Professional Copyist Needs Help!

[mikio]

Kurisu,

I read your article on how to upload audio from md to pc, and I thoroughly understand that process. However, I am not sure about the component hookup.

The last paragraph reads: Another way to upload is to purchase a sound card with a DIGITAL input and a Minidisc deck or bookshelf with digital out. You can then upload digitally, albeit realtime with a toslink to miniplug digital cable, using the same methods described above.

Question: I have a pro sound card, EMU 0404, will it suffice? (spec/product link http://www.zzounds.com/item--EMU8803)

In the paragraph above the last paragraph, second asterik from the bottom, it reads: Start recording in whichever editor your prefer on the computer, and press play on the unit.

Question: Is Sonar 4 Producer Edition or TS Audio an editor? I'm not American so I'm almost certain I'm losing something in the translation. If my appz are not capable of uploading audio files, could you name a few?

My objective: To record simple melodic lines on my MD and have it come up on my PC as music notation.

My process thusfar (bear in mind a classical guitar recording). 1) I load CD in CD-ROM tray on PC. 2) I select a track. 3) I open TS Audio (converter app). 4) I convert AUDIO track to WAV file. 5) I save new file. 6) I open Encore (notation app). 7) I convert new (WAV) file to MIDI. 9) I tweak tempi, meter, etc ... if need be.

What do I end up with? An audio file in sheet music format. No kidding.

WARNING: This process does NOT work with orchestral CDs, or any setup of the like. That is, unless you have great ears and can separate multiple lines that have converged into ONE track. Even then, I wouldn't attempt more than a Big Band setup. I've done so but I orchestrate and arrange music for a living, and that I do by hand, not by computer. You really have to be skilled in melodic and rhythmic dictation to attempt this process.

SIDE NOTE: If it weren't for the advancement in technology I wouldn't be asking these questions. I'm an old timer and any help would be GREATLY appreciated!

Mikio

[ozpeter]

According to the info on the net your soundcard has "flexible connectivity with 1/4 in. analog I/O, 24/96 S/PDIF I/O (coaxial or optical)" - "SPDIF" means digital connectivity - so it should work with any MD apparatus that has a digital output, whether coax or optical - Have you got one? What model number/make?

In sonar 4, you should be able to find the means to select which input (analog or digital) you want to record from. Once you've found that, you should be on the home run to recording the output of the mindisc deck to your PC - assuming the deck has the digital output.

Edited May 20, 2005 by ozpeter

[A440]

How you'll do this depends on which MD unit you have: Hi-MD or previous generation MD. With Hi-MD, you upload the recording through SonicStage and have it convert to .wav and continue as you would with a tune ripped from a CD.

With NetMD or earlier generation MD, you aren't uploading, you are recording in real time.

You can do this with an optical out if you have an old MD deck, but for your purposes you don't need the pure digital connection, so if you don't have an MD deck with optical out don't worry about it.

You can simply connect your headphone jack out to your soundcard in (telling Sonar to find that input as ozpeter explained). Either way, optical out or headphone out, you simply use Sonar like a tape recorder, making a .wav recording in realtime.

[mikio]

Ozpeter and A440,

I have a Sharp MD-MT821. Its manual link is posted below. It does have an Optical Line In. However, no cables.

Yesterday I purchased a Universal Optical cable from Radio Shack. It has a toslink and 3.5mm jacks on BOTH ends!

Basically, I can flip the ends to make various connections. What I don't get is how Digital differs from Optical?

Mikio

Edited May 20, 2005 by mikio

[mikio]

Oops -- Manual link -- sorry about that!

http://www.minidisc.org/manuals/sharp/shar...user_manual.pdf

Edited May 20, 2005 by mikio

[greenmachine]

An optical INput on your recorder doesn't really help for transferring to your puter, so the cable doesn't help you if you don't have a separate unit with an optical OUTput. There is no difference between optical and digital in this case, optical is just one method to transfer digitally, the other one is called coaxial (electrical).

If you don't have such a deck with optical OUT, you have to transfer it the analogue way, which can still give good enough results although it's lossy method (unnecessary additional DA-AD conversion).

