Greetings and Questions

[t4tomuk]

Hi guys, new here. I just stumbled across the site and its good to see there's an online community for minidisc! I've been looking at various sources and trying to figure out what's what and what md player/recorder best fits what I want but I think it's time I asked some people with experience of them

I kinda grew up with tapes and then CD's and I never had a MD player (mainly due to them being expensive at first) but after having a portable CD player and an original mini iPod (I know I know, it's the only ipod I've liked because it's ergonomically almost excellent) as I grew up, I find myself returning to the portable cd player and it struck me that I should check out md players (and yes I was surprised to find out that there is now Hi-Md!). I've recently been getting along with Vinyl (too young for the whole Vinyl era) and I really like the more personal feeling of putting on a vinyl, grabbing a cd and I think I'll like md players for that same reason. Mp3 players just seem rather, cold in comparison.

Basically, I just want a basic md player/recorder (not hi-md). I'd like to have one with two headphone sockets (like the old walkmans) but I don't know if any models have them, certainly seems new ones don't. I don't mind about software compatibility as I'll just be real time recording. Also something that can be picked up fairly cheapish, just nothing really expensive like some of the hi-md players I've seen. Also, I find any proprietary battery type things to be annoying, as they always end up going duff and then you need to find another, so anything that just uses AA (AAA?) batteries would also be good (Unless the rechargeable type batteries are quite widely and commonly found then I don't mind).

As you can tell, I really don't know much about md players, and I'm not sure what features to look out for/which are quite necessary. Hopefully you can enlighten me a bit

(I hope this was the right place to post)

Edited June 29, 2009 by t4tom

[bobt]

The MZ-R70 has dual headphone sockets, as well, you can get a Y adapter, any reason you don't want Hi-MD, the NH 700 or 800 are incredible entry level machines,

Have fun

Bob

[A440]

Just about every minidisc gadget ever made is here:

http://www.minidisc.org/equipment_browser.html

The unit to look for that meets most your requirements is the MZ-N707. The red and black one may be the coolest minidisc design ever. It takes one AA battery and records in SP (good fidelity, although compressed), LP2 (passable fidelity) and LP4 (speech only). SP will record for the designated length of the minidisc--74 or 80 minutes--while LP2 will record twice as long and LP4...you can figure that out. Sorry, just one headphone socket.

Note that even if you're willing to listen in LP2 quality, that's just 160 minutes per disc--2 or 3 albums.

Also, you cannot upload the recordings from the MZ-N707. Yes, it has a serial connection, but that is a one-way connection from PC to MD, and not the other way around.

Most MD units do not have built-in microphones, and no Hi-MD units do.

The beauty of Hi-MD is that you can upload recordings to your computer. It has to be done through merely adequate Sony software (SonicStage 4.2), and most units are only compatible with Windows. But if it's not Hi-MD, you have a glorified cassette recorder--if you want to copy your recordings, you have to do them in realtime out of the headphone jack (or get the most expensive Hi-MD, the MZ-RH1, to upload them, which would make getting the other MD pointless).

And I don't want to be too discouraging but....all minidisc units, particularly from the era before Hi-MD, are getting old. Very old. You have to find them used (eBay, probably). You have to hope they were not misused, and you're not going to be able to get them repaired.

Me, I use my Hi-MD constantly. (MZ-NH700--bobt is right.) It's a nifty little concert bootlegging machine and conversation recorder, and (with a good remote) it's still better made for that purpose than many newer digital recorders.

Yet honestly, I don't think this is the time to get started with minidisc, even if you love old technology. You really need to think about what you're going to use it for.

For music players, there are smaller units that give you better fidelity. For recorders, there are units that have equal or better fidelity and upload through a simple USB connection or SD card reader. Minidisc was fun while it was the only game in town, but it's obsolete.

Edited June 30, 2009 by A440

[kino170878]

Yet honestly, I don't think this is the time to get started with minidisc, even if you love old technology. You really need to think about what you're going to use it for.

For music players, there are smaller units that give you better fidelity. For recorders, there are units that have equal or better fidelity and upload through a simple USB connection or SD card reader. Minidisc was fun while it was the only game in town, but it's obsolete.

There is one area where Minidisc is still king - editing. Is there any other format which can insert new track marks, delete and rearrange the order of tracks all on the unit? MD is perfect for that and one of the reasons why it's still being used by studio professionals and DJ's. For everything else your post is spot on - no one really needs to concern themselves with Minidisc anymore and there are other easier alternatives out there.

