Recording Live Pcm Or Hi-sp?

[TideBleach]

Should I record in PCM or HI-Sp. The recording will be a little over 2 hours. Should I tape in PCM and just do a disc switch after its full. or should I record in Hi-Sp and get the whole show with no cuts?

[A440]

How inconvenient will it be to switch discs during the show? Will there be a gap in the program? You'll need about 30 seconds to save the recording before you can switch discs. (Of course, if there's an intermission you can switch then).

If it's possible to use PCM, then use it. If it's not, don't worry. If, for instance, you do need to stay stealthy, or there's no convenient gap, Hi-SP is more than acceptable. I use it a lot.

[Wedge]

As I don't trust Hi-MD disks yet, I use Hi-SP by default, on Hi-MD formatted 80 minute MDs, giving 2hrs 20 per disc.

[greenmachine]

Should I record in PCM or HI-Sp. The recording will be a little over 2 hours. Should I tape in PCM and just do a disc switch after its full. or should I record in Hi-Sp and get the whole show with no cuts?

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Depends on your quality demands, I'd say the compression in SP mode is such good that it sounds almost the same, but you can try for yourself by doing a double-blind listening-test...

The LP mode gives a significant degradation of sound quality IMHO though.

Edited April 25, 2005 by greenmachine

[ozpeter]

It's such a personal thing - some people claim to have the kind of ears that can hear the difference but I'm pretty sure I can't.

About a week ago I had to record three classical concerts for FM stereo radio over two days. I used one 1gb MD running Hi-SP as backup to an audio CD recorder for the whole lot, including some rehearsal material. (And I didn't need to recharge the camera battery I use with the NH900 either).

The first concert involved two internationally known opera singers with Steinway piano in this city's largest hall. The second involved contemporary percussion works, plus a work for clarinet and piano, in an ABC concert studio. The third involved cello, violin and piano, and piano solo, in a 'stately home' ballroom. So plenty of varied and demanding material. Mics used included expensive Sennheiser MKH series items.

I'd be happy to use any of the backup material for broadcast - and as the audio CD recorder went belly up on a defective CD for part of one half of the first concert, Hi-SP MD is what we'll use for part of the broadcast of that concert. I've edited it together with the rest of the audio CD recorded material that was usable, and if there's any difference in practice, I can't hear it through high grade studio headphones. (Oh, and the download using SS3.0 was fine).

When the broadcast goes out I'll try to remember to post details and if there's anyone here in the Melbourne area who hears it and can spot the Hi-SP MD items, I'll give 50 dollars to charity! It also goes out on the net but not in a quality that would amount to any kind of test.

[greenmachine]

FM quality should be well below HI-SP quality, so if you don't have the original recording, high end equipment , good ears and practice in detecting artifacts, I'd say it's indistinguishable from uncompressed PCM in most cases.

[Christopher]

As I don't trust Hi-MD disks yet, I use Hi-SP by default, on Hi-MD formatted 80 minute MDs, giving 2hrs 20 per disc.

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What would make you trust it?

[Skradgee]

I have a reason not to trust Hi-MD discs. There are spots of silence in a few of my recordings made with muh MZ-NH1, and it has only happened with Hi-MD discs (two, out of the six I own have had this problem). I'm not sure how it happend. I suppose it may be due to dirt or dust inside the disc casing, because I'm sure the recorder was not receiving any physical shocks while I was recording. In any case, I have not had this problem with Sony 80min standard MDs in Hi-MD mode. Strange. My other Hi-MD blanks have worked alright tho.

Has anyone else had this problem of....'spots of silence'?

[Wedge]

What would make you trust it?

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Well, so far, I've only used 1 Hi-MD disc. I have only used it for transferring pre-recorded music off CD for listening to in work.

One of the albums I transferred (all done in Hi-SP mode) had some glitches - brief blips of white noise type stuff.

I have yet to use a Hi-MD for recording due to these glitches. I need to do some testing with all 3 Hi-MDs I've got - doing recording rather than transferring. But that will take time!

So - to answer your question, in order to trust the discs for recording, I will need to test them first.

[TideBleach]

is hi-sp the same quality as a normal 80 minute mini-disc in the 80 minute mode?

[KJ_Palmer]

'Normal' SP (recorded with real-time ATRAC Type-R) is in fact slightly better than Hi-SP, going by bitrates (SP = 292kbps, Hi-SP = 256kbps).

Personal experience also bears this out to some extent, however in practice the difference is really too slight to worry about (IMO), and for compressed formats both codes are excellent.

[greenmachine]

'Normal' SP (recorded with real-time ATRAC Type-R) is in fact slightly better than Hi-SP, going by bitrates (SP = 292kbps, Hi-SP = 256kbps). 

Personal experience also bears this out to some extent, however in practice the difference is really too slight to worry about (IMO), and for compressed formats both codes are excellent.

