dispher Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 hello everyone...i posted this a while back @ minidisc.org (the one & only place for all things MD) as this problem isn’t really MD related, i decided to post it here (the definite ATRAC website) i have some kinda "issue" really annoying in *ALL* versions of SonicStage that i used starting from the version bundled with the MZ-NH1 ... (i think it's 2.1) up until 4.0. it is the way the encoder in SonicStage uses the ATRAC3plus CODEC ... Not ATRAC3 (to some extent) or WMA or MP3...just the ATRAC3plus CODEC.When you rip a CD or convert files it seems like the program has a way of achieving "gapless" rips or converts by streaming the audio signal as one long stream & cutting it where one track ends & the other begins (simulated trackmarks) but due to an error in the way the program uses the ATRAC3plus CODEC it doesn't split the tracks in the original point in the stream! it offsets them by about 300 to 400 milliseconds (less than half a sec) before the end of the first track & the remaining part of the first track goes to the second track. i checked this using my ears & sound forge to examine the output.what does this mean??? you will always have to hear the last milliseconds of the track that was playing before the track you will listen to next ... on some CDs this will have no effect (since there is a bit of silence that omits this error) but on gapless CDs it will be EXTREAMLY ANOYING there are no solutions for this that i know of...except for 1. ripping the CD2. combine all the tracks using the combine function3. split them using the divide function (not 100% accurate)4. re-name & re-tag everything (everything was tagged & named perfectly using gracenote in the first place)i have tried deferent PCs & deferent windows versions (freshly installed) heck, i even tried virtual PCs & i still get the same result!i have made 3 WAV test tones (sine waves) for you to checkout...they are:#1 (300Hz) // #2 (500Hz) // #3 (700Hz)please pop them in SonicStage and:1. select them all (all 3 signals) <=== IMPORTANT2. convert Them to ATRAC3plus (any bitrate)3. delete the WAV files.4. listen to them...or better yet, open them in sound forge or (after converting to WAV) in any other WAV editor of choice.please let me know if you get part of signal #1 in #2 and part of #2 in #3.i really need to know if this is a widespread issue or something caused by some kind of flaw in windows (or SonicStage)peaceps: please change the extension to RAR for the attached file Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerfuffle Posted July 10, 2006 Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 Did what you asked . . . And I did get part of signal #1 in #2 and part of #2 in #3. O.O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dispher Posted July 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 well i guess this IS a widespred problem :Si really hope they fix it soonthanks for giving it a go... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grenert Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 This does sound like a bug, but are you sure it would be a problem in most circumstances? I assume that the end of the previous track that gets added onto the start of the next track is missing from the first track (i. e. that it is shifted to the next track, rather than duplicated). Usually when you're listening to gapless music, you probably listen straight from start to finish (at least I do). So, I wouldn't expect that you'd notice anything: The first track ends a little early, but is continued on the next track gaplessly, and then the "true" next track begins. Am I missing something? I've ripped gapless CDs using SS 3.4 and haven't noticed anything wrong during playback...-J. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerfuffle Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Except in this case, the beginning of the second track is added to the end of the first track, instead of the end of the first track being added to the beginning of the second track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dispher Posted July 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 This does sound like a bug, but are you sure it would be a problem in most circumstances? I assume that the end of the previous track that gets added onto the start of the next track is missing from the first track (i. e. that it is shifted to the next track, rather than duplicated). Usually when you're listening to gapless music, you probably listen straight from start to finish (at least I do). So, I wouldn't expect that you'd notice anything: The first track ends a little early, but is continued on the next track gaplessly, and then the "true" next track begins. Am I missing something? I've ripped gapless CDs using SS 3.4 and haven't noticed anything wrong during playback...-J. P.that's very true...if you listen to the whole LP in one shot, the error will be 100% transparent to you (because there is no duplication). but if you have gapless remixes / techno & trance / other stuff ... that are all gapless but deferent styles (track 1 is not related to track 2 in anyway but they play continuously) this will be a bummer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grenert Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 that's very true...if you listen to the whole LP in one shot, the error will be 100% transparent to you (because there is no duplication). but if you have gapless remixes / techno & trance / other stuff ... that are all gapless but deferent styles (track 1 is not related to track 2 in anyway but they play continuously) this will be a bummer!Yes, I see now that would be an annoying problem. Does SoundForge have the same problem? Maybe you could use a standard ripper to rip to WAV, then use SoundForge to convert to ATRAC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dispher Posted July 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Yes, I see now that would be an annoying problem. Does SoundForge have the same problem? Maybe you could use a standard ripper to rip to WAV, then use SoundForge to convert to ATRAC.well ... the problem itself is in the ENCODER not the ripper that’s why this error will be present regardless. Sound Forge dose rip & encode to ATRAC3plus (error free + gapless) but the downside is that the files made with it will import to SonicStage 100% ok but will have a "0times remaining transfer count" that will make them prohibited to transfer to any device! they will be "pure" aa3 files that are not wrapped in a DRM container (OMG or OMA) & for the life of me i don't know how they still get a restricted transfer bit in them!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSP62 Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Man, I keep hearing about this problem.I am glad that I do not experience this.When I rip, I use another program (Audiocatlyst) and rip to MP3 128/160/192 then import into SS then upload to my DAP and finally erase from the SS library. Would this not be a clean way for you others? Or is it that you do it because you want the atrac format? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grenert Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 well ... the problem itself is in the ENCODER not the ripper that’s why this error will be present regardless. Sound Forge dose rip & encode to ATRAC3plus (error free + gapless) but the downside is that the files made with it will import to SonicStage 100% ok but will have a "0times remaining transfer count" that will make them prohibited to transfer to any device! they will be "pure" aa3 files that are not wrapped in a DRM container (OMG or OMA) & for the life of me i don't know how they still get a restricted transfer bit in them!!! I know this sounds weird, but:I converted some WMA files to ATRAC using Sound Forge, then imported them into SonicStage. Like you, I got a "0times remaining transfer count" and I couldn't burn an ATRAC CD or transfer to my HD1. However, I then deleted the songs from my library (without deleting the actual files on disc). Then, I tried importing the same files again, and it worked! "Unlimited" transfers allowed!Go figure.And yes, we are going through all of this hassle to use ATRAC. For me, it is because some music is really hard to listen to with gaps (think Dark Side of the Moon or lots of classical music). The improved battery life is another benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSP62 Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 .....And yes, we are going through all of this hassle to use ATRAC. For me, it is because some music is really hard to listen to with gaps (think Dark Side of the Moon or lots of classical music)....I know that my Vaio Pocket can play gapless. I didn't realize that a hd-1 does not have firmware for gapless playback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dispher Posted July 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 I know this sounds weird, but:I converted some WMA files to ATRAC using Sound Forge, then imported them into SonicStage. Like you, I got a "0times remaining transfer count" and I couldn't burn an ATRAC CD or transfer to my HD1. However, I then deleted the songs from my library (without deleting the actual files on disc). Then, I tried importing the same files again, and it worked! "Unlimited" transfers allowed!Go figure.i can confirm that! good discovery man....this software REALLY needs some serious patching (or spanking) ! thanks for the tip... i guess i can (somehow) use SonicStage now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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