New Mics - But Which?

[antimantra]

Hi all

With a lot of concerts coming up this summer I'm looking for an upgrade to my current recording setup:

Sharp DR470

Giant Squid Audio Lab Binaural Stereo Microphones

Giant Squid Audio Lab Powered Battery Box with bass roll-off filter

I've done a fair share of decent recordings with this setup, but a common problem is that they all sound kind of flat. I would like to be able to archive better results and so I'm looking for advice on a new set of mics. I record concerts in both extremes of the sound spectrum so the mics must be able to handle both quiet and noisy input.

I'd also like to get a smaller battery box as the Giant Squid one is quite large (90 x 37 x 30 mm). There must be smaller models available? I've off course come across the attenuator solution by browsing these forums, but haven't yet been convinced that this would be superior to a battery box..

Hope someone can help out with some recommendations. My total budget is $200.

[mrsoul]

Check out Sound Professionals, they have some really small battery boxes with bass rolloff available. Their Audio Technica mics are great.

Also, look at Reactive Sounds Auris mics.

You could get the Auris mics and a small battery box for under $200. Now, you really need to consider a Hi-MD to make it complete for live recording needs...but that puts the budget out of whack. Not knocking the Sharp MDs, great recorders. I miss my old Sharp DR7's ease of operation for Live needs. BTW, I started my recording hobby with a set of cardioids from Giant Squid, great price and decent starter mics but once that upgrade bug hits you, you're looking beyond them...

Have fun and keep us posted on your new purchases.

[greenmachine]

Instead of spending money for new equipment, spend some time to educate yourself about microphone placement, proper use can make the major difference if your recordings sound 'flat'. Besides, try to avoid bass roll-off filters whenever possible. To get rid of it with your current equipment, simply replace the capacitors in the battery box with some of higher capacity.

I've off course come across the attenuator solution by browsing these forums, but haven't yet been convinced that this would be superior to a battery box..

Superior? No way, it's just some kind of a cheap makeshift with some serious drawbacks. Edited May 23, 2005 by greenmachine

[deadwing]

What are the serious drawbacks?

[greenmachine]

-potentional lowering of the supplied voltage from the recorder with known drawbacks for the mic's dyamic range

-attenuation of the microphone output degrades the signal to noise ratio

-low precision components, potentially high channel variation

-susceptible to mechanical wearout and dirt

[greenmachine]

your turn, say: 'but it works'

[antimantra]

Thanks for the tips

I've now narrowed my mic searching down to either BMC-12 or the BMC-6.

Any recomendations for either over the other?

As for battery box I'm looking at SP-SPSB-9 or the SP-SPSB-2.

Neither of these offer bass roll off though and I'm not sure that's optimal for my needs.

greenmachine- What's your reason for recomending to avoid bass roll off? Won't this affect loud concerts in a negtive direction?

[greenmachine]

greenmachine- What's your reason for recomending to avoid bass roll off? Won't this affect loud concerts in a negtive direction?

If your mics are properly powered (batt. box) and you use the line-in of the recorder, you will most likely get no distortion even with loud bass, thus you simply don't need to cut off anything from the signal, which can sound thin and unnatural.

[A440]

You can hear the ill effects of bass rolloff here.

http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com/gs/gs...ry1.htm#samples

Try the Avril Lavigne for maximum nasality.

There's no point in getting good mics if you're going to chop out the bottom end of the music before it reaches the MD.

[deadwing]

your turn, say: 'but it works'

←

but it works

[A440]

It looks like the big difference between the BMC-6 and BMC-12 is in the signal to noise ratio. If you're going to be recording quiet sounds and need maximum fidelity, then spend the extra $$$ . Otherwise, you'll probably be happy with the BMC-12.

[antimantra]

So I decided for a set of BMC-6 and the SPSB-6 batter box. Seems to fit my needs well and the battery box is really small. Can't wait to test it out next week

Thanks to all who helped with tips.

[insrc]

You can hear the ill effects of bass rolloff here.

http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com/gs/gs...ry1.htm#samples

Try the Avril Lavigne for maximum nasality.

There's no point in getting good mics if you're going to chop out the bottom end of the music before it reaches the MD.