I can also understand the thread starter's preference for having two audio outs on the portable. None of the newer MD units have this feature it seems. My old MZ-R37 has a dedicated line out in addition to a headphone out, essential for those who need it.

Edited July 1, 2009 by kino170878

[Abby Normal]

I don't think we should be discouraging anybody, even if it means we're adding one more person to the competition for dwindling stock. You never know--the next person who gets into MiniDisc today might be inspired to create the next great idea we'll be clamoring for tomorrow. I really do think of it as a possible muse for some latent genius of an idea that is just waiting to be born.

There are plenty of units that are in barely used or new or refurbished condition out there. One advantage that MD machines have over older tape units is they don't have to worry about rubber deteriorating. With a tape unit, even if it's "NOS" (new old stock), you'll have to replace the belts either immediately or in short order. With MD, it's all gears. If it was a decent unit to begin with and you find one in great condition, it should still have a lot of fun left in it.

MD does have built-in editing, but I would hardly call that a super great advantage. As it is with film vs. digital cameras, composition was an art-form with film. Now with the high capacity you get you can take hundreds of pictures and sort it out later and not worry about film or chemical developing costs, etc. Likewise with digital recording. Those ZOOM H2 and H4 series PCM recorders are really a great value for those who need high quality field recording--and you can plug in enormous capacities with a card. I still think with the modern digital cameras and field recorders it's still helpful to keep a notebook so you know what you're looking at when you're sorting it out later. You can do this with MiniDisc too, but at a slightly higher cost. Media is still available and I think is still fairly reasonable (except when you compare it to modern media, of course).

I was going to put something in here about recommendations, but I haven't prepared that yet. My bare minimum for a secondary or tertiary unit that I'll actually use is to be able to get data on and off with USB. This seems the easiest way to keep the bridge open with new media.

...snip...

And I don't want to be too discouraging but....all minidisc units, particularly from the era before Hi-MD, are getting old. Very old. You have to find them used (eBay, probably). You have to hope they were not misused, and you're not going to be able to get them repaired.

...snip...

Yet honestly, I don't think this is the time to get started with minidisc, even if you love old technology. You really need to think about what you're going to use it for.

For music players, there are smaller units that give you better fidelity. For recorders, there are units that have equal or better fidelity and upload through a simple USB connection or SD card reader. Minidisc was fun while it was the only game in town, but it's obsolete.

There is one area where Minidisc is still king - editing. Is there any other format which can insert new track marks, delete and rearrange the order of tracks all on the unit? MD is perfect for that and one of the reasons why it's still being used by studio professionals and DJ's. For everything else your post is spot on - no one really needs to concern themselves with Minidisc anymore and there are other easier alternatives out there.

I can also understand the thread starter's preference for having two audio outs on the portable. None of the newer MD units have this feature it seems. My old MZ-R37 has a dedicated line out in addition to a headphone out, essential for those who need it.

[A440]

Track marking is, indeed, the feature that keeps me using (Hi-)MD. That and the stealth aspects.

But the $300 Yamaha Pocketrak CX has a function called "file edit-divide"--I don't know if that can be activated while recording.

People who are new to MD, who haven't been through its evolution like many of us here, are likely to make a lot of assumptions about digital recorders. For instance:

(1) You can upload the recording off the disc--only true for Hi-MD, and still a ridiculously involved process.

(2) The recordings are CD-quality. Only with Hi-MD.

(3) The recordings are .mp3 or .wav. Nope. They are weird proprietary Sony ATRAC formats that need to be converted for anyone else to use them.

(4) The unit has a built-in mic. Nope.

(5) If you just plug in a mic, you can record anything, like loud music. Nope. You need additional gizmos and there's a learning curve.

Face it--Sony's engineers were hardware wizards and absolute software buffoons, making what should have been a simple, intuitive recorder a quirky and complicated device. We're used to it and we're fond of it. But you don't need SP or Hi-SP compression on a 1GB (or 80-minute) disc when you can record .wav (or even 320 kbps mp3) onto a microSD card. You don't even need to ever know what ATRAC was. Minidisc was an interim device--a little, affordable digital recorder in the days before SD and microSD.

I would love to have a flash recorder (microSD or SD card) with minidisc's surprisingly good mic preamps, minidisc's track marking and on-unit editing, minidisc's remote control and no built-in mics--recording, of course, in .wav and .mp3 and other standard formats with a simple USB upload. That would be the best of both worlds, and now it could be even smaller than MD units. I haven't seen it yet, but by 2020 when my three remaining Hi-MD units have bit the dust, I assume there will be one.

