the MM-PSMS-1. Do you have any experience with these two? Do you find any one better than the other?

http://store.microphonemadness.com/mmpreamsterm.html

- What can we expect from the Zoom H2? Knowing that it will work with 2 AA bateries, do you think it's integrated mics will have power enough to put up with a [may be quite loud] rock concert without sound distortions? If a concert is too loud, would it be enough to reduce the recording level? I know this unit is not in the stores yet (hope it does before my friend leaves NY), but it's performance in this respect should be similar to currently available units like the MicroTrack or the Edirol-09, or Zoom's H4, and may be you know about their behaviour. If it can handle a concert, the convenience of not having to deal with cables and connections is a plus. But sound quality is my main consideration.

Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer.

Best regards,

Mauri

Strungup · July 29, 2007

The question will be what are the availabilty of Blank MD's where you are ,

The Zoom isnt out yet , not till the end of August , I am still waiting on mine

iRiver I havent used so I cant say , but it would give direct access to you computer

If you can see getting Blank MD's in quantity , I would go for the MD , if not The Zoom , but since the Zoom isnt out yet

iRiver .......

If you want a good portable preamp get a Rolls MX34 http://www.rolls.com/products/mx34.php

The MMadness box , indicated a 58db s/n ratio , so expect some hiss /noise from it

Edited July 29, 2007 by Guitarfxr

A440 · July 29, 2007

Re: SP-PASM-2. The mics are built into the side of the preamp box. How are you going to use that at a concert? Stand there holding up the box in your hand? Might attract a bit of suspicion, not to mention your arm is going to get tired. You want small mics that you can unobtrusively clip to something like a shirt, glasses, hat, etc. The PASM-2 mics are probably the same capsules as the BMC-2--they've got the same specs.

You don't need a preamp for rock concerts. The problem isn't amplifying quiet sounds, which is what a preamp does best. The problem is not getting overloaded by loud sounds, something a preamp would make worse. Rock concerts are so loud that all you need is a battery module. (For classical concerts recorded through line-in, you might want a preamp, but you could probably just record Mic-->Mic-in. )

You don't need low cut if you record through line-in at the right level. Low cut is to prevent the preamp at the mic jack (not the line-in jack, which has none) from overloading. (I also think low cut is excellent in women's blouses.) The idea is to get an accurate recording. If the recording is too bassy because the sound engineer thought that was a good sound, you can lower the bass on playback. But if you never got the bass in the original recording, you can't restore it afterward.

The DS-70P mic is not worth the price. It's fairly big, it's got little bass response (only goes down to 100 Hz) and it's noisy. Get the MZ-RH1 and a better mic.

You won't find Sound Professionals in stores--it has to be mail ordered. Your friend can easily do that from New York if he's going to be here for a week or so. If I remember correctly, Mic Madness was formed by former Sound Professionals guys, so the quality is probably similar. Again, you won't find either brand in stores.

I have a T30 that I sometimes use as a backup recorder, and its interface is so confusing--lots of menus, non-intuitive--that I have sometimes not gotten any recording at all. It has no level meter to show you that you're recording, and it has no track marking. I also find that its mp3 recording just doesn't have the richness of Hi-SP, much less PCM. Since they are not made or sold in stores any more, you'd have to get one on eBay, and they are worth the $65 or so that they cost, but not as a replacement for Hi-MD.

MicroTrack, Edirol R09 and Samson H4 are all different, and may well be different from the H2. Someone is going to have to try one. The H2's built-in mics present the old problem--how are you going to use them at a concert? Hold the unit in your hand? Etc.

mauri · July 29, 2007

Thank you for your responses!

@Guitarfxr:

I believe 58db is not the specification for the preamp but for the integrated mics, wich is the same as the mics in the PASM-2.

About MDs availability, no, I don't have that here, but I could eventualy get my friend to buy a pack, or try to import them later.

@A440:

The visibility of the unit is something that I could deal with.

You don't need low cut if you record through line-in at the right level. Low cut is to prevent the preamp at the mic jack (not the line-in jack, which has none) from overloading.

If you record through mic-in jack (wich has internal preamp) you need low cut, but if you record through line-in with external preamp you don't need it? I don't get it...