[A440]

Here's the thread on how to record from MD to computer. All you need is a basic stereo miniplug to stereo miniplug connector (both ends are the same as the plug on your headphones.)

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=7070

[mikio]

A440,

I've read the link that you and Chris have left for me, but at present I don't have a mic so I can't test out my MD as of yet. However, I did purchase a stereo mic online from Mini Disco. Go to http://www.minidisco.com/ecm-ds70p.html and tell me what you think? Good choice? I liked this model for its ability to stand on its own or plug in directly to my MD without the extension cable. Hmm?

Mikio

[greenmachine]

Directly plugged-to-the-recorder microphones tend to pick up motor noise from the mechanical drive, which can be annoying in quiet situations, not so obvious for loud sources. With an extension cable and some physical separation from the recorder it can be avoided. I have to say i'm not a fan of cardioid mics with little to no separation between the elements - even if it may be convenient - in comparison to other mics this model sound pretty 'thin', that means they have a narrow frequency response, they cut off a lot of bass and some of the high frequencies - here's a little comparison with samples between different mics, mostly Sony's:

http://infos.0db.net/micros/compare/indexe.php3

But consider that all of these are one point cardioids, you can achieve a much wider, more realistic stereo image with greater separation between the left and right channel elements, keywords here are 'binaural' and 'jecklin disc'.

I don't want you to sell anything, just make you aware that there's room for improvement, but maybe they even satisfy your demands.(?)

[mikio]

GreenMachine,

Thanks for the link. Seems all those mics have a hissing issue. Luckily my mic came with a cord to minimize that somewhat. I'm planning to test that on Tuesday at an operatic recital. If the darn thing ever gets here!

What mic would you suggest I buy to achieve the best quality recording in these 4 situations?

1. live Big Band recording

2. live Guitar & Voice recording

3. live Piano recording

4. live Voice recording

Money is not an issue but compatability is. If there is a mic that works well in these sits and is unobtrusive than that's the mic for me. Feel free to advise in detail. The smaller the better. I hate lugging tons of equipment!

Mikio

p.s. I was unable to upload the sample recordings on the Sony mic page. Perhaps a quick 'How To' would be helpful. Thank you.

Edited May 22, 2005 by mikio

[greenmachine]

Microphone self-noise can get annoying in quiet passages of very dynamical sounds and for recording quiet sounds in general. For such situations it would be best to use mics with a good s/n (signal to noise) ratio together with an external higher quality / lower noise microphone preamplifier (and a power supply for the microphones, a.k.a. 'battery box' - if not built in to the preamp). Also consider that an analogue transfer from md to pc can introduce additional noise.

The best sounding most versatile costruction for me is a omnidirectional stereo microphone construction, wired like most headphones, this gives a lot room to experiment, to try out different positions / distances / baffles in between. It looks roughly like that:

I often place an 'artificial human head' in between, it gives an excellent stereo image, it can look like that (or similar):

Or for less flexibility but less cable to carry around (?) a t-style omnidirectional stereo microphone with a fixed distance (about 5-7 inches) between the elements (nevertheless an extension cable is suggested to avoid picking up motor noise from the md recorder), it looks roughly like that:

Please take a look at this recent thread, especially post #5/6 for some explanation of common microphone related jargon:

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=10218

p.s. I was unable to upload the sample recordings on the Sony mic page. Perhaps a quick 'How To' would be helpful.

p.s. Do you mean 'download', since you don't seem to have the mics or recordings so far?

[A440]

Greenmachine's omnis are similar to basic omnis (also called binaurals) like the Soundprofessionals BMC-2 and similar mics from www.microphonemadness.com , www.core-sound.com , www.reactivesounds.com and elsewhere.

For all the instrumental combinations you mention, if you don't have to worry about shutting out noise from behind you and the room acoustics are good, a pair of omnis will do your job. Be sure to get clips with them so you can place them apart for good stereo.

A source as loud as a big band is likely to need something to keep the MD's preamp from overloading. You can get an attenuator (see the pinned thread for Radio Shack Volume Attenuator) or for maximum fidelity--to completely bypass the preamp behind Mic-In--you could then get a preamp/battery box combination like Reactive's Boost Box or one of the Sound Professionals preamps and run through Line-In.

