Creative's MuVo Slim, Creative's Zen Touch or Hi-MD nh900

[jthm]

Well after doing a bunch of research I've decided I hate iPod because of the low battery life, high prices and "trendiness". So I checked out iRiver and found out the same deal with it pretty much. Creative seems to be offering afforable models with great features but I'm still looking at the 900 Hi-MD.

So your opinions please:

Creative Zen Touch

Technical Specifications

Size WxHxD : 4.12" x 2.7" x 0.866"

Weight : 7.05 oz with battery

Capacity : 20GB1

Battery Life : Up to 24 hours2 of continuous playtime

Interface : USB 2.0 (backward compatible with USB 1.1)

Playback Format : MPEG Audio Layer 3 (MP3), Windows Media™ Audio (WMA) and WAV

Signal-to-Noise Ratio : up to 97dB

Channel Separation : up to 74dB

Frequency Response : 20Hz - 20kHz

Harmonic Distortion Output : less than 0.1%

Operating System/Firmware: Reprogrammable3

Headphone out : 1 x 1/8" stereo minijack

Display : 160 x 104 pixel resolution, blue EL backlit LCD

Creative offers a one-year limited hardware warranty.

Creative MuVo Slim

Technical Specifications

Size: (WxHxD) 55.0mm(2.2") x 85.0mm(3.3") x 8.0mm(0.3")

Weight: 34g (without battery) or 45g (with battery)

Capacity*: 128MB and 256MB built-in flash memory

Battery Type: Li-ion 3.6 VDC

Battery Life**: WMA 64Kbps, up to 9hrs of continuous play back on fully charged battery.

MP3 128Kbps, up to 17hrs of continuous playback on fully charged battery.

Interface: USB 2.0. Compatible with USB 1.1

Playback Formats: MPEG Audio Layer 3 (MP3) and Windows Media Audio (WMA) with DRM

Recording Formats: Voice - IMA ADPCM, MONO

FM Radio - IMA ADPCM, STEREO

Signal to Noise Ratio: >90dB

Channel Separation: >63dB

Frequency Response: 20Hz - 20kHz

Harmonic Distortion: 0.05%

Headphone Output: 1/8" stereo minijack

LCD: 132x32 pixel

Of course everyone knows the 900 specs. So far it seems the 900 will be the most expensive, the zen touch the bulkiest and largest storage, the creative one's have an fm radio. Conversely the MuVo slim is the smallest. I'm kindof lost as far as recording capabilities. So thoughts, opinions?

[Christopher]

How much music do you have to store?

[jthm]

Well I have around 9gigs of music at the moment but that could change. Really I'm looking for something that will fit in my pocket, is affordable, longevity, battery life, and sound quality.

That's one of the reasons I looked at the MuVo slim, sure it can only hold 60 or so songs but will I be wanting to listen to more than that on the go? It's slim, sexy and well made it seems. However the 180usd for a 256mb mp3 is a turnoff.

The Creative Zen Touch seems like an affordable iPod, smaller I believe, not as gaudy in my opinion, more storage for less money. The 24 hour battery is very impressive. However this assuming the quality of the battery doesn't mean I need to replace it often, same goes for the HD.

And of course the nh900 is great for recording(though I'd hafta buy a good mic too then), has a decent battery life if I get rechargeable AAs and keep the Ni-MH charged. The big qualm is alright the copyright bullshit and hassle with having to switch audio formats.

I've got time as the nh900 and Creative Zen Touch haven't even been released, I'll make sure to look for reviews of them and compare all 3 but I was hoping for thoughts from the audiophile crowd that is minidisc.org

[skyther]

Well after doing a bunch of research I, too, have decided I hate iPod because of the low battery life, high prices and "trendiness".

*looks at battery specs of the "MuVo Slim"*

Battery Life**: WMA 64Kbps, up to 9hrs of continuous play back on fully charged battery.

Oh, uh...

*looks at www.bluetin.com for MD pricing*

Sony MZ-NH1 USD393

Sony MZ-NH3D USD362

*estimates that MZ-NH900 will be approx USD340 (take 50 bucks off NH1)

15GB iPod as at apple.com USD299

20GB iPod USD399

OMFGWTF!!!11!!11!11!1 iPods are SOOOOO expensive!

Wait, do I hate the iPod? Maybe I don't...! *cough* Keepin' up with trend and technology, baby, you're a rich man!

[jthm]

Well after doing a bunch of research I, too, have decided I hate iPod because of the low battery life, high prices and "trendiness".

*looks at battery specs of the "MuVo Slim"*

Oh, uh...