Ok, I will not consider the DS70P. But I can't find the MZ-RH1 in any store, eBay seems the only way to go, and I can't bother my friend with an auction transaction, and could never be sure about what I would be buying (it's a used unit)... too risky.

Thank you again, best regards,

Mauri

Strungup · July 29, 2007

Hey Mauri . the 58 db S/N ratio means that if you have that much noise at the source , it will be on your recording , I am a recording engineer ,

At ANY point before the recording medium , wherever noise is generated it will be added to and multiplied by the next stage and its noise .

So if the mics are Quiet but the preamp is noisy = You have noise

If the Mics are noisy and the pream is quiet -= You have noise

A Good preamp , and Good Mics = Less Noise

Any noise before the recorder is captured By the recorder .

I sent you a link to the Rolls MX34 . Did you read the specs on it ? 110 db S/N ratio and it will supply 18 volts Phantom for much nicer kind of mic

which you might possibly obtain in the future

Edited July 29, 2007 by Guitarfxr

A440 · July 30, 2007

@A440:

The visibility of the unit is something that I could deal with.

If you record through mic-in jack (wich has internal preamp) you need low cut, but if you record through line-in with external preamp you don't need it? I don't get it...

But I can't find the MZ-RH1 in any store

You're right, it looks like the MZ-RH1 is disappearing from stores. BH Photo, which used to have them as of last week, now shows Out of Stock. They do have the Edirol R09 and Zoom H4.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4458...ereo_Field.html

If your friend is going to be in one place for a few days, he could also place an order for the NH700 with Minidisc Access.

http://www.minidiscaccess.com/item.html?PRID=1553220

Visibility is one thing for the PASM, but so is placement and handling noise. If you leave it on a table at a concert it may pick up vibration of the table, so you have to leave it sitting on something soft. Is the separation of the mics optimum, or just a matter of the dimensions of the box? I couldn't say. I just think it's a very impractical design, especially since all you need is the mics.

You'd use the low cut filter to prevent the preamp from overloading (and, at the same time, to cut the oomph out of your music). If you're not running through the preamp--that is, using Line-in--then you don't have to worry about the preamp overloading because it's not in the circuit. The bass that overloads the preamp usually won't bother Line-in unless it is also caving in your eardrums.

All preamps are not the same, and preamps in little portable equipment typically have to make compromises somewhere. They may be noisier, they may not be able to handle bass, etc.

An external preamp is different from whatever little preamp can be squeezed into the MD unit. Presumably it is a little more robust, since it is larger and runs on its own power (typically a 9V battery rather than the 1.5V that is rotating the disc, running the ADC converter and preamplifying your mic input). Assuming it is well made, an external preamp should be able to handle more bass than the minuscule preamp in the MD unit.

But let me repeat myself: You don't need a preamp to record anything amplified. A preamp amplifies the signal. Loud music doesn't need to be amplified--it needs to be tamed. The battery module via Line-in will do that. On the rare occasions when I have tried running loud music through a preamp into Line-in, it overloaded at anything but the minimum setting for the preamp--which, basically, was sending power to the mics and not amplifying the signal at all, same as a battery module.

Edited July 30, 2007 by A440

greenmachine · July 30, 2007

In my experience, noise is usually only an issue when recording quiet sounds that need lots of pre-amplification, whereas when recording loud sounds everything, including the noise is attenuated and thus hardly audible. Professional gear really shines in quiet situations, just like in photography/filming where you will notice the most significant differences between consumer and pro gear in low light.

mauri · July 30, 2007

Guitarfxr:

Yes, I read the specs of the MX34, but it seems to be something bigger in size than what I was looking for. About its SNR, it looks like it is lower than the PASM-2 (115 dBu, though I don't know what the "u" means).

The mics are probably the same as the BMC-2, wich A440 recommends (surely for a budget solution, not for a pro). I was going to ask if they were too noisy, but maybe greenmachine has given a clue about that. Anyway, I would like to know wich mics would you recommend to be used with the MX34, if they don't range in the hundreds of US$.

Obviously every question I make is with the biggest respect for each one of you!

A440:

Now I understood about the filter.

In your last paragraph you say something that is one of the things that makes me consider de PASM: if I record soft sounds (a classical guitar concert, for example) I use the preamp, if I record loud sounds, I can leave it at 0 gain and have it work as a battery module.

