Batterybox questions

[bobbyo]

Hello again,

I've just upgraded my recording gear and was optimistic about the results I would get... but after hearing another taper's recording of the same show I'm a little disappointed... so I'm looking to buy a battery box and had a few questions (I'm using the MZ-RH1 and mainly record live music):

1.) 9v vs. 12v: I'm assuming 12v is optimal but will it really make a difference?

2.) Bass roll-off: Do I really need it?

3.) Anything else I should note when making the purchase?

Right now the winner seems to be this guy here,but I'd appreciate any help/recommendations.

[62v8]

Hello again,

1.) 9v vs. 12v: I'm assuming 12v is optimal but will it really make a difference?

2.) Bass roll-off: Do I really need it?

3.) Anything else I should note when making the purchase?

Right now the winner seems to be this guy here,but I'd appreciate any help/recommendations.

Having recorded over 100 shows in a multitude of variations ... I guess I can answer with confidence

1) 9v v 12V - in all probability no difference

2) Bass Roll Off - correct application depends on the music source, mic & room - basically it is not necessary

3) Not really

Keep in mind the main reason for buying a battery box in the first place should be

a) To get the mic operating at a more optimal point in leiu of plug in power. The improvement aspect in the SPL handling and distortion.

Enables you to run line in on your recorder ilo mic (which has always been my preference)

Try this as an alternative ... http://www.microphonemadness.com/products/mmcbmminminc.htm

Lastly, don't forget that even very ordinary sounding raw masters can sparkle with wise application of equalisation in post.

Cheers

[A440]

I like the Mic Madness module in that link too.

I don't see the point of bass rolloff unless you have a very good idea that it's going to be a massive subwoofer type show: reggae, hip-hop, death metal. Those are the only kinds of shows that have overloaded my mics (Sound Pro BMC-2) when using the Mic Madness module. If you go regularly to those kinds of shows, then sure, get bass rolloff. But use it sparingly or....you'll roll off all the bass.

What kind of mics are you using? And are you using Manual Volume? Those are more crucial to what you're recording than the battery module. Also, are the mics near your ears or above--not on the floor, waist level, etc.? Placement makes a huge difference.

What gear was the other taper using--not just recorder, but mics? Battery module?

Edited November 14, 2007 by A440

[greenmachine]

Mic overload can't be reduced by using a bass roll-off, you would need more capable mics. You would just get a distorted signal with less bass since the filter is behind the mics. The bass roll-off is a simple 1st order filter and meant for correcting the balance of boomy mixes and/or rooms. You usually can do that with much greater control in post processing.

[bobbyo]

Thanks for your responses everyone.

The price on the box from microphone madness certainly is more welcoming, not to mention the fact that shipping is half that of soundprofessionals (to Europe, which will in turn save on customs charges if they decide to levy them).

To answer your questions, I'm currently using these with standard sensitivity, so obviously I'm making binaural recordings at ear level. The other taper was using WM-61As (http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/pdf/em06_wm61_a_b_dne.pdf) and some battery box (I don't know which one). I have no idea where he was standing or where his mics were placed, but in his recording the vocals are much more pronounced/clear than in mine (though there seems to be more reverb in his). While this is likely a matter of positioning in the venue, upon more careful listening I've noticed a few moments in my recording where it seems to distort, although the sound was not all-too loud (I was using an attenuator). I have not yet done any editing to the audio, so maybe something could be saved by doing that.

Edited November 14, 2007 by bobbyo

[A440]

greenmachine, that makes sense. The bass roll-off is in the chain after the mics, so if they overload, it's already too late. Good point.

Bobbyo

Using the attenuator actually limits the dynamic range--because while reducing the signal to prevent distortion, it also reduces the plug-in power going to the mics. So a battery box would give you some improvement. Get one, it's worth it.

I think the TFB-2's use the same WM-61A capsules--compare the specs. I have always wondered about putting the mics actually in the ear, because the outer ear acts like a funnel for sound. So you're getting the sound pre-funneled as your own ears do--instead of open-air sound waiting to be funneled by your ears. Sound Pro says it's more realistic--but is it? Wouldn't it depend on whether you were using earbuds, within your outer ear, or over-the-ear headphones? It might be a mostly philosophical question. You could try recording your home stereo with them outside your ears--a little awkward, but you could do it--and inside your ears and see what you like better.

[bobbyo]

Sound Pro says it's more realistic--but is it? Wouldn't it depend on whether you were using earbuds, within your outer ear, or over-the-ear headphones? It might be a mostly philosophical question. You could try recording your home stereo with them outside your ears--a little awkward, but you could do it--and inside your ears and see what you like better.

I've only recorded two shows with them so far, but they seem (at least in my opinion) to sound much better through earbuds than through larger, over-the-ear headphones. They also sound alright through normal speakers, but I guess that's not so much the point of binaural recordings. I haven't tried a comparative test but I'll do so when I get a chance. Compared to the mics I used before they seem to sound a bit more realistic, but I'm also using entirely different equipment now.

Another question:

If I'm recording a source that isn't particularly of high SPL, should I even bother bringing the battery box along? Will it also improve such recordings?

Edited November 14, 2007 by bobbyo

[A440]

I use the battery box for everything musical. Without it you need to go through mic-in, and mic-in is way too sensitive to bass.