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It's not just about bitrate, it's also very important how you throw 'unnecessary' bits away, frequencies you are supposed not to hear, this is why all these different lossy audio codecs like mp3, ogg vorbis, mpc, aac, wma, atrac, ac3, real audio and so on, exist. I believe Sony claims the new Atrac3plus to be even superior to their older Atrac Type whatever, despite it's slightly lower bitrate, although it has yet to be proven.

Edited April 27, 2005 by greenmachine

[TideBleach]

so should i use a himd in hi-sp or a normal 80 minute one in hi-sp?

[greenmachine]

so should i use a himd in hi-sp or a normal 80 minute one in hi-sp?

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It's exactly the same thing, Hi-SP is Hi-SP and uses Atrac3plus, whatever disc you're using, you'll just have significantly more recording time with a Hi-MD. Recording in old 292 kbit/s SP Atrac is no longer supported by Hi-MD units, just playback.

[TideBleach]

oops i wans't thinking when i asked that lol. Thanks for the replies everyone!!!

[kooterb]

I have a reason not to trust Hi-MD discs.  There are spots of silence in a few of my recordings made with muh MZ-NH1, and it has only happened with Hi-MD discs (two, out of the six I own have had this problem).  I'm not sure how it happend.  I suppose it may be due to dirt or dust inside the disc casing, because I'm sure the recorder was not receiving any physical shocks while I was recording.  In any case, I have not had this problem with Sony 80min standard MDs in Hi-MD mode.  Strange.  My other Hi-MD blanks have worked alright tho.

Has anyone else had this problem of....'spots of silence'?

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I just recorded a Black Crowes show with my

MZ-NH900 set in Hi-SP mode and had about a 2 second

drop out, toward the end of the show.

I am fairly sure I didn't bumb it during

the show and when I saved the data I held it

very still until in finished. This has not happend before

and I have handled the MD at some other shows and had no problem.

One other thing Sonic Stage will not transfer the show,

I have transfered other shows with no problem.

Ant thought?

KooterB

[A440]

One other thing Sonic Stage will not transfer the show,

I have transfered other shows with no problem.

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This probably isn't the problem, but check to see if the write-protect tab got slid so it's partly open. It has to be closed (unprotected) so SonicStage can mark the disc.

[zride96]

I have had similar experiences with my MZ-NH1 using Hi-MD discs and Hi-SP recording mode. I have 2 different live recordings where the recorder drops audio for about 1 sec and then shortly after there will be another dropout about 5 mins later for 2-3 seconds. It's really annoying! I have used standard MDs in Hi-SP for live recording and have not run into this problem.

Just for grins, tonight I chatted with Sony's online support to let them know about it. Of course they were useless but said they would forward my conversation to the management of Sony's "customer information services center". Maybe if we all make enough noise Sony will take notice and find a solution.

What's even more annoying is that once the recorder drops audio you can forget about uploading your live recording. You will get a message "An Internal Error Has Occured". Guess I will only use Hi-MDs for PCM recording and MDs for Hi-SP.

Such a nuisance! Even Sonic Stage will stop playing the track through the computer once it hits that dropout. Tried using Total Recorder to get a bit accurate transfer in real time and it stopped playing when it hit that dropout. Grrr...

Overall I have been happy with my MZ-NH1. I have gotten into some great shows with it being so small and the recording quality can be fantastic in PCM mode with high quality mics. Not many other options for portable high quality recording that can easily be uploaded to the computer. It would be ideal if 2GB Hi-MDs would exist and then Hi-SP would be a thing of the past for me. Just hate the disc flip stress.

[dex Otaku]

I tend to use PCM mode for music and environmental [i.e. ambient sound] recordings, and HiSP for voice.

I have fallen back to using HiSP for music recordings on HiMD-formatted MD80s when I expect a show to last longer than 90 minutes. I have not, so far, ever made a recording on my HiMD that had noticeable artifacts, even after editing and subsequent re-encoding to [lame --alt-preset standard] MP3s.

Certain recordings [especially ambient] have really odd-sounding artifacts after only 2 lossy compressions, but again, most people don't notice them even if I do.

Note that I find LP2 unacceptable for anything but first-generation recordings encoded by hardware. I find SS's LP2 encoding to be unacceptable in almost all cases I have tried thus far.

I have been using my one HiMD [1GB] repeatedly since getting my NH700 last August without a single problem that seemed disc-related.

Note that recently I have been recording, on average, a couple of hours per week [in PCM mode]. I have not experienced dropouts or anything of the sort.

Other users have reported defective discs, so keep in mind that your mileage may vary.

[A440]

I'm joining those who have given up on Hi-MD discs for crucial recordings.

I recorded a (staid, seated) concert in PCM on a 1GB disc and it created a fraction-of-a-second silent glitch near the end of one track. SonicStage 3.1 tagged it as uploaded but didn't completely upload it--there's no .oma file for it. Since it's still on the disc I tried the Total Recorder method but Sonic Stage stops playback at the glitch. And of course now I can't edit out the glitch on the disc because it's locked by SS.

