Hi-MD makes big promises, but doesn't deliver

[MattMoly]

I just ran out and picked up the MZ-NH600D at a local Target. I had been waiting for this baby to come out for weeks, after I had made up my mind that $200 would be better spent on a PCM playing Hi-MD player than a $250 Apple iPod Mini. Now that I have it, I find myself wishing I had sprung for the latter. The 600 is great in that it's small and has endless capacity (if you can carry the disks). But, where Sony basically lied to my face and the 600 falls short is the fact that with the Sonic Stage 2.0 software you can't record LPCM, the very reason why I wanted Hi-MD. Since the 600 has no recording input, there is no way to circumvent the softwares shortfall. Liers.

In addition to this horseshit, I also was pleased to discover that when you transfer a file to the player it, of course, makes the conversion first, but rather than saving the converted file in a temp foler, it appears to save the converted atrac file in a folder you specify, like you want them there for good. This would all be OK if I could simply delete the files at my leisure and re-convert them if I ever needed to transfer the files back to the player, but the Sonic Stage software doesn't simply refresh its library based on what is still left on your HD. Rather, it looks like it keeps its own accounting and difficulties arrose when I went and found the atrac files on my HD and deleted them, since when I tried to convert those mp3 files again, it said it didn't have the permissions or something. What's the deal with that!

As far as I am concerned, Sony needs to realize that the Hi-MD player is still miles behind the other options out there. And as such, they need to make the player and it's software as functional and flexible as possible to even have a chance against competitors such as the new iPod Mini and other mp3 players that use the 4GB microdrive that all fall within Hi-MD's price range. Their biggest mistake in this respect: Atrac3plus. They should have devoted the time and resorces spent on developing and marketing Atrac3plus on a standard more functional and marketable, like simple mp3 for instance. I mean, wouldn't it have been even easier for them to build a new MD player that supported the existing .mp3 format. They know encoding a lossy standard from another lossy standard can only lead to bad audio, so why not just use the least shitty recording?!

To conclude my rant, does anyone know of better software that exists? If none does, then does anyone know how to remove Atrac3plus files and have the software know it and account for it? Finally, can anyone give a good reason why Sony didn't build the MD players to just play mp3 files? I'd feel better knowing there was some huge limitation.

[The_Stamp]

I see that you are very concerned with your purchase. I'll help you clear up some issues.

Sony basically lied to my face and the 600 falls short is the fact that with the Sonic Stage 2.0 software you can't record LPCM,

not at all.

http://www.sony.net/Products/Hi-MD/capacity.html

Linear PCM mode achieves high quality sound recording without audio data compression. This function is useful for backing up your treasured music CDs. You may use optical cables to connect a "Hi-MD" device and a CD player to retain sound quality*.

* Only CD players with optical capability can be used.  

   

Recording with a microphone.  

 

Linear PCM mode is compatible with digital, analog, and microphone recording; you can record and play back in high quality sound, without compressing the original sound source. This function can be used in various ways such as recording a music performance.  

and...

http://www.sony.net/Products/Hi-MD/quality.html

*1  Use is presently limited to audio data that has been recorded on "Hi-MD" in PCM mode and uploaded to a computer.

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I also was pleased to discover that when you transfer a file to the player it, of course, makes the conversion first, but rather than saving the converted file in a temp foler, it appears to save the converted atrac file in a folder you specify, like you want them there for good. This would all be OK if I could simply delete the files at my leisure and re-convert them if I ever needed to transfer the files back to the player, but the Sonic Stage software doesn't simply refresh its library based on what is still left on your HD. Rather, it looks like it keeps its own accounting and difficulties arrose when I went and found the atrac files on my HD and deleted them, since when I tried to convert those mp3 files again, it said it didn't have the permissions or something. What's the deal with that!

just by fiddling around with it i discovered that your could easily delete the *.omg of the usic file simply by right clicking the file, going to properties, tab to "file info". there, select the format your wish to delete, then click "delete". that will delete the atrac file.

gotta hand it to ya about the deleting of the omg file without sonicstage knowing. that is dumb. (btw, what's with the optimizing library all about? i thought that would fix the problem. :/ oh well.)