←

wow, killing example. Are you sure it's because of batt box roll off? It doesn't have bass at all, even when I try to eq it! According to that same giant squid faq "Bass roll off does not eliminate or cut off the low frequencies", only "decreases the volume of the bass". (http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com/gs/gs-faq.htm)

[greenmachine]

A common first order bass rolloff filter at approx. 100 Hz (6dB/oct. -- 50 Hz will be 6dB quieter, 25 Hz will be 12dB quieter -- 6dB quieter equals half the perceived loudness) doesn't do much damage and can be to a great part restored. In fact, it's even hard to detect sometimes with average equipment. (yellow line=frequency response)

It looks differently with a higher order filter, where it works in fact more like a bass 'cut' and is next to impossible to restore.

That said, i think it's to a great part the PA system and/or the recording position we should blame here, in fact there is relatively low bass present with peaks at 40-45Hz, but at the same time there's a huge 'hole' in the higher bass region between approx. 60 and 250Hz which is most likely not to blame on a bass rolloff filter, otherwise the low bass wouldn't be that pronounced. If people can't hear that sub-bass, it's propably due to their impotent playback equipment (loudspeakers, headphones...)

Edited June 13, 2005 by greenmachine

[A440]

Thanks for the spectrum graphs.

It could be positioning--it's not my Grado SR 125 headphones--but all the samples I've listened to on that site have similar problems with bass. The B-52's one is similarly awful, and I know they have serious bass live.

I've rarely been at an arena concert, from any kind of seat, where the midrange is accentuated like that. Usually you get muffled vocals if you're in a bad seat, not extra-clear ones. If I were running Avril Lavigne's PA, I would not make it easier to hear how out of tune she is.

I assumed it was the bass rolloff, since they said that was used, but hey--maybe the mics are just lousy.

[greenmachine]

Or he did - despite his promises not to alter the signal - some weird kind of equalizing, who knows?

[insrc]

Thanks.

Is battery box roll off a first order filter? I think I read it is about 6 dB/oct

A related question, do you think the volume level control on battery box is useful for minidisc recording or not? At loud concert, would it be necessary to low the sound level in battery box (i.e. before the minidisc input), or is the minidisc level control system enough?

[greenmachine]

Is battery box roll off a first order filter? I think I read it is about 6 dB/oct

Yes, it's a simple condenser in-line. Every 'battery box' uses one for each channel to avoid d.c. voltage entering the recorder's input. By choosing the value of this condenser, you set the rolloff frequency. By setting the value high enough, you'll set the rolloff frequency below 20 Hz, which means no rolloff at all (just for subsonics you are not suppoded to hear anyway. To build a higher order filter is a much more complex task.

1st order = 6dB/Oct

2nd order = 12dB/oct

3rd order =18dB/oct

4th order=24db/oct

...and so on...

A related question, do you think the volume level control on battery box is useful for minidisc recording or not? At loud concert, would it be necessary to low the sound level in battery box (i.e. before the minidisc input), or is the minidisc level control system enough?

It would be only useful if you only have a microphone input available (preamplifier gain cannot be reduced - when recording with camcorders, etc.). When using minidisc recorders, you should instead switch to the line-input if you're getting overload through the mic-in in loud environments.

"Attenuation of the microphone output degrades the signal to noise ratio and should only be used, when the preamplifier gain can not be reduced." (Siegfried Linkwitz)

Avoid to alter the signal before it reaches the recorder (bass rolloff...) whenever possible (if you can get a clean, undistorted signal without rolloff), you can always edit it afterwards if necessary.

[dreynolds]

I recently bought three different microphones on ebay, trying to find a good tiny stereo mic for recording live concerts and for recording music for solo flute. I’m not a professional. I have average equpment , a subwoofer, nothing fancy. I have been dissatisfied with the inexpensive mics (sony ECM 717 ) I’ve had in the past and wanted to find out if anything available for under $100, preferrably under $50 might be worth using.

I did three test comparisons, 1: recording of solo flute played through a monitor speaker and recorded by microphone, 2: recording of good fidelity celtic music with moderate dynamic range but light on deep bass, and 3: recording rock and roll at moderate/high volume. This music has deep subwoofer-throbbing, rich full bass and wide dynamic range. I played all music on my monitor speakers in my listening room and placed the microphones about 3’ apart, one pointed at each monitor speaker, about 6’ from the speaker.

