No bass while recording live?

[superboy]

I've tried recording with my RH10 several times, and the bass never comes through. I've been reading here and it sounds like this is a common problem with mindisc recorders. However, something doesn't make sense. Here is a quot from one of the FAQ's:

Music is the trickiest thing to record. The preamp in the MD recorder is pretty good except for one main problem: It can't handle bass. So for most music the signal coming into it has to be lowered so that it won't simply overload.

There are a few ways to do this. The cheapest and most portable one is to use an attenuator, which attenuates (lowers) the signal across the board. Say hello to the Radio Shack Headphone Volume Control, $6.59 anywhere.

I don't get it. I'm not getting much of any bass at all, so if I attenuate the signal, won't I get even less of the bass in the recording? Shouldn't I be trying to amplify it?

So I don't really know what to do, should I get a battery box for ~$50 or one of those cheap radio shack headphone volume gizmos? Again, it sounds like I'm having the common problem people have with bass, it's just that the solution is not making sense to me right now.

Thanks for any help.

[greenmachine]

It's probably the mic. Most Sony mics are low sensitivity (low output), which can be good or bad, depending on your use and tend to roll off low frequencies. With a different mic (particularly with omnidirectional mics) the situation can be totally different.

[superboy]

Actually, I have a non-Sony (I forgot the brand) binaural microphone also, and that results in recordings with barely any bass the same way. It's not the mic from what I can tell. I'm literally getting almost zero bass, while everything else is coming through fine. Like I said before, it seems like it's a very common MD problem. The thing that's getting me confused is the reasoning I stated above. To me, it doesn't make sense that the way to get more bass is to attenuate the bass signal.

[A440]

This once happened to me when the mic wasn't plugged all the way into the jack. Make sure it is fully plugged in and rotate it a little bit to make sure it's making contact.

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Otherwise, it is not a common problem that minidiscs don't record bass. Just the opposite: the problem is that they are hypersensitive to bass, which causes distortion--hence the attenuator or battery box. So some microphones are made to cut off the bass well above where they should--avoiding distortion by wrecking fidelity. Also, microphones made for voice recording don't bother to pick up deep bass because human voices (except death metal bands) don't include it. Probably your mics are among them.

A good way to tell if it's the mic is to plug the mic into something else that records--like for instance your computer. Download Audacity (here's the Windows page : http://audacity.sourceforge.net/download/windows ) . Make sure the input on Audacity is the mic jack (the drop-down menu under the fast-forward button should say Microphone), then plug in your mic and put something on your stereo that has bass and push the red Record button on Audacity. Play it back and listen. You can also Analyze the frequencies. I suspect you'll find that your mic cuts out frequencies below 100 Hz.

Try that, and see what you get. If Audacity gives you all the bass you wanted, then the problem may be in your mic jack.

Edited August 15, 2007 by A440

[superboy]

Hmm...ok. So if I understand it correctly, my problem is a little different than what is usually talked about. So when the FAQ's talk about a bass problem, the problem is that the MD recorder picks up too much bass and the recording is clipped/distorted. Yes, I have the opposite problem...I'm not picking up the bass much at all. The two mics I have tried so far are the Sony ECM-MS907 and a binaural mic (not sure of the brand). If you want to hear a sample of the recording I've done, listen to the track here:

http://www.myspace.com/rootdownorgantrio

If you can hear anything interesting in there, please let me know. I will test the mic on the computer and see what I get.

[greenmachine]

Ever heard about room resonances? You may have placed the mic in a low frequency weak spot. Try moving it a bit around and see what happens. Use your ears to find a well balanced spot.

Edited August 15, 2007 by greenmachine

[A440]

the problem is that the MD recorder picks up too much bass.... The two mics I have tried so far are the Sony ECM-MS907 and a binaural mic (not sure of the brand).

The MD will record 20-20,000 Hz. But only if that's what your mic picks up.

The frequency range of the ECM-MS907 is 100-15,000 Hz. The lowest note on a piano is 27.5 Hz, and electric bass or organ may well go below that, not to mention subwoofers. Because each doubling of frequency is an entire octave, your mic is missing two octaves of response (25-50 and 50-100 Hz). There's your missing bass. (On the other hand, the difference between 15,000 and 20,000 is less than an octave, though you may be sacrificing a hint of crispness up there.)

http://www.minidisco.com/Sony-ECM-MS907

One reason Sony made the mic that way may have been that once upon a time, when Sony cared about MD, it was advertised as compatible with minidisc--which is to say, it wouldn't overload the preamp with bass. But the sound you get is the result of that choice.

I don't believe the MD records more bass than is put in. That is, if you have a mic with flat frequency response (not biased toward any particular register) and record without distortion, your playback will not suddenly have mega bass. But the tiny, low-voltage preamp tucked into the MD--which is fine for what it's made for, voice recording through a mic-- just can't deal with those low frequencies.

[boojum]

I would say it is that damned mic. I have gotten excellent bass with an SP-CMC-4U which is an AT-853U capsule rigged to work as a stand-alone mic. It feeds and RH1, but I know it gets fine bass feeding an old MZ-N1 I have in SP mode. I have a SONY ECM-MS957 which actually feeds pretty good bass to the recorder, either one records it well.

Cheers

[superboy]

A440, thanks for that great explanation, I think you may have hit it on the head. I need to find out what the brand and model of my binaural mics are, and I'll post back. I might have been lying when I said I have the same problem with the binaural mics...I don't think I can say that for sure yet.

Thanks for the mic suggestions, boojum. I'll consider those if I don't have anything else to cut it (although they're a little expensive).

[A440]

I'll say it again: I get very good recordings with Sound Professionals BMC-2 mics, $49. Since I got mine they have introduced various similarly priced mics, apparently made from the same pickups, in other housings, like earbuds, that are even more stealthy. But try your current binaurals, superboy.

[superboy]

Ok, cool. I don't know what mics I have, but I do know I got them from Sound Professionals. Are there any model numbers or anything anywhere?

[A440]

Ok, cool. I don't know what mics I have, but I do know I got them from Sound Professionals. Are there any model numbers or anything anywhere?

No model numbers on those little things. You could look at the photos on the site. If they're gumdrop-sized and you've had them for a while, they're probably BMC-2.

[superboy]

OK, I got a chance to record another gig at the coffee house. This time I used my new RH1 with the BMC-2 mics. I used the mic-in jack (would line-in be better)? I clipped the mics a few inches in front of one of the PA speakers, and set the recording levels and recorded. I got a great recording this time, much better. I got the bass fine this time. Everything sounded great. So, that mic really is good, thanks A440. I've been just not using them all this time because they just don't look all that sexy I guess, but they are great mics.

My question now is, how do I get a more crisp recording? Would using the line-in with a battery pack be better? It's a jazz trio with vocals, so it's not loud at all. The ears are never ringing, and most people can talk comfortably over it. Anyway, I'm pretty pleased with the drastic improvement so far.

[A440]

Sounds like a dramatic improvement--good for you.

I'm glad you didn't overload, because with music you run that risk going straight into Mic-in.

I record nearly everything with my BMC-2 into a Microphone Madness Classic Mini battery module into Line-In, and in fact my last attempt at straight mic-in recording, a church organ, was a disaster.

Hard to define what you mean by crisp. If you feel like the high end is muffled, try placing the mics someplace different, probably higher up (but it depends on the room). They can only record what they pick up, and maybe you had them too close to the woofer of the PA.

But if you mean there's a hint of static, that's the mic preamp at work, and you probably would get a slightly cleaner recording by going mic-->battery box-->Line-in. You'd have to experiment. With music so quiet you can record through Mic-in, you'd probably have to set the level somewhere around 20/30, maybe even up to 25/30. I haven't looked at the warranties lately for Sound Professionals and Microphone Madness, but you could probably get what's essentially a 30-day trial on a battery module for the price of shipping. And for anything louder, the battery module would definitely come in handy.

You can't record into Line-in without a battery module (or a preamp).

[superboy]

Yeah, I don't even know what I meant by crisp. I just heard you talking about line-in and the battery box, and I was wondering how that would improve the sound. I thought the recordings were good. I placed the mic clipped, hanging on a curtain a few inches above and in front of one of the two PA speakers. I was right next to it, so the recording sounded pretty close to what I was hearing. I guess it would be better to place the mic more central to the two speakers to get a more balanced sound. The only problem with that is the mic would be closer to the drums, and the drums would totally overwhelm any other instrument. From my experiences, the sensitivity of the mic is the following: drums>female vocals>piano>bass. So, I want to place my mic furthest away from the drums and closest to the bass player. Of course, since everything but the drums goes through the PA, it's best to get the pre-adjusted balanced sound from the PA with the mic close to it, and pick up the drums from far away, and that's essentially what I did.

There was no static in the recording, so I don't know if the battery box would help get a cleaner recording. Unless, by cleaner, you mean it would pick up the sounds in more detail. I thought the bass could have been more defined. However, the PA speakers are pretty cheap, so that may be the cause of that, and not the mic.

When I get a chance, I'll try to post a link to the recordings somewhere.

[greenmachine]

Recording directly into line-in (via battery box to power the mics) is a way to use a (much) lower gain in high SPL situations where the preamp would overload. As long as there is no clipping, there is no need to reduce the gain - just use the mic-in.

Edited October 3, 2007 by greenmachine