*looks at www.bluetin.com for MD pricing*

Sony MZ-NH1 USD393

Sony MZ-NH3D USD362

*estimates that MZ-NH900 will be approx USD340 (take 50 bucks off NH1)

15GB iPod as at apple.com USD299

20GB iPod USD399

OMFGWTF!!!11!!11!11!1 iPods are SOOOOO expensive!

Wait, do I hate the iPod? Maybe I don't...! *cough* Keepin' up with trend and technology, baby, you're a rich man!

Wait the 900 is now 340usd?!!?! Jesus I thought 300 was pushing it....

In regards to the slim it has approx. 15-17 hours for mp3 which is the format I'd be using and that's acceptable as I can just charge it through the usb cord when I'm at home.

The iPod is a personal opinion, I can get 20gb Creative Zen Touch for less than their 15gb iPod and the Creative model has an fm tuner along with other features that the iPod doesn't. I also have tired of seeing the countless amount of iPod users walking down the street ignorantly everyday.

[Christopher]

The NH900 is not that much. It can be found in most e-tailers for under $300. It would be much more accurate to knock off $100 from the NH1 to equal the price of the NH900, not $50. Anyway jthm, I'm not very good with DAP's. I suggest you do some reading at head-fi.org/forums if you don't get any answers from us.

[jadeclaw]

Let's make it short:

Storage space:

MuVo: Too expensive for too little. If this thing is full, you're stuck, unless you can access a computer again.

Zen: Harddisks are sensitive. If anything goes wrong, everything is gone. Plus, you need a computer to change the contents. And again, if it's full, you start deleting.

NH900 : unlimited. Pop a new disc in and off you go...

Sound quality:

MuVo and Zen: Analog amp limited by supply voltage. 0.1 % distortion isn't really that good. Better portable radios achieved that in the seventies...

NH900: HD-Digital amp. Sharps Auvi is an eye opener. Sony's HD-Digital is expected to play in the same class.

Usability:

Zen & MuVo: Doesn't record from Line-In/Digital. MuVo uses ADPCM, which sounds terrible. Think first Soundcards from beginning 1990...

And add another fifty bucks for the radio remote to be able to record anything at all.

NH900: Records full HiFi, so you can add music to your collection without a computer.

Remote:

NH900: Included.

MuVo&Zen: Fifty bucks extra. See further up. Ok, it got a radio, quality of that is unknown to me.

The only real advantage of the MuVo is the size. But that's about it.

So, after adding all up, the NH900 is my recommendation. It's just more versatile.

[crazeybt1]

u know i only realized that i'd buy a NH1 if the price difference is just $50..but wtf they can't make up their minds

[skyther]

Blah. Bad estimate - the NH900 is listed as AUD100 less than the NH1 (AU699 vs 799), so take GST and sales commission, USD50 seemed like a reasonable estimate.

Please do excuse me, I'm an ignorant iPod user.

Distortion, schmortion. I thought we've been through this already? Manufacturer values can't be trusted, some understate their THD/SNR values while others overstate.

http://www.divertech.com/mgheadotl32.html

Distortion at 3% baby! Seems like the Zen is pretty good, eh? Unless you use ER-4s or E5s, you're not going to notice a difference between a THD of 0.5% and 0.05%.

And uhm, just a side note - tracks ripped with EAC in secure mode and copied into a HDP are cleaner than what you would get from a semi-cheap DVD with a substandard DAC into a MD portable, as well as the fact that HDPs are actually cleaner sources (discounting a portable's DAC/amplification stages) since it's immune to jitter. I actually considered building a PC /w an EMU 1212 as a dedicated audio source, but I guess I just don't have the cash for that yet.

[Christopher]

Please do excuse me, I'm an ignorant iPod user.

:laugh: :happy:

[crazeybt1]

LOL @ skytherx.. :laugh:

we already know that..u've caused the closure of more threads than any 1 else on the forum..

We know you're ignorant..u should practice some yoga or something.. help u get intouch with the inner more calmer u.. :cool:

[jadeclaw]

Distortion at 3% baby! Seems like the Zen is pretty good, eh? Unless you use ER-4s or E5s, you're not going to notice a difference between a THD of 0.5% and 0.05%.

Be careful, don't compare semiconductor distortion with tube distortion.

The difference lies here in the resulting frequency spectrum.

That's the reason, why the 3% for that tube amp is far less dramatic than it looks.

However, the difference between 0.5% and 0.05% in a semiconductor based amp is clearly audible.

And uhm, just a side note - tracks ripped with EAC in secure mode and copied into a HDP are cleaner than what you would get from a semi-cheap DVD with a substandard DAC into a MD portable, as well as the fact that HDPs are actually cleaner sources (discounting a portable's DAC/amplification stages) since it's immune to jitter. I actually considered building a PC /w an EMU 1212 as a dedicated audio source, but I guess I just don't have the cash for that yet.