After all your suggestions, and given the limitations I have (about bothering my friend with buying things from different stores), I wonder if there's a store where one can find the MD recorder, a battery box and a good mic, all in the same place. Other choice could be buying the H4, wich I believe makes better recordings with the integrated mics than the Edirol, but is way bigger in size. And the last one wold be the T30, with poorer quality, but if it is what I can get and afford, I'll try to enjoy it

Thank you all!

Edited July 30, 2007 by mauri

mauri · July 30, 2007

P.D.: MiniDisc Access has MD recorders, battery modules, and mics. The MM-BSM-7 looks like a good mic, doesn't it?

They also have battery modules with adjustable bass roll-off function.

Also found the "iKey Plus" portable USB recorder in Sound Professionals. I'll be searching for reviews.

Strungup · July 30, 2007

The MX -34 will let you use Balanced Microphones , (XLR cables) so your choices are pretty wide , Most of the Audio Tecnica Mics will run on 9 Volts phantom and up so they would have no proble with this preamp ,

A good place to research a lot of mics without having to search out a bunch of different webpages, is FullCompass

http://www.fullcompass.com they have an online catalouge with full specs for everything as well as a Basic price ( what you see online wont nesseccarily be the price you pay , you call them or email about a thing , and you can get some options) "B" stock , returns, Blemished etc.

Edited July 30, 2007 by Guitarfxr

A440 · July 30, 2007

The iKey plus is considerably larger than your other alternatives.

Yes, the BMC-2 aren't for pro quality. They're for small size and sneaking into concerts. Noise is absolutely not a problem with them with amplified music, and is pretty undectectable generally. Look in the Gallery for my album and you can hear a lot of BMC-2 recordings--including an unaccompanied, unamplified choir at Westminster Abbey. You can also hear other folks' recordings with assorted other equipment on their albums, too. I don't know what quality you are striving for. Live concert recording has lots of limitations: the sound in the room, audience noise, the necessity (or lack of it) for stealth. If you can set up your recording equipment openly, you've got a lot more options (or should I say option$$$).

Want to see how obsessed folks can get?

http://www.taperssection.com

I don't know any store that sells battery modules--I've never seen them outside mail order. If you find a store in NYC, I'd love to know about it. The problem is that professional sound recorders use hard-drive recorders, phantom power sources and higher quality mics, so pro sound stores don't usually bother with the affordable amateur stuff.

Here's a professional sound store I ran across when I was looking for windscreens for microphones--you might look through their catalog. http://www.pro-sound.com

A preamp would probably be useful for a classical guitar concert, true. However, you could also just run that through mic-in, because the built-in preamp is pretty good by itself. I once compared it with the Reactive Sounds portable preamp, about the size of the MD recorder itself, and the MD preamp was just as quiet. The Sound Pro preamp I briefly tried--an older model without a no-gain option--only overloaded when I tried to record a concert with it, so I can't offer any experience with that.

There's one more consideration: the MD recorder, because it is spinning up the disc, makes little whirring noises of its own. I doubt you'd hear it in a recital hall at a concert, but with a very attentive audience you might. If classical recording is your focus you might well be better off with a flash recorder with no moving parts.

mauri · July 31, 2007

Guitarfxr, thanks for the link to Full Compass. I browsed the site, but couldn't find mics that were appropiate for taking them to concerts...

A440, thanks for the link to Tapers Section, it's a very nice resource.

I have found some sample recordings made with the iKey Plus, they all seem to lack bass.

I searched further for information on the H4, R09 and MT, but they present important drawbacks. H4 is very big and not good quality (read what some users say about it in http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,85918.0.html and what some technicians say about it in http://www.sonicstudios.com/zoomh4rv.htm). MicroTrack has corrected most of it's faults with the latest firmware update, but I don't like the fact that it has no replaceable battery. I think the R09 is what people like most, but it's build quality is poor (they say it looks like cheap plastic and many users report broken input jacks in the very first uses). And buying a R09 + SD card + battery box and mics would cost more than $500.

I think the NH700 has the best price-performance ratio by far. What I don't like about it is that it's display has no backlight (am I wrong?) and that a solid state unit is preferable to the minidisc mechanism. I'll wait for the H2 some days hoping it's better than the H4 for what I need, and then try to make my decision based on all that you have kindly suggested.

Guys, you are so generous when you take time to reply and share your knowledge, all that I can say is THANK YOU!