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Their biggest mistake in this respect: Atrac3plus. They should have devoted the time and resorces spent on developing and marketing Atrac3plus on a standard more functional and marketable, like simple mp3 for instance. I mean, wouldn't it have been even easier for them to build a new MD player that supported the existing .mp3 format. They know encoding a lossy standard from another lossy standard can only lead to bad audio, so why not just use the least shitty recording?!  

sony had made a deal with "sony music" to enable DRM to its files, otherwise minidiscs wouldn't exist today. the reason mp3's can't be played by minidisc players today is beacause sony can't (legally) play them.

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To conclude my rant, does anyone know of better software that exists? If none does, then does anyone know how to remove Atrac3plus files and have the software know it and account for it? Finally, can anyone give a good reason why Sony didn't build the MD players to just play mp3 files? I'd feel better knowing there was some huge limitation.

realplayer (v10) did very well with std md's. it deleted the omg files (its a setting) after conversion. it got as close as a drag and drop could get with atrac. (drop it into the window, click "burn)

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horsecrap (censored, of course)

and please, watch your language.

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oh ya, almost forgot:P

Posts: 1

Welcome to Minidisc.org!

[Christopher]

Heh. Welcome indeed. :happy:

A wise idea would've been to look at our very informative forums via "search" and our equipment browser. If you had done so, you'd realize that this unit cannot really exploit the awesome functionality of PCM recording as the NH600 doesn't have a mic or digital in! If I were you, I would've waited and picked up the NH800 or NH900. I think you would've been much more satisfied..

..and if you wanted a *.mp3 player, then sadly, I think you should've looked into a MP3 player! Hi-MD/MD is a niche format that has certain limitations but definite appeal [i.e. live recording] to a certain esoteric genre of people. Unfortunately, people come and delve right into the format(s) without really knowing what it can and cannot do..hence frustration.

[Damage]

Your wants have been fulfilled in a future version of SonicStage, it seems. Or at least, for PCM downloads.

Only Sony can answer why or why not they decided not to include native MP3 playback on their units. Remember, though, that Sony is not your only choice in HiMD units. No doubt in the future, Sharp, Panasonic, Kenwood will release HiMD units, perhaps some with such capabilities.

If you really are not pleased with the unit, there is no reason for you to keep it. Return it and get your MiniHD player, one that would much better fulfill your needs.

[nengland]

Only Sony can answer why or why not they decided not to include native MP3 playback on their units.  Remember, though, that Sony is not your only choice in HiMD units.  No doubt in the future, Sharp, Panasonic, Kenwood will release HiMD units, perhaps some with such capabilities.  

Varuca: But Daddy! I want a golden Hi-MD now!!

Mr. Salt: You'll get your Hi-MD soon enough dear. Just as soon as it's got something better than ATRAC3plus. I promise, love!

Varuca: But Daddy, I WANT MY OGG/MP3 Hi-MD NOWWWW!!

(break to singing oompaloompas)

[The_Stamp]

THAT has got to be the weirdest first post EVER.

**shudders**

oh, and welcome... I guess.... **whistle** "HEY KURISU, bring over the crazy wagon, we got another musical addict here!"

[LowEnd]

Since I just saw "Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory" movie the other day, I thought his post was quite funny!

By the way, there is a band named "Veruca Salt" and after watching the movie I realized that must be where their name came from.

[nengland]

Seriously though, what are the chances of Sharp/Kenwood and the likes making MP3/Ogg on the MD format? Is this being realistic?

It just turns my stomach to think of having to either reencode my music collection for something of lesser quality or needlessly reencode it at a considerably higher bitrate just to correct for the inferior codec. How dorky

1Gb's a great number, but when the codec requires a higher bitrate for something that's already a relatively smaller storage than similar mp3 products...

I loved my first MD-recorder. I picked it up on the streets of Akihabara and spent the rest of my trip to Japan in a music craze, but in the end I learned that it didn't matter what was in my pocket so long as it sported a cool remote and sounded good. It was just kinda a cool sidenote that the MD format was a bit exotic...

It just makes me sad that the offering isn't as cool as it should be. Really though, do people think Sharp/Kenwood etc are going to pick up where Sony hasn't even bothered? Is there really a chance in oompaloompa hell for an OGG/MP3 MD player?

(sorry for the rant...)

[sxc]

Probably not likely for Sharp / Kenwood to make a MP3 version of MD since they license the format from Sony and Sony controls the format.

