Some observations on Zoom H2 and Sony RH-1

[ozpeter]

Well, at last I've been able to do a bit of hands-on comparison between the Zoom H2 and the Sony RH-1 myself.

The basic conclusion (and some here will say "I told you so") is that they are very different tools best suited for different things.

In carry-around mode the RH-1 needs a mic connected to it. The quality of the end result depends on the mic, largely. You can only connect a single stereo mic direct to it. A good stereo mic tends not to be cheap. But you can choose from a range of those available. However, the usefulness of the mic input is compromised because it's unbalanced so the recorder cannot be more than about 20 feet from the mic.

The H2 in carry-around mode has two stereo mics built in, so you don't need to connect an external mic to it to get a result, and you can combine the output from the two mics while recording or later to achieve results not possible with one. The quality of the built in mics and the preamp to which they are connected is surprisingly good for the overall price. But you cannot (in effect) connect your own choice of mic to it as there is too much noise on the external mic input socket for it to be realistically usable. Why this noise affects that socket but not the built in mics (which are commendably quiet) puzzles me.

Both the H2 and the RH-1 can be used with line-level inputs eg from a mixer or mic preamp, enabling balanced mics to be used hundreds of feet from the recorder. In my initial tests similar results are obtained from the two recorders in terms of frequency response and noise levels. The H2 is perhaps over-sensitive but this should not normally be a problem if the output level from the external preamp or mixer is controllable. The H2 offers up to 24/96 which should give theoretically improved sound compared with the RH-1.

The RH-1 has a digital input but it is resampled and level controllable - it doesn't provide bit-accurate results so the usefulness of it as a "bit bucket" is perhaps slightly compromised. The H2 has no digital connections.

The RH-1 battery life is better than the H2 but the H2 uses standard AA batteries, which can be an advantage in some circumstances.

The H2 has the advantage of the SDHC storage medium for drag and drop transfers to PC, and it can have eight times the onboard storage of the RH-1, with twice the maximum file size. How its mp3 quality fares against the RH-1 Atrac I have not yet tested.

The H2 is bulkier than the RH-1 but with a stereo mic connected to the RH-1, the difference would become less significant.

In summary, the RH-1 outshines the H2 for stealth-type recording, or where you want to choose the type of mic to be used. The H2 is best if you want a one-piece recording device (consider what you'd have to take with you to replicate it with individual components). The RH-1 is perhaps more a specialist device and the H2 will have more appeal to a wider group of users. If the H2's external mic preamp had been as good as its internal mic preamp, then the RH-1 would then have only continued to appeal to users needing its compactness. The H2 is significantly cheaper than the RH-1 especially if you add the cost of a decent stereo mic to the RH-1. Or you could consider the H2 as a unique low-cost surround mic with a free recorder attached to it.

I'm glad to have both in the toolkit - they will both get regular use.

[Strungup]

My H2 is in the repair shop after just 3 weeks , Left front mic is bad , I did the firmware update , but that didnt help at all .

So When it comes back from repair , It will probably go up for sale.

[isfahani]

I am reasonably happy with the H2 as it doesn't give ANY file transfer errors like my MD does while transferring over to PC with sonic stage - rendering it virtually unusable for doing quick and easy transfers in the digital realm.

Also, I have noticed that the mp3 at 320 on the H2 sounds a little less sharp than the 256k atrac on my MZ-M10. I haven't noticed any extra noise from the external mic input, but then I haven't really used it a lot yet. Is it that bad? I am going to get an AT822 stereo mic soon, so I guess I may have to find out the hard way.

Edited October 6, 2007 by isfahani

[greenmachine]

I have noticed that the mp3 at 320 on the H2 sounds a little less sharp than the 256k atrac on my MZ-M10.

I have spectrum analyzed H2 line-in mp3 recordings at various bit rates and they all seem to be cut off at 16 kHz, even at 320 kbps. The on-board mp3 encoder does not seem to be the very best in terms of efficiency - if you can afford it (card-size wise), record in wav, upload, edit where necessary and then convert to lossy via a more efficient encoder like LAME if you need to. For rough drafts the on-board mp3 encoding should be sufficient, just don't expect it to be of the highest quality.

Other than that, owning both a NH700 and H2, I agree with ozpeter's observations. The built-in mics work surprisingly well (for the size and price), but the external inputs are suboptimal.

[Strungup]

I am reasonably happy with the H2 as it doesn't give ANY file transfer errors like my MD does while transferring over to PC with sonic stage - rendering it virtually unusable for doing quick and easy transfers in the digital realm.

Also, I have noticed that the mp3 at 320 on the H2 sounds a little less sharp than the 256k atrac on my MZ-M10. I haven't noticed any extra noise from the external mic input, but then I haven't really used it a lot yet. Is it that bad? I am going to get an AT822 stereo mic soon, so I guess I may have to find out the hard way.