You do know, that, except for the US version of the NH600, all Hi-MD-units have digital in?

You do know, that every MD-player, Hi-MD or old MD, buffers the data in RAM, from where it is converted using a quartz stabilised clock. No jitter here.

[skyther]

Ah, but THD is THD, see? So what exactly is THD? AFAIK, there aren't even official published THD ratios for MD portables.

Please. I can assure the average Joe will definately not be able to tell "hey, my HDP has a THD of 0.5%!" while listening with streetstyles on the back of a bus. There's no point in arguing technical terms - portable devices are designed to be taken out and about, not for careful home listening.

My home CDP has a THD of 0.0035% @ 0dB, 1kHz. Whoopa-dee-do! I couldn't even tell a difference in harmonic distortion between it and the line Pod. Oh wait... I'm listening... listening... whoa I can hear clipping at 0.2136189dB from the bass...

Well uh, uhm...

The quartz clock you're talking about doesn't play any part mechanically. Jitter occurs during disc access, and that depends on your transport, not your electronics. Why do you think you need CIRC and C1/C2 for? C2 isn't perfect either, y'know. I guess you don't understand why people pay 10 grand just for a transport, and obviously a hard drive is immune to the problems faced by optical devices. Jitter errors when reading, jitter errors when writing. If this wasn't the case, I wouldn't have a need for EAC.

*edit* and, doh...

Not all digital outputs are buffered. Jitter occurs in your cables. Your MD doesn't perfectly sync with your source. Track marks aren't placed absolutely identical to the source. There's processing lag. Writing lag. Yada yada, the list goes on.

[jadeclaw]

Ah, but THD is THD, see? So what exactly is THD? AFAIK, there aren't even official published THD ratios for MD portables.

Since that data isn't given, we have to rely on hearing tests.

Please. I can assure the average Joe will definately not be able to tell "hey, my HDP has a THD of 0.5%!" while listening with streetstyles on the back of a bus. There's no point in arguing technical terms - portable devices are designed to be taken out and about, not for careful home listening.

Joe Sixpack maybe not, definitely not in the back of a bus...

However, for the next 9 to 12 months, portables are the only Hi-MD units available. And for 300 Euros, I can expect a decent sound quality at a good home system.

My home CDP has a THD of 0.0035% @ 0dB, 1kHz. Whoopa-dee-do! I couldn't even tell a difference in harmonic distortion between it and the line Pod. { stale joke removed }

While I do not claim to have the 'Absolute' ear, my hearing works well enough to hear the difference between different CD-players.

The quartz clock you're talking about doesn't play any part mechanically.

It doesn't, that's right.

Jitter occurs during disc access, and that depends on your transport, not your electronics. Why do you think you need CIRC and C1/C2 for? C2 isn't perfect either, y'know.

CIRC=Checksum. C1 = physical error correction level, quite weak btw.

C2 = psychoacoustical error correction, for that to work, atleast one sector must be cached, modern CD-players store up to 128 sectors to use for interpolation.

Cheap cd-players have problems in this area, as good algorithms need a lot of optimizing and that cost time and money. Certain copyprotected cds deliberately contain errors, pushing the cd-player into the C2-level to prevent ripping in data-drives, reducing the soundquality as well.

And the cache is the reason, why jitter is no problem here and in fact doesn't appear at the digital output.

The data goes into the cache at a variable rate and is read at a constant rate.

I guess you don't understand why people pay 10 grand just for a transport,

I do understand, and I don't claim, that they do it for prestige alone. Remember C2 from above. It's one of the reasons.

and obviously a hard drive is immune to the problems faced by optical devices. Jitter errors when reading, jitter errors when writing. If this wasn't the case, I wouldn't have a need for EAC.

What these ripping programs call jitter is in reality the failure of the C1 correction, leaving you with some nice soundeffects. There are multiple strategies to get the data finally off the disc and the EAC authors found strategies, that are the most successful for most CD-ROM-drives.

However, optical devices don't have these problems either, when the CD is formatted as a data-disc.

Then you have a C1 correction stronger than the one used in a harddisk, eliminating all the problems you have with the CD-Audio format. Drawback: you have less space on the disc. Roughly 15% less.

Not all digital outputs are buffered.

All digital playback-devices are buffered, as the DA-Converter needs a constant data-stream, any gap will be directly audible. The same is necessary for the digital output on home equipment.

Jitter occurs in your cables.