Best regards,

Mauri

A440 · August 1, 2007

I think the NH700 has the best price-performance ratio by far. What I don't like about it is that it's display has no backlight (am I wrong?) and that a solid state unit is preferable to the minidisc mechanism.
Mauri

That's why we diehards are still using minidisc, and that's why MD is probably near the of its life. Someone, somewhere, has to make a sensible flash recorder soon. If it's not the H2--and yeah, I also read the reviews of the H4 so I'm not holding my breath for the H2--then maybe another company will figure out some basic recording needs, or M-Audio and Edirol will heed their feedback for new models. The electronics exist--someone just has to put them together.

You can get the RM-MC40ELK remote, a useful add-on, for $57 on eBay. It's backlit (though not very bright) and displays (and adjusts) recording level. When I'm at a show, the NH700 stays hidden in my pocket and I use the remote for levels and track marks. You still have to start recording and set to Manual volume on the unit itself, but after that you can leave the unit in Rec-Pause and start actual recording with the remote. The remote is not ideal, however--it can add low level noise of its own. You wouldn't want to use it at a classical concert, though at a rock show its tiny noise is irrelevant.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-RM-MC40ELK-Hi-MD-...1QQcmdZViewItem

Up above, you asked about the T30. It was discontinued a few years ago, so Ebay is the best chance. There's an Iriver board at http://www.misticriver.net .

mauri · August 2, 2007

Thank you A440, I knew about misticriver.net, that's where I learned that the problem with the 96Kbps recording limit with the UMS firmware could be solved going back to MTP.

I found some tests a french guy has done with the Samsung YP-T7FX mp3 player.

http://stephane.aubert.free.fr/SAMSUNG.YP-T7FX/ - (you may go to babel.altavista.com to get it translated)

This unit records at 192Kbps. He connected preamp and mics to it, put a cd on his stereo system, and put the Samsung 1 meter away from the speakers, and I think the recordings he managed to get are not bad at all. I don't know what the difference would be between this scenario and a concert in a theater or club. One shoud have to experiment a lot with the preamp gain level (if needed) and the recording level setting in the mp3 player.

I wonder if the mics and the preamp he used would have much difference with the ones we've talked about in this thread. The mic capsules are Panasonic WM60A. The MM-BSM-7, for example, has "Panasonic 61 series" capsules. Don't know about SP-BMC2.

By the way, A440, do you have any sample recording made with the T30 that you could share? If this forum's galleries are not the right place to upload it, may be you could use rapidshare or megaupload.

Thanks in advance...

A440 · August 3, 2007

As it turns out, I do seem to have some live music recorded on the T30. I have no idea what band or under what circumstances it was recorded, but apparently I was there. I'd assume it's with BMC-2 mics and the Mic Madness battery module. PM me and I'll give you a link. It's decent but not thrilling.

Those Samsung recordings do sound good. But they were recorded from a home stereo that wasn't cranked up to the levels I regularly hear at concerts--so there's no guarantee you wouldn't get preamp distortion or overload of your recorder through the line-in jack at a louder event. Also, note the the size of his preamp. I wouldn't want to try to get that into a concert undetected, but maybe stealth is not a consideration for you.

A decent preamp will cost you upwards of $100. I'd still rather deal with a little battery module.

Looks like Samsungs are on Ebay for around $60 for a 1GB unit, while 1GB Iriver T30 is around $55. So you could get either one and play with it.

The specs for the WM-60 are on the French guy's page.

Here are specs for the WM-61a.

http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dk...l?name=P9925-ND

And here are specs for the BMC-2.

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/...=specifications

Looks like they might be using the WM-60a if they're using Panasonic capsules--S/N ratio is 58dB, not 62 as with the WM-61a. But you could easily contact them and ask--they're very responsive.

mauri · August 3, 2007

A440, I already sent you a PM, thanks!

When you talk about possible line-in overload, it's only in the case that you don't use a battery module, am I wrong?

After browsing TapersSection I see that one of their prefered recorders are those from iRiver's H series. I am considering the H120 right now (I saw one in a local auction store); though it's not a solid state device (it has a hard disk), but it has very nice functions: PCM recording, recording level monitor (wich is the most important thing missing in the T30, I think), etc. It works with Rockbox firmware.