Putting the mic on a cord will reduce engine noise from the machine, but not hiss from the mic--that's coming from the mic itself.

[mikio]

A440,

What do you think of the Church Audio preamp? Is it worth buying? Will it fix hissing issues via my mic? Will I still have to buy another one?

At this point, most of what you post is mumble jumble, but please don't stop! I simply mean I'm unable to recall your advice as I research items.

I enjoy your post immensely. I'm just trying to work within my capacity before I go pro with my gear. Basically, I'm testing the waters.

Mikio

[A440]

For recording music, mic noise is nothing to be paranoid about. The music, and probably the ambient noise unless you're recording in an extremely well soundproofed studio, will very likely drown it out. Recording distant birdcalls is another story.

I've never had a Church Audio preamp to try. I keep hoping someone on this board will get one and report how it works. If I remember correctly, one of the reasons it is cheaper than most other preamps is that it only has fixed gain settings--+20dB on or off--rather than adjustable ones.

As for mic noise:

There are two sources of mic hiss. One is the mic itself. Nothing will fix that--though you may be able to lessen it when editing your recording, afterward, with an equalizer. If you run a noisy mic through a preamp then you'll also amplify the noise. But with a decent pair of mics, like everybody's basic omnis, it should be minimal unless you are recording ultra-quiet sounds. Sony brand mics can be noisy--you can do better elsewhere.

The other noise from mic recording is from the mic preamp in the MD. This, too, is negligible in anything but very quiet recordings, and you're lucky: Sharp preamps are said to be better than Sony preamps. But if you are recording very quiet sounds, then an external preamp run through line-in will eliminate that noise.

If you have the budget, get little Core Sound Binaurals--not the low cost version. That should give you a good quiet mic with its own power source that you can run through Line-In, bypassing the preamp. If those recordings turn out too quiet--but I doubt they will for the music you mention--then you could add a preamp.

[mikio]

A440,

Any suggestions on where to buy the Core Sound Binaurals mics? I hope they're not too elaborate. I'm really not one to fuss with mics and cords. I'd like it to be quick and painless. The less moving about and lugging around, the better. LOL!

Ok, so here's the million dollar question. Is there an ideal setup for what I want without having to upgrade every other month as technology advances? Let's face it, I'm of the mindset that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'd like 1 setup for a while.

Mikio

[A440]

http://www.core-sound.com/mics.html

I don't think smaller than a dime will be too big for you.

Core Sound was a pioneer in portable/stealth recording and takes pride in its reputation for quality. It is also somewhat more expensive than its competitors.

While I realize you don't want to juggle a lot of choices, it also might be worth looking at similar setups--high quality omni mics and battery box-- from www.soundprofessionals.com , whose better microhones use Audio-Technica capsules, like these:

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/.../item/SP-BMC-12

plus, if you want, a battery box. Or just try the mics alone through mic-in and see how they work for you, and then add a battery box if you want to try going through Line-In instead.

With good mics and a good recorder, you won't need to upgrade--it's doing the job you want it to do, right?

Eventually, to get your recordings quickly onto the PC so you can burn CDs, etc. then you're going to want to upgrade from your current MD recorder to a Hi-MD. Meanwhile, as long as you're happy with the MD as the final destination of the recording, you can safely ignore any further technological excitement.

[mikio]

A440,

You just hit the nail on the head. Let's get down to my ideal setup. Pretend I don't have an MD or a MIC. What would you advise me to get based on what you know I need it for? Of course, always taking into consideration portability.

Mikio

p.s. Don't worry about computer compatibility, I've got that covered.

[A440]

Well, you can go crazy with that question.

My own choice for portable recording--MD-NHF800 and basic omni mics--had to do with size, budget and my preference for removable media rather than a hard-drive-based recorder. I like minidisc because it's pocket-sized and unobtrusive and not monumentally expensive; because it's easy to insert track marks during or after recording, and because the MDs themselves are inexpensive for the amount of storage they offer. I like the MZ-NHF800 because it takes regular AA batteries without an add-on pack. On the other hand, there's the idiot Sony software, with all its restrictions, and the limitations of the MD preamp.