Negligible. The receiving circuit locks on the datastream with a PLL and recovers the clock from that. Any jitter is filtered out by the Loop-filter. The DA-Converter receives a constant jitter-free bitclock. Each data word is latched and then clocked out absolutely synchronous with that bitclock.

Since everything is edge-triggered, the synchronicity is necessary for the whole thing just to work right.

Your MD doesn't perfectly sync with your source.

In that case, the output is muted and 'Din Unlock' appears in the display. Happens only with defective cables or when a digital radio receiver or a DVB-box loses reception.

Track marks aren't placed absolutely identical to the source.

Track marks are start points only, if they are set to late, the first few frames are missing from the song, after that, it has nothing to do with soundquality. Track marks are always set synchronous with frames. Btw, a cd has 75 frames per second, MD has 60 frames per second, and that each step on the jog dial on rehearsal mode moves the track mark a frame forward or backwards. Professional CD-players can define startpoints and these can be moved framewise as well.

There's processing lag. Writing lag.

Sure, but that is only the time needed to push the data through the whole system. It has nothing to do with the datarate as everything is locked onto a fixed clock source.

Remember, it takes a day to build a car, but every three minutes a car comes off the assembly line...

[skyther]

Portable = portable. Home stereo = home stereo. Don't mix up specifications that concern one category for another.

Obviously there are differences between CD players - but is the difference related to the difference in THD? I doubt you could really tell.

Here we go again, the key word being interpolation. Is interpolated data true to the source? Not all the time. Mind you, many Lite-On drives out in the market now have C2 success rates of over 90%. And just as you said, cheap CDPs aren't the best at error correction, so which is going to produce better results; ripping from EAC or recording from a CDPs playback? Then again, don't mix audio and data CDs up - the former isn't required to be bit perfect, since reading is done in r/t and there's interpolation anyway.

In electronics, timing isn't just controlled by your clock. Your current cycle plays a big part in this. With varying currents and the substandard power supplies used in mass market CDPs, a stable clock, you are not getting. There should (normative statement) be a buffer behind every stage, including digital outputs, but most CDPs don't have them. When you're sending 705600 light pulses a second, there is bound to be jitter errors without a dedicated output buffer.

Depending on the quality of your cables, there will be occassional jitter. Not as bad as it were reading or writing a disc, but it's present. A PLL isn't going to do much for clock synchronization if the input data has been corrupted by jitter in the first place. Obviously the data latency isn't going to change your sound quality much, but based on the original issue, the MD copy of a CD will be inferior to a copy ripped from a proper EAC install.

The thing is, if you record 2 MDs the same way from the same identical sources, you'll end up with different results. It's not bit-for-bit perfect, which isn't what digital is supposed to be about. You'd get much closer results comparing 2 different rips of the same CD.

[jadeclaw]

Portable = portable. Home stereo = home stereo. Don't mix up specifications that concern one category for another.

Certain price category = certain quality level. I know, that a small portable recorder can not reach the sonic performance of a home deck, the output driver alone isn't capable of that because of the low supply voltage. But, whatever the limitations, for 300 Euros ( 600 AUD) I can expect a decent quality.

Btw, I've sold my r500 because of the playback side. Recordings were as good as when they would have been made on a home deck. And when recording from Digital in, there shouldn't be a difference between home deck and portable recorder, as the signal is already in the digital domain.

Obviously there are differences between CD players - but is the difference related to the difference in THD? I doubt you could really tell.

It can, it can be something different, it can be frequency response, it can be phase shift throughout its frequency range, it can be slow output amps - there are a lot of factors affecting the result. Even the supply regulators for the output stage affects the sound - that is even a science of its own. Oh, and never use tantalum capacitors in audio circuits, you definitely hear them.

Here we go again, the key word being interpolation. Is interpolated data true to the source? Not all the time. Mind you, many Lite-On drives out in the market now have C2 success rates of over 90%. And just as you said, cheap CDPs aren't the best at error correction, so which is going to produce better results; ripping from EAC or recording from a CDPs playback? Then again, don't mix audio and data CDs up - the former isn't required to be bit perfect, since reading is done in r/t and there's interpolation anyway.

Hmm, over 90%? On which type and size of surface defect?

If you treat your cds like I do (they still look like new), then you should reach 100% success on C1 already. And if C1 is successful, you have no interpolation, you have a bit-true result, regardless if you rip or play back through optical out of a regular cd-player.

In addition, C2 is never employed, when reading audio cds digitally in a cd-rom drive. It is only used in realtime playback in audio mode, but that never delivers data via IDE, only via audio out/SP-DIF.