In the H120 user's manual it reads that "Volume level can not be controlled on the H120 while recording from an external device.", I supose Rockbox fixes that, but I'll have to ask the guys at TS.

If I end up buying that one, I could spend some more $ on the mics. I found Core Sound's binaurals, wich include a battery box. The reviews are possitive about them (well, they should be, they are expensive).

I'll keep on investigating, hoping it is useful for someone else too.

Thank you!

A440 · August 3, 2007

Line-in takes a stronger signal than mic-in because there's no internal preamp to boost it. I've never even gotten a signal from mic straight into Line-in--it needs the power of the battery module. I have overloaded with an external preamp into Line-in.

Ah, the H120. People love them, and reading about them convinced me to get one myself when I snapped up a bargain on Ebay. It's OK, but I've never really warmed to it--perhaps because I was already used to Hi-MD.

The H120 may indeed be a good solution for you if it comes with the proper accessories.

Good points: Drag-and-drop transfer--a big plus. Looks like an iPod and doesn't arouse suspicion. Thanks to Rockbox, it now has many features of minidisc, like track marking and on-the-fly level adjustment.

Bad points: Heavier than MD (wear it on a belt and it can drag down your pants).Interface takes some getting used to--like MD, it's best with the remote, and like MD it has its own confusing menu options.

Built-in mic is pretty useless for anything beyond voice memo, since it gives an incredibly lifelike rendition of the disc spinning up.

Built-in rechargeable battery. It needs to be recharged after a day's use (but will last for a full day of recording). You MUST get the H120 charger or the very few compatible chargers mentioned on misticriver. Make sure your seller includes it or it's not a good deal. Some chargers with plugs that fit the H120 will completely fry the battery.

And of course, it is a hard drive. Drop it or have it go bad and you lose all 20GB unless you've been very conscientious about uploading.

I never did a double-blind test, but I thought there was more indefinable presence to an MD recording--possibly just prejudice on my part.

Forget the H120 user manual. Rockbox makes it irrelevant. It wasn't until well into the H120's life that it was usable as a good recorder--before that, it had clicks and dropped samples that made it a nonstarter as a music recorder. Rockbox has fixed and improved everything, but as with all open-source works in progress, you might download a daily build of Rockbox that doesn't work right.

And yes, I have some H120 recordings, but I don't have the H120 with me at the moment. I'll PM you another link in the next few days.

Someday I guess I should do A/B/C recordings of the same source with my various toys. Haven't gotten around to it yet....

Core Sound was a pioneer in stealth recording. Some people swear by them, some say they're overpriced. I wasn't impressed with the Low Cost Cardioids I had, but those weren't their higher-end mics. About the binaurals: How big is the battery box and are you content to carry it around? Are the mics hard-wired to the battery box or can they be used separately? Think about the ways you'll be using them.

Edited August 3, 2007 by A440

mauri · August 3, 2007

Ok, I got it about the line-in overload.

About built-in mic: I don't plan to use it.

About battery: yes, that's a big minus... but I read in TS that you can change it, the thing is getting a new one. I'll do a search.

The H120 I may buy comes with the charger.

I started a thread in TS asking about the level meter adjustment before reading your last post, and it has led to another question: it seems the unit does not have MIC-IN? Untill now I havent been able to get TS users understand what I ask for, don't know if it is my confussion or my bad english, but will keep trying.

I'll wait for your PM with the H120 samples (couldn't hear the T30 sample yet because I'm at work and I can't download mp3 files here).

About the battery box in the CS mics: it should fit into a pocket, I think (look at http://www.core-sound.com/mics/1.php ), and whether I use the mics through mic-in or line-in it's always better to have the battery connected, am I wrong? I don't see any use where I would need them without power, but I have no experience at all and may be missing something...

A440 · August 4, 2007

it seems the unit does not have MIC-IN?
whether I use the mics through mic-in or line-in it's always better to have the battery connected, am I wrong?

The H120 has only a line-in jack, but can be set to what it calls External Mic mode in its original firmware--that is, a mode that provides a little bit of power at the jack, plug-in power, and preamplifies the signal coming in. Rockbox may remove that option, or replace it with something that just turns the gain to max.

Either way, using the "External Mic" setting of the H120 gives you a very noisy, staticky signal, nowhere near as good as the MD's mic input, if it gives you any signal at all. It may be doing something different from a preamp in technical terms. It seems to add gain to both low-level signal plus its accompanying noise rather than directly amplifying the signal, or something like that. I'm not an electronics expert. But using the mic-in setting on the H120 is really a last resort, and may not be strong enough for all mics if you're recording something as quiet as speech.

I use the battery module with Line-in. I haven't tried it with Mic-in because Mic-in is so sensitive already.

Edited August 4, 2007 by A440

mauri · August 4, 2007

Finally a TS user explained that you just control your gain, and that's it. If it's a quiet sound, you turn the gain up until the H120 registers it. It goes from 0db to 45db, if he remembers well. He also said that at 24db it started to get noisy. I searched at http://freesound.iua.upf.edu form sample recordings with the H120 and mic only, some of them had important hiss, somo others sounded really good. I supose it depends greatly on the mics used.

So, I just bought the H120 in a local auction site, hope to get it in about 2 weeks. Minidisc is way better, but my friend wouldn't be able to bring a minidisc unit because he will be buying some other things for himself, and I don't want to make it riskier for him when he goes to the custom office when arriving. But I will ask him to get the mics, that's something that doesn't call much attention.

One more thing that I don't understand about mics: the CS Binaurals specs read "The modifications add more than 20 dB to the microphones' undistorted dynamic range, flatten and extend their low frequency response, and all but eliminate recorder overload distortion". But if they pick up more db's, wouldn't that have more chance of overloading the recorders preamp? How do they extend low frequency response and eliminate distortion?

Also from the specs: "Be sure to disconnect the microphones from the battery box when they are not in use". So, you can disconnect them.

But I just read a topic in TS about a guy that found the CSB's sounding "hollow" for indoor events, that really scared me... what if I spend $230 on these and then I don't like what I get... Surely with cheaper mics his result would have been poorer, but I don't know, may be I'll go with a cheaper option.

I'm looking forward for having all the equipment and make my first recording, and put it in the galleries to let you know how things worked!

mauri · August 5, 2007

Ok, after reading and listening, I'll choose between these mics:

Sound Professionals BMC-12

Freq. response: 20-20,000 Hz

SNR: 60db

Dynamic range: 81dB (96db with battery module)

Max. SPL: 110dB (125db with battery module)

$100

Microphone Madness BSM-7

Freq. response: 20-20,000 Hz

SNR: 62db

Dynamic range: 95dB

Max. SPL: 105dB (120db with battery module)

$65

Church Audio pro binaurals

Freq. response: 20-40,000 Hz

SNR: 68db

Dynamic range: ?

Max. SPL: 120db (more with battery module)

$80

Church Audio mini pro binaurals

Freq. response: 20-40,000 Hz

SNR: 73db

Dynamic range: ?

Max. SPL: 120db (more with battery module)

$130

And will buy the corresponding battery module.

Higher SNR is always better, isn't it?

Considering price/performance, I think I should go for the CA pro...

I won't bother you any more, you've been so kind.

May be by September I'll be uploading my first sample

Correction: When bundled with the ST20A preamp, the CA pro binaural's specifications read "S/N is 58 db Frequency response of the mics are 20hz to 20khz". E-mailed Church Audio about this.

Edited August 5, 2007 by mauri

A440 · August 5, 2007

Regarding the Church Audio mics, look at the size of his mics. They may be bigger than the corresponding Core Audio or Sound Professionals mics, if that matters to you. I have some Church Audio mics, an older model he (Chris Church) no longer makes, and they're good and very well-made--a bit stronger in the bass than corresponding Sound Professionals mics. But they didn't come with clips so I don't use them that much. Is he including clips now? They are essential.

Yes, higher SNR is better. Even with the lower ones, though, noise from the mics may be imperceptible. I think--someone correct me if I'm wrong--that every 6 DB doubles the volume. So 58 dB is just less than two to the 10th power, around 1/1000.

One more thing that I don't understand about mics: the CS Binaurals specs read "The modifications add more than 20 dB to the microphones' undistorted dynamic range, flatten and extend their low frequency response, and all but eliminate recorder overload distortion". But if they pick up more db's, wouldn't that have more chance of overloading the recorders preamp? How do they extend low frequency response and eliminate distortion?