These three mics are currently available on ebay.

‘Y’ stereo microphone from Microsound.inc $19.95

‘Y” stereo microphone from Minigear Laboratories model AM-is $24.95

clip-on stereo mic from audiology fx $15.

For the sample recording, I played a soundboard digital recording of the Grateful Dead that sounds just about technically perfect in my listening room, with very deep powerful bass aproaching subsonics, crisp treble, and wide dynamic range. I tried both low volume with the mics at maximum sensitivity, and moderate/high volume with the recording levels turned lower.

To my surprise, both the tiny ‘y’ microphones sounded excellent for both types of music recording. Even with boneshaking low bass played at MODERATE (Not super loud) levels, the recording sounded very very good without any kind of bass filter. It isn’t until the volume is very loud ( maybe typical rock concert levels) that bass began to detract from the recording. I would think that the volume you might hear at, say, a folk concert would be fine without any extra bass filtering with either of the two ‘y’ mics.

The celtic music sounded amazingly good at moderate volume with both ‘y’ microphones, so good it is hard to tell the microphone recording from the original cds.

The Audiology fx clip-on mic and the sony ecm 717 just didn’t have much seperation and didn’t sound lifelike (no surprise). The clip-on mic would be fine for voice or birdcalls, etc, it was very sensitive to quiet sounds. I could hear the downstairs clock ticking 35’ away on the recording. It had no humming no matter how I placed the equipment. The Sony hums, it’s junk for anything other than maybe voice diary.

The ‘y’ mics from Minigear Laboratories (AM-is) has a drawback: an annoying bass hum that won’t go away without constantly ajusting the cords and generally I had to keep touching my finger or toe near the mic to make the hum go away.)

You might not notice the hum if you are recording loud music. Also, the hum might be less noticeable outside, away from electrical interference. If you’re trying for birdcalls or anything quiet that needs low noise recording, steer clear from this one.

Hands down the superior sound was the mics purchased from Microsound. They sound really good. Maybe I’m just an Oregon hick, but for $20 I can’t believe it’s possible to get mics this good.. They come with small windscreens, (maybe too small to actually work, I have not tried them in the wind yet.) The mics have seperate cords for 2’, allowing 4’ of seperation if desired. These mics had no annoying hum no matter how I held the wire or the minidisc recorder.

Before plunking down serious bucks for good mics, you might want to try $20 for the Microsound and see if you like it. By the way, I don’t know any of the sellers and have no agenda other than my own enjoyment,

dr

[insrc]

Thanks, greenmachine, that was helpful. I guess I'll even save your posts for future reference

As you mentioned camcorders, I have a question. It is not very off-topic, because it helps to understand the mics setup for recording devices discussed here.

The only reason I wanted to go for battery box WITH level controls is a possibility to use the mics+batt.box in my camcorder (as well as in minidisc). It has only mic input and when I use an external mic the volume level is rather hot sometimes and clipping occurs. The question if I reduce the levels with battery box will it be lower on the recording as well? I'm not sure, because camcorders adjust the volume level automatically, so it may doesn't matter (while it is all below the maximum sound level - I don't fight with distortion, but only with occasional clipping, so I want the sound volume lower in the camcorder).

Is there a point to plug battery box in mic-in for minidisc? I thought the whole point of battery box was to plug it into line-in.

[greenmachine]

...if I reduce the levels with battery box will it be lower on the recording as well? I'm not sure, because camcorders adjust the volume level automatically, so it may doesn't matter (while it is all below the maximum sound level - I don't fight with distortion, but only with occasional clipping, so I want the sound volume lower in the camcorder).

If the camcorder's automatic level control works the same way as minidisc's AGC works, it needs to exceed a certain level to work. It depends on many factors such as the loudness of the signal, the microphones' sensitivity and the battery boxes' attenuation if it'll exceed that point. If it does, you'll get virtually the same compressed sound as before, but with less/no clipping. If there's no possibility to defeat that ALC, you have to work below it's threshold to get a dynamically uncompressed recording. If you're satisfied with the way the ALC works and all you need is an undistorted recording just use the battery boxes' attenuator in loud environments and don't worry.