[Abby Normal]

People who are new to MD, who haven't been through its evolution like many of us here, are likely to make a lot of assumptions about digital recorders. For instance:

(1) You can upload the recording off the disc--only true for Hi-MD, and still a ridiculously involved process.

I realize you aren't singling me out specifically, but I can tell you that I do not make this assumption. That is why I have been focusing on HiMD units.

(3) The recordings are .mp3 or .wav. Nope. They are weird proprietary Sony ATRAC formats that need to be converted for anyone else to use them.

(4) The unit has a built-in mic. Nope.

(5) If you just plug in a mic, you can record anything, like loud music. Nope. You need additional gizmos and there's a learning curve.

Not everyone is interested in this for the recording capabilities, although that's certainly no small aspect for me. I never assume anything is plug-and-play, but occasionally something works far more smoothly than I expect and I'm pleasantly surprised.

Face it--Sony's engineers were hardware wizards and absolute software buffoons, making what should have been a simple, intuitive recorder a quirky and complicated device.

I am in total agreement with you there. My recent (first) experience with SonicStage left me flustered and angry. I'm not suggesting that this is necessarily the solution, but I am looking forward to trying out the HiMD transfer software for linux that is in current development.

You don't even need to ever know what ATRAC was. Minidisc was an interim device--a little, affordable digital recorder in the days before SD and microSD. I would love to have a flash recorder (microSD or SD card) with minidisc's surprisingly good mic preamps, minidisc's track marking and on-unit editing, minidisc's remote control and no built-in mics--recording, of course, in .wav and .mp3 and other standard formats with a simple USB upload. That would be the best of both worlds, and now it could be even smaller than MD units. I haven't seen it yet, but by 2020 when my three remaining Hi-MD units have bit the dust, I assume there will be one.

I'm certainly not evangelizing MD as a recording format that can compete with today's alternatives. I am saying it still has an appeal that transcends its technical shortcomings. It's similar to what I hear from detractors of ebook-readers. They want to hold a book. I want to hold a disc. Minidisc is superior to CDs because their cartridge form offers them some protection from the environment. Minidiscs' size and capacity are just the right combination to act as a physical, tactile filing system for audio content. The physical/tactile part of this is a very important part of this equation for me. You should have the picture now that SD/MicroSD don't have these characteristics in my opinion.

I would love to have a flash recorder (microSD or SD card) with minidisc's surprisingly good mic preamps, minidisc's track marking and on-unit editing, minidisc's remote control and no built-in mics--recording, of course, in .wav and .mp3 and other standard formats with a simple USB upload. That would be the best of both worlds, and now it could be even smaller than MD units. I haven't seen it yet, but by 2020 when my three remaining Hi-MD units have bit the dust, I assume there will be one.

Just to be clear--flash is not an archival medium. SD/MicroSD is also far too wonky (perhaps I need to buy more expensive cards) for my tastes. Currently SSD offers the best promise of being something I feel I can depend on out in the field. For archiving, I'd like to see them put the next generation of Blu-Ray into a cartridge--maybe even bring the form factor down to MiniDisc proportions. Wouldn't that make a nice ending?

[Edit: the BluRay Association claims they've advanced coating techniques that make cartridges unnecessary. Be that as it may, I would still wager there are archivists would would prefer additional assurance.]

In conclusion, I'd like to say that my intent here wasn't to challenge, but to bring a new perspective that I hope will put a dent in the cynicism I detect. I promise you, you are safe. I have no starry-eyed naive delusions regarding how MiniDisc is on the verge of making a comeback. I would, however, like to be that person that someone comes to in 20 years with a MiniDisc that they've had zero hope of retrieving the content from before they came to me.

Edited July 2, 2009 by narp

[bluecrab]

People who are new to MD, who haven't been through its evolution like many of us here, are likely to make a lot of assumptions about digital recorders. For instance:

(1) You can upload the recording off the disc--only true for Hi-MD, and still a ridiculously involved process.

(2) The recordings are CD-quality. Only with Hi-MD.

(3) The recordings are .mp3 or .wav. Nope. They are weird proprietary Sony ATRAC formats that need to be converted for anyone else to use them.

(4) The unit has a built-in mic. Nope.

(5) If you just plug in a mic, you can record anything, like loud music. Nope. You need additional gizmos and there's a learning curve.

Face it--Sony's engineers were hardware wizards and absolute software buffoons, making what should have been a simple, intuitive recorder a quirky and complicated device. We're used to it and we're fond of it. But you don't need SP or Hi-SP compression on a 1GB (or 80-minute) disc when you can record .wav (or even 320 kbps mp3) onto a microSD card. You don't even need to ever know what ATRAC was. Minidisc was an interim device--a little, affordable digital recorder in the days before SD and microSD.

I am completely unconcerned with live recording. The near-CD quality of SP and LP2 (so it sounds to me) work fine for me. I like, and have always liked, playing around with physical media. I really like making my own mixes and have the result of that be a minidisc, no matter if I keep it for a day, a year, or permanently. And I like having all this separate - pretty much so - from any computer I use or own. It helps to have a couple of decks that record CD>MD @ 4x. Maybe I will outlive them, maybe they will outlive me.

A friend, one who heavily dissed MD as a lossy format, is now enamored of the iPod and he seems to think I should join those ranks. But as you say, I'm used to [MD] and fond of it. I managed to convince my brother and a friend to at least include MD as part of their electronic repertoire, too. The friend still doesn't understand why something so cool never caught on!

MD is a way excellent medium for me to put recordings of books on. I listen to them while I drive, it's just great. I even found a musical use for LP4 - squeeze in an extra track or two on a comp, at the end, when space is running out. Oh well, we all know all this stuff, I just wanted to mention how happy I am with MD!

[A440]

@narp

It sounds like you know what you're getting into, so more power to you, and welcome to our small but stubborn club.

If you riffle through this forum you'll see a lot of WTF posts from people who haven't researched MD the way you have, so I like to warn folks what they're getting into.

I don't know which SonicStage you tried, but any SonicStage before 4.2 is kludgy. 4.2 isn't perfect by a long shot, but it's the best there is. As long as you have access to a Windows machine, get that version. (Only 4.3 works on Vista, but 4.2 works better on XP.)

Search this forum for a full 4.2 installer.

Edited July 2, 2009 by A440

[Abby Normal]

I started with official 4.3 installer and it worked exactly once, then it started crashing every time I tried to start it. (Vista) Then I uninstalled and installed the 4.3 "ultimate" installer found on here. That, too, refused to start without crashing. Eventually I got it working, but only after I gave in and purged all related registry entries, profile data, and I let it install to C:. I was trying to make it work on an alternate drive. This last step seemed essential, apparently. How stupid.

I'm still very interested in seeing where the Linux project takes us. I haven't been following it closely, but I wonder if it will bring downloads/transfers/conversions not previously possible (and to other HiMD units besides RH1).

Edited July 2, 2009 by narp

[sfbp]

I've always installed sonicstage to d or e.

The "common files" (OpenMG) need to go on C but that was never a choice.

Something else restrictive about your system maybe?

[Abby Normal]

No. I put the blame squarely on Sony components. I remember Googling the error (but I can't remember the exact error at the moment) and other people were getting it trying to run some Sony Entertainment game under Vista. Anyway, it's done. My laptop is XP and if I install it (4.2) there I should have fewer issues. Further, I may start experimenting with the linux project soon.

Incidentally, you can probably install (i.e. move manually) the Common Files anywhere so long as its in the path and/or registered. Also, it is very likely you can move the ProgramData off of C since there are easily identifiable points to change where SonicStage points to those in the registry.

Edited July 2, 2009 by narp

[sfbp]

There may be clues that during installation Sony "locks" some of the software to your machine or even to where it was installed.

Ohhhhhh.... I thought you said it 'twas XP. Vista installs can fail because of UAC. Generally fixing to run as administrator will make these go away.

I would be very careful if you have lots of music in your library. Otherwise, should be no problems. I have installed 4.3 over top of 4.3 too.

[Abby Normal]

Trust me, I took every UAC related failure into account. As I said, it DID work the first time I ran it. I do keep UAC on, but if I have an application with known UAC incompatibility, I go into properties of ALL the executables and change them so they always run as administrator.

There may be clues that during installation Sony "locks" some of the software to your machine or even to where it was installed.

Ohhhhhh.... I thought you said it 'twas XP. Vista installs can fail because of UAC. Generally fixing to run as administrator will make these go away.

I would be very careful if you have lots of music in your library. Otherwise, should be no problems. I have installed 4.3 over top of 4.3 too.

[sfbp]

It is possible that there is a C-related problem. However I installed SonicStage on h:, and installed Ultimate from Avrin over top of it. I must admit, I did NOT do an install from scratch of Ultimate on h:

And for the record, I never had a problem with 4.3 even the official one, relative to 4.2, on XP. The only thing that Ultimate fixed, AFAIK was the slow upload on RH1 problem, which I had been fixing by hand according to the posted explanation. Even now, that seems flaky, and I end up deleting those devices occasionally.