The AT822 will work with your MD beautifully , The image you will get will bring an Immediate smile to your face , but be warned it will not agree with the H2

I have the AT822 , and the Sony ECM 959a , and just recently came into possesion of an ECM-MS5

These are all pro level mics , and they just dont agree with the H2 mic input , it is designed for High Impedance mics (1 Kohm or greater )

[isfahani]

/me rolls eyes... that would just figure, wouldn't it. The reason I bought the H2 is to hopefully replace my HiMD recorder if at all possible, as I am sick and tired of the various errors that have started to occur anytime I want to transfer files over using sonic stage. The last time this happened, I had 2 PCM files on the 'disc and they were both about 35mins each. #1 went just fine, but #2 got to about 66% of the way done, and then... ERROR!

Really irritating, as I have babied this MZ-M10 since the day I got it, and yes, I have re-installed SS just for the hell of it. Would those stealth microphones from sound professinals work better than the AT or are they low impedance too?

Edited October 7, 2007 by isfahani

[Nolonemo]

Guitarfx:

There are posts in the H2 thread on the O'Reilly site (link below, near the top of the thread) that indicate that the H2 limiters kick in AFTER the A/D coversion, so all they do is knock down the gain of an already-clipped signal. Since the H2 mic in sucks, and your only beef about the minidisc recorder was that it lacked a limiter, it sounds like your H2 would be going back anyway. Too bad that bad design didn't allow the H2 to reach is full potential.

http://www.oreillynet.com/digitalmedia/blo...rder_detai.html

Edited October 7, 2007 by Nolonemo

[Strungup]

Guitarfx:

There are posts in the H2 thread on the O'Reilly site (link below, near the top of the thread) that indicate that the H2 limiters kick in AFTER the A/D coversion, so all they do is knock down the gain of an already-clipped signal. Since the H2 mic in sucks, and your only beef about the minidisc recorder was that it lacked a limiter, it sounds like your H2 would be going back anyway. Too bad that bad design didn't allow the H2 to reach is full potential.

http://www.oreillynet.com/digitalmedia/blo...rder_detai.html

yeah my h2 is already in the repair shop after only 3 weeks , it really is just a toy , there are some nice things about it but they are overshadowed by other stuff , the Sony D50 coming out , has my attention , part of the review on it the guy compares the FR2le Fostex Mic pres with the Sony ,

Hereis what he said ,.............

What does the PCM-D50 have that the FR2-LE doesn't? On paper, not much. In fact, the D50 doesn't even have XLR inputs or offer phantom power for external condenser mics. But here's why I'm leaning toward picking one up in November:

It's compact, fits easily in the hand, and has excellent internal mics, making it great for grab and go recording. The FR2-LE has internal mics too, but they're the kind of mics you'd find on a third rate digital voice recorder. I think my PDA has a better mic.

When I plugged a dynamic mic into the FR2-LE I had to crank up the gain all the way to get a decent record level. When I plugged the same mic into the PCM-D50, I had to turn the record volume down to 3 or 4 to keep from clipping. This little puppy has some powerful preamps.

The PCM-D50 automatically detects when you've got an external mic plugged in and switches between the internal and external mic.

I picked up the Zoom H4 earlier this year because it offered some of the same features as the PCM-D1 at a fraction of the price. I was on a budget and it seemed like a good buy. But here's why I'm thinking about upgrading to the PCM-D50.

I haven't found a single external mic that sounds good with the H4. The preamps are way too noisy.

When using the excellent internal mics on the H4, the unit is susceptible to handling noise. I detected almost no handling noise when using the PCM-D50.

In order to save your track or create a new file on the H4, you have to stop your recording and start a new one, which causes a you to lose a few seconds of audio. The PCM-D50 lets you create new tracks on the fly.

The PCM-D50 controls are super easy to use, and you can change record levels on the fly with a simple jog dial. On the H4, you have to go through a bunch of software menus which will result in handling noise if you're using the internal mics.

The H4 has a cheap plastic feel, the PCM-D50 has a sturdy metal feel.

[isfahani]

It also looks really BIG! I hope someone else gets the idea that there may be room for something similar in size to the H2 on the market soon. Size aside, I really can't afford something like the D50, and at this point I wish that Zoom had kept all the BS (onboard tuner, metronome, etc) on the drawing board, and provided reasonable preamps for external input.

BTW, I just scored an AT822 for $125 used and I was looking around for cables to use with it, the stock ones are unfortunately not included... I came upon this little ditty, http://www.audio-discounters.com/mit-156.html do you think it's worth a try to get the impedance up to use with the H2?

Also I am still wondering if these are considered hi-impedance mics, as I am thinking about getting one of these models, but only if they're going to work with the H2... http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/...tegory/120/mics

Thanks for the input.