[alieninhead]

Well, there is a new MP3 standard on it's way in that gives you the ability to encode surround sound. But that's just a hook to get people on this new MP3 standard, as it also has DRM functionality. So maybe, just maybe, you'll see a new MP3 MD player utilizing this upgraded codec. Doubtful.

Beyond that, despite the recent tests, I've always found ATRAC3 to be superior to MP3. I don't mind Sony being crack heads about DigitalRestrictionManagement issues. It makes a lot of sense at this point, since a lot of bad boys and girls decided to get on Napster and the whole P2P file sharing thing went on a roll.

But ATRAC has always had built in DRM functionality, and with some good reasons. Although I don't think the good outweighs the bad. Give them some time to sort stuff out, and when the DMCA is ammended here soon it'll be legal (for US citizens anyway) to make some sort of counter measure to the ATRAC codec. For home use, of course.

~a.i.h.

[Leland]

I can't understand why so many people complain about having an extra copy of the imported file in ATRAC format stored on the PC. With giant hard disk drives costing pennies and most PC's having empty HDD bays inside, I can't imagine worrying about 20 or 40 gigs here or there.

I was really pleased with how SS 2 changed the MP3 import feature. At first, I didn't think it worked, because it is instantaneous. Then, it encodes ATRAC on the fly while transfering the music. Except for the first track, the process is multitasked with the music transfer to MD being the rate limiting step, so it is seamless and fast.

Also, to my ears, Atrac3 sounds fine. I guess that might be one advantage of being over 40.

[The_Stamp]

hey leland, did you know that you can drop mp3's in ss2? i find that SUPER useful when i want to quickly get some mp3's on my minidsc, then i just delete them afterwards!

[Leland]

I'm not surprised but I haven't tried it because I didn't know where it would put them. Does it make an album for them? Where do they go? Can you drop them onto an existing album and have them go there?

[The_Stamp]

well, if you drop it in while in all tracks display, it wont go into an album. if you are inside an album, it will put it in there (or more technically, add that album to the mp3's attributes in the ss2 library).

[Damage]

In regards to MP3s and MDs:

Keep in mind that Sony makes CD Walkmans that handles both MP3s and ATRAC3/plus files. Not only that, most of these Walkmans are either right next to them or right across the aisle.

Not only that, the obvious reply to the ATRAC only playbacks on the MD units are piracy concerns. Of course, this becomes moot since HiMDs are also FAT capable device. So you can't play MP3s natively, but you can use your HiMDs to transport them and give them to your friends if you so wish just by dragging and dropping, using the good old sneaker-net. Most HD players or flash MP3 players that uses drag and drop doesn't even bother with any sort of DRM. So it seems very hypocritical don't it?

I can live with it, but as posts by MattMoly shows, this will be a very critical issue with HiMD in time to come. Trust me on this, this lack of feature will make the MP3-NetMD controversy look like nothing.

[Leland]

To The Stamp: OK, I tried the drag and drop. Directly onto an album or into the album contents if they are being displayed. Very cool. Vast improvement.

To Damage: Don't get me wrong, I agree that native MP3 playback would be a good thing. Since it's the defacto standard, many other programs can use it. I've resigned to ATRAC because I've used MD for years, like it and have to use it. Still, when I want to bring a song into Cooledit or through my guitarport software for my POD XT, I have to convert it to MP3 from ATRAC in order to do so. Usually I just find another copy from Kazaa. If I cant find a good one quickly, I burn the file to a CD-R from Sonicstage, which I can do since I own a VAIO PC.

BTW, did you know window media player can play the .omg files on your HDD? It won't let you burn a CD as it knows they are protected, but it can play them FWIW.

[sxc]

Are you able to get Windows Media Player to recognise OMG files like it does with mp3 files? ie can you add OMG files to your media library and create playlists from them?

[Damage]

Personally, I don't mind ATRAC either, now that I've been accoustmed to it for over a year now (since the first generation of ATRAC CD Player to HiMD). However, I'm pointing out the obvious flaw of the HiMD players... Which seems even more glaring now that Sony's announced a MP3 HD player. Y'smell what I'm cooking right?

[Leland]

No, Sony did not announce a MP3 HD player. They announced a VIDEO player that can also play MP3 (because that is the sound format from the video compression format and not playing it would be dopey). They do not intend this to be a product that people buying a music player will buy. That is obvious from the price, battery life, etc.