For something bigger and more expensive and more flexible in some ways, there's the Marantz PMD660 flash recorder:

http://transom.org/tools/recording_intervi...503.pmd660.html

Other people like Creative Zen Nomad recorders, which record on a hard drive, and I think Archos and IRiver also make hard-drive recorders. No hurdles on uploading, but if the hard-drive fails you're back to zero. (Of course, if you drop your MD and knock its optical block out of whack you're in trouble too.)

Meanwhile, the fanatics at Core Sound have a combination of analog-digital converter and PDA:

http://www.core-sound.com/HighResRecorderNews.html#NEWS

I'm sure there are other nifty recorders around, too. And if you don't care about portability, you could just plug a microphone into your soundcard and use your computer itself as the recorder with Sonar.

In your original post, you were trying to capture classical guitar so that your computer could turn it into notation. Hi-MD and a pair of mics will easily do that with the uploading capability. Your Sharp will do that for recording in realtime. It's not the fanciest equipment, and it's not the ultimate in audiophile high fidelity. But unless you've got hypersensitive ears, you don't need either one to do the job quite nicely.

[mikio]

A440,

Again, you hit the nail on the head. I could go crazy trying to make sense of MD models, let alone keep up with their advancements, so I've decided to stick with what I have. At least for now.

As for the Sony ECM-DS70P mic, it arrived on Monday and I'm going to fiddle with it some before I ask for further assistance. A hiss will definitely bother me so I will need a new mic asap.

Mikio

p.s. How do I transfer CASSETTE audio to my MD?

[greenmachine]

p.s. How do I transfer CASSETTE audio to my MD?

See operation manual, page 08,10,11

[mikio]

GreenMachine,

I tried that before posting but it didn't work. My cassette recorder is a portable handheld and I presume that's where the problem lies. The manual refers to a boom box type setup and I have no way of testing that, nor do I want to.

My cassette recorder has an EAR JACK and a PLUG IN POWER JACK. It might not be possible to transfer audio to my MD, you tell me. Is it? Also, I could be using the wrong cables. Remember I didn't get any with my eBay MD purchase.

Mikio

[greenmachine]

In this case, you need a 3.5 mm stereo male-to-male cable going from your headphone output to the MD recorder's line input.

If the 'ear jack' of your cassette recorder is 5.3 mm in diameter, you'll need an additional 3.5 to 5.3 mm adapter.

[mikio]

GreenMachine,

I tried this setup as well. When the manual didn't apply to me, I thought it can't hurt trying my new cable from Radio Shack. Needless to say, it didn't work either. Now I'm really stumped. What am I doing wrong? It's probably something really stupid, right?

Mikio

[greenmachine]

I'd like to tell you, but i can't see what you're doing, maybe if you describe the process..

[A440]

First, plug an earphone into the Ear Jack to make sure something is coming through when you play the cassette. Turn up the volume.

Once you know you're getting something out of the headphone jack, use the cord in greenmachine's photo to go from Ear Jack into line in. Push Record and Pause simultaneously and play the cassette to check the level and adjust if necessary, then rewind the cassette, un-Pause and you're recording.

[atrain]

mikio - have you considered recording the cassettes into the 'line in' on your computer soundcard, recording to wav, then transferring over optical? kind of redundant, however if there is additional hiss, siblance or buzz on the recording you could edit it out.

just throwing it in the ring, however this is far from my area of expertise so A440 please advise against it if invalid.

[A440]

mikio - have you considered recording the cassettes into the 'line in' on your computer soundcard, recording to wav, then transferring over optical?

←

Makes perfect sense to me, atrain. The idea is to turn the analog cassette recordings into digital recordings, and the computer (with a decent soundcard, which Mikio has) can do that just as well as the MD, plus the possibility of filtering noise before re-transferring.

[mikio]

A440,

Yes, there is sound out of my cassette via a headset thru the EAR jack. I then followed your directions and I received a Din Unlock error on my MD. This means the digital cable connection is not secure. Well, I've tried everything to make the connection as snug as possible, even trying different variations, and still nothing.