Finally, the reason why the developers of the cd-audio format went for interpolation, instead of a stronger physical correction was the additional space( read: playing time ) necessary for error correction data. Today it sounds silly in view of DVD and multi gigabyte harddisks, but in 1982 it was quite different.

In electronics, timing isn't just controlled by your clock. Your current cycle plays a big part in this. With varying currents and the substandard power supplies used in mass market CDPs, a stable clock, you are not getting.

If nothing is stable in a cheap cd-player, the clock is.

Jitter is never a problem with quartz crystals, frequency drift is. But that is quite slow and usually less than 0.1 % over the full temperature range. Even with chinese 10 cent crystals...

However, insufficient power supplies lead to different and audible problems. (See further up)

There should (normative statement) be a buffer behind every stage, including digital outputs, but most CDPs don't have them. When you're sending 705600 light pulses a second, there is bound to be jitter errors without a dedicated output buffer.

It's 1.4 million pulses per second, btw.

Nevertheless, output buffers are already designed into the chipset, so that is not a problem.

In addition, the most used Toslink transmitter, the TOTX178 has a dedicated driver for the LED included, so the LED is never driven directly by the players chipset.

Depending on the quality of your cables, there will be occassional jitter. Not as bad as it were reading or writing a disc, but it's present. A PLL isn't going to do much for clock synchronization if the input data has been corrupted by jitter in the first place.

If the signal has deteriorated that far, most digital devices will refuse to lock on.

Obviously the data latency isn't going to change your sound quality much, but based on the original issue, the MD copy of a CD will be inferior to a copy ripped from a proper EAC install.

Not if you use Hi-MD in Linear PCM-mode.

The thing is, if you record 2 MDs the same way from the same identical sources, you'll end up with different results.

Only as long as any data reduction is used. (Atrac)

Use Hi-MD with Linear PCM and you'll get identical results.

It's not bit-for-bit perfect, which isn't what digital is supposed to be about. You'd get much closer results comparing 2 different rips of the same CD.

Data reduction can never be bit-true, but that should be clear, considering that 80% of the data is thrown away.

[skyther]

The 300 Euros you pay doesn't necessarily gurantee you better sound. Portable equipment is designed with size and power consumption as it's top priorities. Sony has, for years, used a general amplifier circuit for it's portable products across it's range, only making slight modifications for each model. Shared design/platform = lower production costs. The HD amp reflects on the same interests. Class Ds are power efficient, but they aren't guranteed to produce better sound. I see no where in Sony's advertising material where it states that a HD amp will result in better quality sound.

Class D amps don't have a large share in the audiophile market. Where sound quality is concerned, "Class A" has always been favoured.

C2 is used in audio ripping via IDE. Do a Google.

A rip of a CD done on a PC (EAC), once again, will be a cleaner rip than one done by MD, even if it's in PCM. EAC slows down to re-read a scratched portion of a CD until it gets consistant results, a CDP doesn't. A PC reads the CDDA tracks as data, and from then on it's bit perfect. The data does not undergo DSP, unlike in a CDP. Different CDPs have digital outs of varying quality, despite the fact that it's "digital".

I never said anything about jitter and quartz clocks, I thought you brought that up. Regardless of individual components, they all work on power as a common requirement. You can't expect much from a 1.2V rechargable.

All electronics have tolerance thresholds. As long as the signal does not deteriorate pass limits, there is no harm done. This 'signal deterioration' will be reflected in the sound. Which is why I have Rubycon caps in my amp.

Can the recording ability of a portable match those of a deck? Absolutely not. The components used in a deck are completely different. Maybe you ought to try comparing a recording done in a proper deck, say a JB9xx or JAxxxES series and compare it to one from your portable.

[mutant1345]

i looked at the web page for the two mp3 players and at first i thought the muvo slim was a pretty good choice but the amount of space is disgustingly low...then i took a second look at the zen touch and i thought it would be okay but ....i hate mp3 players myself so i cant give a good oppinion on it. but its got 20 gigs and the same battery life as a hi md player yet it looks pretty heavy delicate and you are stuck with that amount of space ...however there is an arguement about the amount of discs needed to to equal that amount of space and the price of those discs well its not like you are going to try and put all your music collection on to a movable media as soon as you get whatever you choose....collect the discs over the course of time and you will soon find that youve collected enough discs to hold the same if not more music than a hdd after a few months or a year of having the player and collecting discs.....thats my opinion on how it might happen

[jadeclaw]

In addition, the price for the 1GB discs won't stay at 7 bucks. WalMart was already cheaper, however, I would never buy anything at WalMart, but that's a different topic...

[crazeybt1]

hmm... u saying this based on he past i presume where normal mds was between $5-$10 n now it's like $2... in this day n age i hope :wink: