taper420 Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 (edited) So I saw this discussion going on over at taperssection. Someone did a frequency analysis of files transferred over a Rh1 USB connection into sonicstage, and files transferred using a legacy deck with digital out transferred in real time.The single report states that the USB transfer had drastic frequency cutoffs above 15k, the waveform appeared significantly different, and the audio quality difference was readily apparent. Supposedly a proper ATRAC component doesn't exist for the PC, so Sonicstage converts the original ATRAC to ATRAC+ 3 before converting to PCM, and this is where the quality loss comes in.I briefly scanned the threads here and couldn't find any mention of this issue or if it has been or is being addressed, or if it even can be. I'd like to see some discussion on this and if anyone else has noticed it. Edited August 21, 2007 by taper420 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raintheory Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 (edited) I'm running a frequency analysis comparison of the same SP track imported twice (once as PCM, then as Hi-SP), I'll post the results shortly. Unfortunately I no longer have a deck with digital-out, so I can't compare that. However, if what is stated is true, there should be no difference between the SP track imported as PCM vs Hi-SP/--Frequency Analysis Results:SP Imported as PCMSP Imported as Hi-SPAs we can see, there is a clear difference between the PCM upload and the Hi-SP upload. I can state based on this that in my opinion the PCM upload is not converted to Hi-SP prior to PCM.Regardless, whether anyone could hear this difference is subjective. Also I would like to see a comparison between these and optical-out as well. So if anyone has the means, please post!FYI, there is actually a setting in SonicStage that delegates whether the SP track is imported as PCM or Hi-SP... I suspect that whomever posted on Taperssection may have either not known about this setting (the default is Hi-SP), or imported the same track both ways without deleting the Hi-SP upload prior to converting to WAV, in which case SonicStage may have defaulted to the Hi-SP track and converted that one to WAV instead of the PCM upload. Edited August 18, 2007 by raintheory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky191 Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 (edited) A link to the thread on taperssection would have been sensible. I did a quick serach but I can't find anything. Theres been lots of analysis of HiMD imports to SonicStage over the years. I would be surprised is there was a problem like this. Edited August 18, 2007 by Sparky191 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taper420 Posted August 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 (edited) A link to the thread on taperssection would have been sensible. I did a quick serach but I can't find anything. Theres been lots of analysis of HiMD imports to SonicStage over the years. I would be surprised is there was a problem like this. sorry bout that... I pretty much summed up everything that was said....http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,7...html#msg1025181found through this thread:....http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,8.../topicseen.html Edited August 19, 2007 by taper420 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raintheory Posted August 19, 2007 Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 (edited) More relevant info in this post: http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showt...st&p=125678 Edited August 19, 2007 by raintheory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky191 Posted August 19, 2007 Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 I'd suspect user error. Some one with a RH1 and a deck could confirm it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avrin Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 (edited) Actual results of recording and uploading on the RH1. The track used was Paul Desmond's "Take Ten", as usual.Blue - original CDGreen - SP, transferred as WAVRed - LP2Yellow - LP4 Edited August 20, 2007 by Avrin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky191 Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 (edited) A little bit off topic could you do one for PCM, HiSP and HiLP just for devilment. Edited August 20, 2007 by Sparky191 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avrin Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 (edited) Blue - original CDGreen - PCMRed - Hi-SPYellow - Hi-LPInteresting to see that PCM is not completely equal to the original CD in the highest frequency range, and that high-frequency harmonics in Hi-SP and Hi-LP differ between channels, but not between modes. Edited August 20, 2007 by Avrin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raintheory Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Avrin, are you highlighting the entire waveform in the edit window and clicking "scan" in the frequency analysis window for each file?I only ask because I believe this gives more accurate results... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avrin Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Yes, I do it in this way. BTW, if I do not click Scan, I have a 15 kHz cutoff!Currently testing SonicStage for same bitrates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raintheory Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 ...BTW, if I do not click Scan, I have a 15 kHz cutoff!Sounds like we may have found the culprit of the 15kHz cutoff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avrin Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 (edited) SonicStage is completely different! Version 4.2 in "High" quality mode.Left:Blue - original CDRed - LP2Yellow - LP4Right:Blue - original CDRed - Hi-SPYellow - Hi-LPLooks like SonicStage Hi-SP rocks! Edited August 20, 2007 by Avrin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky191 Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 ...Looks like SonicStage Hi-SP rocks!ATRAC 292 vs ATRAC3+ 256 interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avrin Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 (edited) Blue - original CDGreen - SP recorded via optical in by a service mode hacked RH910, and uploaded by the RH1 as WAVWhy did SONY disable an obvious built-in Type-R in second generation units??? Edited August 21, 2007 by Avrin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kino170878 Posted August 23, 2007 Report Share Posted August 23, 2007 Why did SONY disable an obvious built-in Type-R in second generation units???Probably to shift everyone onto the newer codec I would imagine.If I am understanding the graphs, this means that Atrac type R remains superior in sound (albeit inferior in efficiency) to Hi-SP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky191 Posted August 23, 2007 Report Share Posted August 23, 2007 ...Atrac type R remains superior in sound (albeit inferior in efficiency) to Hi-SP?How so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kino170878 Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 How so?No software codec exists for the Type R I believe, which makes it inefficient in comparison to atrac3plus. But the sound is enough to persuade many to continue using it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunjan Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Sounds like we may have found the culprit of the 15kHz cutoff!Hi guys,I really appreciate the hard work you put into investigating this issue.Please take a look at the frequency analysis that was just posted on ts.com:http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,7...html#msg1197858OK, the curves are not drastically different, but obviously still enough for an audible difference to be heard.What do you make out of it? User error, harware/software problem or...?Thanks,Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avrin Posted August 27, 2007 Report Share Posted August 27, 2007 (edited) Very unfortunately, the graphs at the taperssection forum do not load - all I see is four red X'es at the places the graphs should be. But folowing the discussion, I should point out that, according to my graphs above, LP2 actually does have a 16 kHz cutoff when recorded by the RH1, and a 15 kHz cutoff when encoded by SonicStage. This is by design. Thus, any file recorded initially in LP2 may be deemed as MP3-sourced because of these cutoffs and encoding artifacts. Edited September 3, 2007 by Avrin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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