I suspect I have to buy a better quality 3.5-to-3.5 cable, what do you think? If so, could you suggest a brand that is available at Fry's? Buying online is great but the down time waiting on items to arrive could take me a lifetime to figure out this MD. I could be dead by then. Just kidding. I wish this darn thing was PnP. LOL!

Mikio

[A440]

You just need the basic 3.5 cable that's in greenmachine's photo. You don't need any special brand--generic is fine. It shouldn't cost more than a few pounds.

[mikio]

mikio - have you considered recording the cassettes into the 'line in' on your computer soundcard, recording to wav, then transferring over optical? kind of redundant, however if there is additional hiss, siblance or buzz on the recording you could edit it out.

←

Atrain,

If you want to walk me thru the process, please feel free. I'd love to transfer audio directly to my soundcard, I didn't know I could, I just hope I have the right cables. If not, I'll buy it when I pick up another 3.5-to-3.5 cable, hopefully at Fry's. My soundcard is the EMU 0404, it's a pro card so I'm sure it's ready for what I need it to do, but as for me? Well, let's just say I'm beginning to feel a bit defeated. But I'm not giving up. I just wanted you all to know I appreciate the time you give me online. Thanks a load!

Mikio

[A440]

I assume you can use Sonar as a recorder. If for some reason you can't, download Audacity from the Downloads section at the top of the page here. It has a big red Record button to click.

Look for a line-in jack on your soundcard. You need to connect from your cassette's Ear Jack to Line-in. Probably with the same 3.5 to 3.5 cord.

You may also have to tell your computer to record via Line-in from the soundcard. That's in Windows: Start/Settings/Control Panel/Sounds and Audio Devices/Audio.

Open Sonar, click record, start the cassette, look at the levels and adjust.

[mikio]

A440,

Yes, I can use Sonar as a recorder, I have in the past. I still need a better 3.5-to-3.5 cable to test out that method however. I'm going to Fry's tomorrow and look for a Belkin cable. They're usually very expensive but very dependable.

Could there by another reason why my MD is reading Din Unlock? Could it be a malfunction? How would I test that besides buying another cable? Everything else seems to be working fine. Could it be due to a poor quality cable?

Mikio

[greenmachine]

Is it possible that you are trying to use an optical digital cable for analogue transfer? lol

You need an electrical cable for this task and it doesn't necessarily have to be expensive to give good results, any standard cable should be fine.

[greenmachine]

Available at:

Fry's Electronics GE AV22604 Audio Cable - 6 Ft 3.5mm Plugs # 3983028

Radio Shack 6' 1/8" Stereo to 1/8" Stereo Cord # 42-2387

Edited May 28, 2005 by greenmachine

[mikio]

Is it possible that you are trying to use an optical digital cable for analogue transfer?

←

GM,

I'll be the first to admit it. I was using the WRONG cable. I returned it yesterday and all is well in the transferring department.

My question now is how do I level db/vol between MD and CASS recorder and VOL attenuator? The best playback is my main goal.

Mikio

[A440]

The attenuator is only for live loud music, don't use it.

Connect the cable from Ear Jack to Line In, hit Rec/Pause, go through Rec/Set Menu to Rec Volume/ Manual Volume, start the cassette and look at the level indicator. You want it to peak below the right-hand dash. You can do that with volume out on the cassette or Rec Volume on the MD, your choice. When you have a good level, rewind, un-Pause, start the cassette and record.

[greenmachine]

To obtain the best possible S/N ratio (less hiss), set the playback device to full volume and adjust levels with the recorder.

[mikio]

To obtain the best possible S/N ratio (less hiss), set the playback device to full volume and adjust levels with the recorder.

←

GM,

Could you clarify playback device vs recorder? To me, both MD and CASS are playback devices AND recorders. Thanks much!

Mikio

[The Low Volta]

Could you clarify playback device vs recorder?  To me, both MD and CASS are playback devices AND recorders.  Thanks much!

←

hm, if you record on MD, your casettes as they are playing... I would say that in this case the casettedeck is the playback device (and has volume maxed out) and the MD records therefore is the redorder...

greetings, Volta

[greenmachine]

hm, if you record on MD, your casettes as they are playing... I would say that in this case the casettedeck is the playback device (and has volume maxed out) and the MD records therefore is the recorder...

←

correct