Is there a point to plug battery box in mic-in for minidisc? I thought the whole point of battery box was to plug it into line-in.

Yes, there is, at least theoretically - the higher voltage from the battery box improves the microphones's performance/specifications. If you will notice it practically and it's worth carrying aditional gear around is a different question.

[greenmachine]

dreynolds: maybe you could put your review into a new thread, it seems somewhat lost here.

[dreynolds]

I recently bought three different microphones on ebay, trying to find a good tiny stereo mic for recording live concerts and for recording music for solo flute. I’m not a professional. I have average equpment , a subwoofer, nothing fancy. I have been dissatisfied with the inexpensive mics (sony ECM 717 ) I’ve had in the past and wanted to find out if anything available for under $100, preferrably under $50 might be worth using.

I did three test comparisons, 1: recording of solo flute played through a monitor speaker and recorded by microphone, 2: recording of good fidelity celtic music with moderate dynamic range but light on deep bass, and 3: recording rock and roll at moderate/high volume. This music has deep subwoofer-throbbing, rich full bass and wide dynamic range. I played all music on my monitor speakers in my listening room and placed the microphones about 3’ apart, one pointed at each monitor speaker, about 6’ from the speaker.

These three mics are currently available on ebay.

‘Y’ stereo microphone from Microsound.inc $19.95

‘Y” stereo microphone from Minigear Laboratories model AM-is $24.95

clip-on stereo mic from audiology fx $15.

For the sample recording, I played a soundboard digital recording of the Grateful Dead that sounds just about technically perfect in my listening room, with very deep powerful bass aproaching subsonics, crisp treble, and wide dynamic range. I tried both low volume with the mics at maximum sensitivity, and moderate/high volume with the recording levels turned lower.

To my surprise, both the tiny ‘y’ microphones sounded excellent for both types of music recording. Even with boneshaking low bass played at MODERATE (Not super loud) levels, the recording sounded very very good without any kind of bass filter. It isn’t until the volume is very loud ( maybe typical rock concert levels) that bass began to detract from the recording. I would think that the volume you might hear at, say, a folk concert would be fine without any extra bass filtering with either of the two ‘y’ mics.

The celtic music sounded amazingly good at moderate volume with both ‘y’ microphones, so good it is hard to tell the microphone recording from the original cds.

The Audiology fx clip-on mic and the sony ecm 717 just didn’t have much seperation and didn’t sound lifelike (no surprise). The clip-on mic would be fine for voice or birdcalls, etc, it was very sensitive to quiet sounds. I could hear the downstairs clock ticking 35’ away on the recording. It had no humming no matter how I placed the equipment. The Sony hums, it’s junk for anything other than maybe voice diary.

The ‘y’ mics from Minigear Laboratories (AM-is) has a big drawback: an annoying bass hum that won’t go away without constantly ajusting the cords and generally I had to keep touching my finger or toe near the mic to make the hum go away.)

You might not notice the hum if you are recording loud music. Also, the hum might be less noticeable outside, away from electrical interference. If you’re trying for birdcalls or anything quiet that needs low noise recording, steer clear from this one.

The envelope please: Hands down the superior sound was the mics purchased from Microsound. They sound really good. Maybe I’m just an Oregon hick, but for $20 I can’t believe it’s possible to get mics this good.. They come with small windscreens, (maybe too small to actually work, I have not tried them in the wind yet.) The mics have seperate cords for 2’, allowing 4’ of seperation if desired. These mics had no annoying hum no matter how I held the wire or the minidisc recorder.

Before plunking down serious bucks for good mics, you might want to try $20 for the Microsound and see if you like it. By the way, I don’t know any of the sellers and have no agenda other than my own enjoyment,

dr

[greenmachine]

hehe, i meant new topic - nevermind

[A440]

The ‘y’  mics from Minigear Laboratories (AM-is) has a big drawback:  an annoying bass hum that won’t go away without  constantly ajusting the cords  and generally I had to keep touching my finger or toe  near the mic to make the hum go away.) 

←

That sounds like the Minigear mics were badly grounded, and maybe it's just a matter of the way that particular pair was (mis)wired. You might get in touch with them, tell them about the problem and see if they have a replacement pair.