Edited October 8, 2007 by isfahani

[Strungup]

It also looks really BIG! I hope someone else gets the idea that there may be room for something similar in size to the H2 on the market soon. Size aside, I really can't afford something like the D50, and at this point I wish that Zoom had kept all the BS (onboard tuner, metronome, etc) on the drawing board, and provided reasonable preamps for external input.

BTW, I just scored an AT822 for $125 used and I was looking around for cables to use with it, the stock ones are unfortunately not included... I came upon this little ditty, http://www.audio-discounters.com/mit-156.html do you think it's worth a try to get the impedance up to use with the H2?

Also I am still wondering if these are considered hi-impedance mics, as I am thinking about getting one of these models, but only if they're going to work with the H2... http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/...tegory/120/mics

Thanks for the input.

No DO NOT use that plug , That plug is for a Mono Mic not a Stereo Mic .

Making the Cables for the 822 is easy , no biggie at all , If you want help with that PM me , 125 for an 822 if it is working is a great deal , The cable is realy simple . My kid could do it .

The Headphone Cable will have a Shield and a Red and White (Maybe yellow) set of wires , The shield will be Ground , to the Case and Ground pin of the XLR Plug , the Red will be Right , The white will be Left ( The 1/8 " plug is known as Tip ,Ring, Sleeve or a TRS plug ) so Tip will be right , Ring will be left

A very nice Headphone Extension Cable and a Neutrik XLR male from Guitar Center , and you will have a custom length Primo cable for the 822 at about 10 bucks

Edited October 8, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[isfahani]

Thanks, I may do that. I'll warn you, I don't own a soldering iron... But I am still wondering about the impedance transformer, if the mic won't work with the H2 even if I am using a transformer then I am going to have to think about what kind of cables I need instead, cause I won't be using it with the H2... and I am starting to hope that my MD recorder isn't as bad off as I think.

And that begs the question, if the AT822 doesn't work well with the H2 input structure, how could it with my MZ-M10?

Edited October 8, 2007 by isfahani

[Strungup]

Thanks, I may do that. I'll warn you, I don't own a soldering iron... But I am still wondering about the impedance transformer, if the mic won't work with the H2 even if I am using a transformer then I am going to have to think about what kind of cables I need instead, cause I won't be using it with the H2... and I am starting to hope that my MD recorder isn't as bad off as I think.

And that begs the question, if the AT822 doesn't work well with the H2 input structure, how could it with my MZ-M10?

The Mic preamp in the MZ10 is designed for that type of mic , The design of a Preamp , has to be made with a specific purpose in mind , The Inputs on the Zoom , and the Fostex were designed for a purpose ,...... Just to have an Input .

The preamp on the MD's are designed for recording .

Lets go back to the R50 , I have done tests with my 822 and the RH1 , and the R50 .

The R50 was made for recording and on a Semipro level , The Point being made is ... it was designed way Before USB interfacing was an issue , it was simply Made for Capturing Good quality sound . And that has not changed , only that USB has been added , and associated problems along with it , but the Mic input hasnt changed , and that is to Sony's credit.

Whereas the Zoom was designed to interface with your computer , specifically that , and the Sonic quality is an afterthought , not the main purpose.

My 822 has NEVER dissappointed me , but I know what to expect from it , and how to get it to do what it is capable of , The Zoom Preamp as well as MOST digital recorders (speaking of the Multitrack recorders ) have horrible preamps , you absolutely have to use an external pre to get a good sound ,

With the exeption of the MD ........... or Dat , and they have ................. yep the Same Preamps .

Go to "The internet Archive " and browse the concerts that are on file ( You can download a LOT of Greatful dead there and other stuff free. But as you listen ,.. read what equipment was used to record what piece , they will be listed , that is a Great learning tool .

It will be mostly DAT , or Sony Pro Cassette decks , or Dat to Nakamichi CR7a transfers

The sound quality will vary by Mic and placement in the Audience , but read and listen and you will get a feel for what each piece was capable of , And you will be completely surprised at what a Cassette deck was capable of .

The TC-D5m has always been one of my wants but I could ever find a used one , there is a good reason for that , noone will give that up , the same with the 822 , once you learn what it works with , you wont give it up .

I could make you a cable if you would send me something from the US . ( even make a spare )

[isfahani]

lol... thanks, but I am well past listening to Dead boots, although I know what you are referring to. My first gig as a kit drummer was in a GD cover band, and I have heard the boots, man, ad infintium! I am 39 years old, so I am very familiar with most pre-digital era recording equipment, since I started recording in the early 80's. However, I never much cared for the sound of DAT at all, especially what it did to things like my cymbals.

I have a Korg d1600 mkII now that I really like for portability but the first thing I went out and bought after that was a Bellari RP220 Tube preamp, and then a Presonus Blue Tube - The Korg has OK pre's if you're plugging in a POD or a synth

So what is it you need from over here anyways? Besides the cords, there's a few things I could use from Japan, most of them I found out about recently on the New Dotch Cooking Show.