I'm glad I made track marks during the show--otherwise the whole second half would have been unavailable.

Called Sony, which suggested I record it analog. Gosh, I never would have thought of that myself. I suggested they make products that work as advertised.

Maybe those cute new blue transparent discs will work better, but I'm not counting on it.

[jevsah]

I'm joining those who have given up on Hi-MD discs for crucial recordings.

I recorded a (staid, seated) concert in PCM on a 1GB disc and it created  a fraction-of-a-second silent glitch near the end of one track. SonicStage 3.1 tagged it as uploaded but didn't completely upload it--there's no .oma file for it. Since it's still on the disc I tried the Total Recorder method but Sonic Stage stops playback at  the glitch. And of course now I can't edit out the glitch on the disc because it's locked by SS.

I'm glad I made track marks during the show--otherwise the whole second half would have been unavailable.

Called Sony, which suggested I record it analog. Gosh, I never would have thought of that myself. I suggested they make products that work as advertised.

Maybe those cute new blue transparent discs will work better, but I'm not counting on it.

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When you said "I'm glad I made track marks during the show--otherwise the whole second half would have been unavailable" did you mean that you wouldn't have been able to playback at all or you wouldn't have been able to upload it?

Edited May 26, 2005 by jevsah

[A440]

Uploading. The glitch stops uploading and SonicStage playback. It doesn't stop playback from the unit via headphones.

If I didn't have track marks, and wasn't aware of the glitch before trying to upload, the whole show would have been locked as uploaded and impossible to edit.

[jevsah2]

Uploading. The glitch stops uploading and SonicStage playback. It doesn't stop playback from the unit via headphones.

If I didn't have track marks, and wasn't aware of the glitch before trying to upload, the whole show would have been locked as uploaded and impossible to edit.

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Thanks! One other question, when you have a dropout is there a skip in the music or is it inserting a gap in the track? I do live recording myself and I would rather live with a dropout (if I could edit it out later) and record in PCM rather than record in HI-SP.

[A440]

It's a short silence in the track, and I think a bit of the music is gone.

I haven't tried editing around the silence, since I can't edit the one that didn't upload.

You may get lucky, as Dex did, and have a disc without any defects. If you put track marks in as you go, the most you'll lose is a a song.

[jevsah2]

It's a short silence in the track, and I think a bit of the music is gone.

I haven't tried editing around the silence, since I can't edit  the one that didn't upload.

You may get lucky, as Dex did, and have a disc without any defects. If you put track marks in as you go, the most you'll lose is a a song.

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I usually record it into the pc in realtime via soundcard or through SS because I don't trust the software. I have had older md's playback with a dropout but that was deck related and wasn't on the actual recording. I wonder if anyone has tried to record over the same disc to see if the dropouts occured in the same places if at all. I have only recorded on one HI-MD disc and didn't have a problem so I can't check myself.

[deadwing]

This happened to me for the first time last night on Hi SP on my MZ NH1. About 2/3rds the way through, a 2 second gap, two seconds of music then another two second gap-and then the same a couple of minutes later.

When I tried to download to the pc with soundstage 3.1, I just got an error message. I didn't know why this was happening, but nothing had transferred at all. After several tries, the penny finally dropped that the drop outs i'd heard when I played the recording on the way home were right at that point where the transfer was failing, so how i got around it was to find a convenient place just before the point and marked a track there, then skipped to a place just past them and marked another one. The unaffected areas then downloaded just fine, and to get the missing 6 or 7 minutes, I did an analogue recording via my soundcard. The gaps were correctable in Sound Forge-not exactly 'invisible', but you'd really have to know the music to notice them. I then dropped the short analogue section in between the tow USB transferred parts and edited them so the joins were seamless.

I just formatted the disc i used last night and recorded on it to see if the drop outs occurred again in the same place-this time, no drop outs at all.

[jevsah2]

This happened to me for the first time last night on Hi SP on my MZ NH1.  About 2/3rds the way through, a 2 second gap, two seconds of music then another two second gap-and then the same a couple of minutes later.

When I tried to download to the pc with soundstage 3.1, I just got an error message.  I didn't know why this was happening, but nothing had transferred at all. After several tries, the penny finally dropped that the drop outs i'd heard when I played the recording on the way home were right at that point where the transfer was failing, so how i got around it was to find a convenient place just before the point and marked a track there, then skipped to a place just past them and marked another one. The unaffected areas then downloaded just fine,  and to get the missing 6 or 7 minutes, I did an analogue recording via my soundcard. The gaps were correctable  in Sound Forge-not exactly 'invisible', but you'd really have to know the music to notice them.  I then dropped the short analogue section in between the tow USB transferred parts and edited them so the joins were seamless.

I just formatted the disc i used last night and recorded on it to see if the drop outs occurred again in the same place-this time, no drop outs at all.

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Very interesting. I would think that means that it probably was not the disc that was the problem. There must be some other reason why the dropouts occur.