Overload can happen in multiple places. It can happen in the mics themselves--and in what seems like a paradox, more power makes that less likely. When the mic gets more power, it can take more volume without overloading. It's not sending an extra 20 dB into the jack. It's just that the mic itself is accepting the extra 20dB without overloading.

From Core Sound: "They are electrically and mechanically modified to provide a more linear sound-to-voltage transfer function and to eliminate mechanical resonances in their bass response. " I think with the "mechanical" bit he's saying that he's stopped the mic capsules themselves from vibrating to loud low sounds.

I don't know what he's talking about with "recorder overload distortion."

I'm pretty sure Core Sound has a month-long trial period--Sound Pros and Microphone Madness do--but I suggest you call their toll-free number and make sure.

Enjoy the H120--I think you will. Get a remote if you can, maybe on Ebay.

You can crank up the gain on the H120, but the poster is right--over 24 and it's static city. You might need a preamp if your classical guitar concerts are unamplified, though the battery box may be enough. Only actual experience will tell you.

Hope you're a happy tweaker--it sounds like you are--because Rockbox rewards tweaking, like switching the GUI. (You can even choose a different GUI for the remote--wish MD had that option.)

I wouldn't let one poster on TS daunt you--there are a lot of cranks there (and here too of course...)

Most people are satisfied with their digital recorders. They get used to the quirks and make the unit work for them. That's what we do with MD, and that's what the iRiver people do with their gadgets. Different quirks. But the recorders are just remarkable little devices by and large, and the most crucial variables are mics and mic placement. Get good mics, put them where the room sounds good, use approrpriate settings and you'll get a good live recording.

Edited August 5, 2007 by A440

mauri · August 7, 2007

I had sent and e-mail asking Church Audio about the differences in the specs of the pro binaurals, about the mini pro binaurals pictures that didn't show clips nor windscreens, and about the battery box that didn't show the cable from the box to the line-in jack, but they haven't replied yet. I liked the specs of their mini binaurals, but haven't been able to find any sample recording, and read more than one user of TS suggesting other people not to use them for indoor concerts because they were too bassy.

I think I'll go for the SP-BMC-12 binaurals, and the SP-SPSB-10 or SP-SPSB-8 battery boxes. They use different batteries, 12V and 9V respectively. I believe most of the mics I've seen need 1.5-10V power, could the 12V harm them? (The Audio Technica capsules seem to accept 1.5V as well as 9-52V phantom power, though.)

Please have a look at the SPSB-8 picture, it looks like the roll-of controls are glued to the outside?

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/mas_asse...l/SP-SPSB-8.jpg

This boxes can optionally include bass roll-off, should I opt for it? Could it be usefull if you are in a room where there is too much bass? If you don't use it, can you always adjust the low frequencies of your recordings with audio processing software, like Audacity?

I heard some great news today: Joao Bosco (GREAT brazilian guitarist and singer) will be playing in my country in 4 weeks, in an acoustic concert, just guitar and voice, something that will resemble his "Unplugged" cd (I invite you to have a listen to it, it's amazing). What a lovely occasion for my first recording!! And I promisse you I'll upload some of it to the galleries

A440 · August 7, 2007

You should email Sound Pros about the 9V-12V question. They'll probably respond fairly quickly. Chris Church at Church Audio seems to be pretty much a one-man operation, but he should respond sooner or later.

Joao Bosco is incredible, I've seen him. Hope you get a great recording.

I am not a fan of bass roll-off. I don't see the point unless you're worried about overloading. I was just at a concert with huge bass. I ran my BMC-2 and Microphone Madness Classic Mini battery module into the NH700 at about 16/30 manual volume and there is no distortion. And I was wearing earplugs.

With bass roll-off, perhaps you would get good at judging exactly which cutoff frequency would improve the recording. But if you misjudge, then you can't get back what you rolled off. And yes, you can always change the EQ on playback.

Greenmachine, who is an electronics expert, and I, who just press buttons and hope for the best, agree that bass rolloff is unnecessary with Line-in recording. But there is a small population here of concert recorders.

Mauri, I suggest you ask on TS who uses bass roll-off with line-in recordings and why. Or search around for it, preferably to find links to recordings so you can judge for yourself.

Sandmandgp · August 22, 2007

I also sent and email to Chris Church but got no response. Does anyone know if he´s on vacation?

Thanks!

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