[Strungup]

lol... thanks, but I am well past listening to Dead boots, although I know what you are referring to. My first gig as a kit drummer was in a GD cover band, and I have heard the boots, man, ad infintium! I am 39 years old, so I am very familiar with most pre-digital era recording equipment, since I started recording in the early 80's. However, I never much cared for the sound of DAT at all, especially what it did to things like my cymbals.

I have a Korg d1600 mkII now that I really like for portability but the first thing I went out and bought after that was a Bellari RP220 Tube preamp, and then a Presonus Blue Tube - The Korg has OK pre's if you're plugging in a POD or a synth

So what is it you need from over here anyways? Besides the cords, there's a few things I could use from Japan, most of them I found out about recently on the New Dotch Cooking Show.

I will get started on the cables and test them to make sure they work ( I need to make a couple for myself anyway ) I will post some pics for you when they are done , and contemplate the needs ( they will be cheap I assure you )

[isfahani]

You know, I don't mind helping you out, but it's not the actual cost of what you might want that worries me, it's the shipping to Japan added into it. So, if this can be an equitable exchange, sure NP. If it's gonna run me $30-40 for a couple of cables I could make or pick up here in the states for half of that, well...

[Strungup]

You know, I don't mind helping you out, but it's not the actual cost of what you might want that worries me, it's the shipping to Japan added into it. So, if this can be an equitable exchange, sure NP. If it's gonna run me $30-40 for a couple of cables I could make or pick up here in the states for half of that, well...

We cam make some equitable compensation , where each is happy , Right now though my wife isnt gonna let me do anything , just found out we only have 90 bucks in the bank , YIKES , in Japan ....That is a BAAADDDDD thing .

[bobt]

We cam make some equitable compensation , where each is happy , Right now though my wife isnt gonna let me do anything , just found out we only have 90 bucks in the bank , YIKES , in Japan ....That is a BAAADDDDD thing .

Ouch, sounds like here, lucky I can go fishing if I get hungry, hope things look up for you

Bob

[isfahani]

Hmnn 90 bucks in the bank in Japan = two coffees, two donuts, it's gone!

OK, well, as I need these cables to test out the mic when I get it I'll just have to hook up with them here. However I am not adverse to helping you out with your needs as there are a few other things from over there that I might just want - like if you could find me a Tora-San t shirt (Black T, westerners' sized xxl) that's cool... or old film posters - Fukusaku's Yakuza stuff, or films with Yakushimaru Hiroko (80's) or Misora Hibari (60's Jidai Geki are my favorites) the latter two being a preference.

I guess for the moment the only way I am going to try to feed an external mic setup into the H2 is by running them into my Bellari RP220 and then into the line inputs... I can see this H2 going up for sale by December, really, if I think about it a little bit.

Edited October 12, 2007 by isfahani

[Strungup]

Hmnn 90 bucks in the bank in Japan = two coffees, two donuts, it's gone!

OK, well, as I need these cables to test out the mic when I get it I'll just have to hook up with them here. However I am not adverse to helping you out with your needs as there are a few other things from over there that I might just want - like if you could find me a Tora-San t shirt (Black T, westerners' sized xxl) that's cool... or old film posters - Fukusaku's Yakuza stuff, or films with Yakushimaru Hiroko (80's) or Misora Hibari (60's Jidai Geki are my favorites) the latter two being a preference.

I guess for the moment the only way I am going to try to feed an external mic setup into the H2 is by running them into my Bellari RP220 and then into the line inputs... I can see this H2 going up for sale by December, really, if I think about it a little bit.

Sounds like youve been here before , Train fare to Yokohama 190, two coffees (@ 360 a pop ) 720 , two Gourmet Cinammin Rolls from Starbucks 1200 yen

Bowl of Ramen before I go home 750 , train fare home 190 , Two 100 yen cups of Sake to make the wife happy .

9,000 yen - 190+190+750+200+1200 = goes fast

Yep we 're broke

VHS or DVD ???

Edited October 12, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[isfahani]

Nope, not yet, but I have managed to keep up on JP culture somewhat in the past 25 years, most recently being my huge asian film addiction. VHS or DVD what?

[Strungup]

Nope, not yet, but I have managed to keep up on JP culture somewhat in the past 25 years, most recently being my huge asian film addiction. VHS or DVD what?

You said Films , so what format do you want them ?????? DVD will be region 2 most likely so you would need an All region DVD player , VHS will be NTSC

[isfahani]

I've got like 3 all region DVD players that handle PAL or NTSC quite easily. I don't do VHS anymore.. lol

Actually, I said film posters, which are a little harder to come by for me here. DVD's I can get (oftentimes custom english subbed) no problem.