Lately I thought I would just go mic-in for an unamplified church choir and organ (with BMC-2 mics, same specs as the TFB-2) and it was a disaster when the organ pedals came in or the choir hit some high notes, despite not peaking the level. (I was in a place incredibly close to the choir....would have been a good recording through line-in...sigh...) The only time I skip the battery box is for speech.

For anything with low notes and anything even slightly amplified, the battery box is a must. And I'd use it for an acoustic-guitar folkie type too. I was just at a superloud show last night and the Manual Volume level was 13/30. If I crank it up to the mid-20s, I can get good volume on lower-SPL events. I don't think I've ever had to go above 25.

(Conversation close to the microphone--plain old speech--is also picked up fine through the battery box when I've accidentally left it recording at the end of a set.)

Other people may have different results. People complain about low volume through batterybox/line in. But I simply haven't had that problem with levels set correctly.

Edited November 14, 2007 by A440

[bobbyo]

Thank you for all the great tips. Box from MM should be on its way shortly.

[bobbyo]

Sorry, another question. If you're setting the levels manually, is there any need at all for an attenuator? It's purpose is to lessen a signal that's too strong before it hits the preamp, but isn't that also done via manual levels?

[greenmachine]

The manual levels work down to a certain setting - in my tests 10/30 (nh700 mic-in low sens) - below that you will just lower the already clipped signal - which is useless. A combination of line-in recording up to level 30 for loud sounds and the mic-in at low sensitivity, from 10-30 for anything less loud will give you a total control for any signal from very low to very high, no attenuator needed. Other types of recorders may not have such a fine control over the input signal and may need external leveling.

Edited November 15, 2007 by greenmachine

[A440]

GM is right as usual. You never need both attenuator and battery box.

The attenuator into Mic-in is just a cheap-and-dirty substitute for a battery box into Line-in. I was using it when battery boxes were much bulkier than the little modules now, and I still keep one in case the harder-to-find batteries in the battery box die--though they do last a long, long time--but the attenuator does degrade the mic signal, while the battery box enhances it.

The problem with going direct into mic-in is that even with levels that look like they're OK--nowhere near peaking--moderate bass will overload the mic preamp and you'll get distortion. The attenuator helps prevent that, but for the best mic-in recordings you need a source like voice that doesn't have a lot of bass.

Incidentally, the battery box is on whenever the mic is plugged in. The batteries last hundreds of hours, but do make sure you're unplugged from it when you're not recording.

[bobbyo]

Thanks again, both of you.

You raise an important issue that I was still curious about. When the batteries are getting ready to die, how will I know it (so I can prevent that from happening in the middle of an important recording)?

Edited November 16, 2007 by bobbyo

[greenmachine]

The power consumption is very low with this types of microphones (about 0.5 to 1 mA). The battery will die very slowly, most likely not suddenly in the middle of a show, but rather the signal will be a tiny bit lower and more distorted each show. Owning a multimeter is never a bad idea. For the sole purpose of testing the voltage, an inexpensive model will do. If the total voltage is significantly below 9V with the microphones connected (about 7 or 8 should be the limit), replace the batteries.

[bobbyo]

Well I tried ordering the box from microphone madness, but it took them ca. two weeks to realise they had not posted my parcel, then another week to get around to refunding my money. I'm a little disappointed.

Edited November 30, 2007 by bobbyo

[greenmachine]

I can make you one like the one in the stickied DIY guide in the live recording subforum. Takes a E-block type 9V battery. Shipping would be from germany, so pretty fast. PM for details if interested.

[nathantw666]

Well I tried ordering the box from microphone madness, but it took them ca. two weeks to realise they had not posted my parcel, then another week to get around to refunding my money. I'm a little disappointed.

I ordered the same thing from Microphone Madness because of what I read in this thread and I too have not seen anything from them. I tried calling and got an answering machine. I'm goin gto ask for a refund also. I'll just pay more and get it from Soundprofessionals.com. I'd make it myself but finding an electronics store nowadays is pretty hard. Radio Shack isn't as good for electronic parts as they used to be. I don't want to mail order since that takes time and then the time it takes to make the unit. Oh well.

[A440]

Sorry to hear that Mic Madness is getting flaky. I have two of those little battery boxes and both came quickly, but it was a while ago.

Please post about what their response is. I'll stop recommending them if they've grown unreliable.

[newbie20072007]

1.) 9v vs. 12v: I'm assuming 12v is optimal but will it really make a difference?.

Has anyone else experienced this problem?

I used a battery box whhich came with a 12v battery on my WM61A mics which then recorded high levels of distortion, after looking at the specs of the WM61A I realised they state 10v max http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/compon...m61_a_b_dne.pdf

After changing the battery to a 9v things became a lot better !!

Edited December 6, 2007 by newbie20072007

[nathantw666]

Sorry to hear that Mic Madness is getting flaky. I have two of those little battery boxes and both came quickly, but it was a while ago.

Please post about what their response is. I'll stop recommending them if they've grown unreliable.

I just got a call from one of their reps. He sounded nice enough. They were going to ship the unit on Saturday, but I had already canceled the order. He stated that there was a shortage of parts which caused the delay. I don't know if you should stop recommending them, but their response time is definitely a little slow if you have questions.

I ended up getting a unit like the one in the "build a battery box yourself" thread from Soundprofessionals.com. I paid through the nose, but it was still cheaper than the one I ordered at MicMadness and faster than if I had built it myself.

[nathantw666]

Just finished "taping" the concert. It came out the same way I heard it, though some heavy duty equalizing is in order. The battery box was definitely helpful.

Thanks to all of you for your help.