Recording Opera

[pasabaporaqui]

First of all, this is my first post, so, hello everyone!

And second: english is not my native language (please excuse any mistakes)

I've been reading lots of posts, and trying to understand, which is not easy considering the language...

The thing is, I am about to buy a hi-md recorder, the NH700 or the RH910. I know the RH910 is a 2nd generation hi-md, but I like the idea of being able to use common batteries that I can buy anywhere in case of need, which the NH700 alouds. Am I wrong?

But my real trouble is, once I have it, I want to record live opera, but I can't decide if "recording live music" settings recommended in this forum are the ideal settings for this -very specific- kind of music. I will record opera performances for myself, but will have to use a small mic like the ones that can be clipped to a shirt (stereo unidirectional, possibly the sony ECM-719 since there aren't many options where I live)

Another doubt: if I want the best recording quality, and use the minidisc on hi-md mode so I can later transform the recordings to wav. files, must I buy 1 GB disks? Will a common disk (if I format it to hi-md) give me the same recording time? Opera performances can be long, but they typically have a break, so changing the disk will be an option. I just hope that 1st act won't last longer than the disk, which wouldn't give me any other option than to use another recording quality.

I know that some of the answers I am looking for may be found if searched, and indeed I've already read many interesting ideas. But language isn't my only trouble, I am kind of "digitally-impaired"

And, really, I would appreciate if someone who is used to record live opera could share his/her experiences too.

Thank you all

[MDnewuser]

Youre biggest dilemma when recording opera i think will be the dynamics + also the length of each act, you have to leave a lot of headroom when using mic-in or you will risk distorsion. Line-in with a batterybox is easier to use but since opera has both loud and soft parts maybe thats out of the question since some parts might not be heard at all.

When it comes to length, 1 GB discs can record 1.34 uncompressed wav and 7.55 Hi-SP. Ordinary 80 MD "Hi-MDformatted" will give you 2.20 in Hi-SP. So no need for using Hi-MD discs, you can format an ordinary disc.

Finally, buy the minidisc which you feels the best for you if you like AA:s then go for it. On the other hand strongly advise against Sony mics since they do not have full frequency response. With the ECM-719 you will lack bass and highs, and that "cut out" parts of the dynamics which is very important in opera. Good luck and please tell us your experiances.

Edited June 30, 2005 by MDnewuser

[A440]

I have recorded symphony orchestras, though not opera. Running my omni mics (Sound Professional BMC-2) directly into mic-in with Low Sensitivity at about 18/30 worked well. You could use a lower setting, 13/30, if you're up close or it's Wagner.

Mic-in can usually handle unamplified music without an attenuator or battery box. I haven't tried a preamp through line-in, but perhaps someone else has.

For your microphones, look for a frequency response of 20-20,000 Hz and get omnidirectional or binaural mics (they are the same mics labeled differently). Opera houses have good acoustics and (usually) quiet audiences, perfect for omnis that hear like your ears.

For maximum fidelity, use 1GB discs on PCM and you'll get 94 minutes. But Hi-SP on a regular 80-minute disc sounds quite good too, and you'll get 2 hours and 26 minutes.

I agree with you on AA batteries for the NH700. Everything except the NH1 will take an outboard AA pack, but it is bulkier. There's no known difference in recording quality between the NH700 and other models, and if you save some money, you can get the RM-MC40ELK remote control, which is backlit and lets you adjust recording level in the dark.

[pasabaporaqui]

Thank you both, you've been of great help.

So unless I am absolutely certain about the length of each act, I will have to record using HI-SP. And forget about that sony mic. I will see if I can get my hands on something better... but whatever it is, it must be small.

It won't be Wagner, but Rossini, at least the first two recordings.. of course there will be others later, but these two are the main reason to buy the MD precisely now, because it will be an special occasion, not easy to be repeated in a long time.

So it seems that mic-in with no attenuator will do. Line-in is a risk I won't take. What I like most aren't the loud parts but the other ones (voices with light orchestra). Of course Rossini isn't Wagner, but that doesn't mean the orchestra will be playing softly, all of the time. Yes, operas are difficult!

Thank you, again

[A440]

Little omnis, like the Sound Professionals BMC-2, are easy to sneak into an opera house and remarkably lifelike.

Please try them with your home stereo cranked up first, without the attenuator, but if you're going for the lyric-opera passages you should be fine.

Semiramide? La Gazza Ladra? William Tell ?

[pasabaporaqui]

Semiramide? La Gazza Ladra? William Tell ?

←

Well, these (for now)

BIANCA E FALLIERO

Priuli DARIO BENINI Contareno FRANCESCO MELI Capellio CARLO LEPORE Falliero DANIELA BARCELLONA Bianca MARÍA BAYO Costanza ORNELLA BONOMELLI

IL BARBIERE DI SIVIGLIA

Il Conte d’Almaviva JUAN DIEGO FLÓREZ Bartolo BRUNO DE SIMONE Rosina JOYCE DI DONATO Figaro DALIBOR JENIS Basilio NATALE DE CAROLIS Fiorello BRUNO TADDIA Berta ROSSELLA BEVACQUA Un Ufficiale VITTORIO PRATO

Many wonderfull singers, just pointed out a few

And, Thank you!!

[Keith]

Hi. Thought you might like to know that I had some success recording a performance of Cosi Fan Tutte last week at the Royal College of Music, London.

I was sitting in the dress circle of the College's Britten Theatre which is quite small. I recorded in HiSP using a Sony ECM TS125 mic plugged directly into the mic-in of my RH10 - mic sensitivity low, record level 18/30. It's not a great mic but the results are not bad - a little quiet but I can probably normalise. It doesn't seem to have overloaded but I might have to remove some hiss. I will post some clips in the Gallery when I work out how.

This was my first attempt at stealth recording. I would advise that you practice your set up in advance. I was sitting close to an usher so had to be discrete. I was so distracted that the start nearly took me by surprise. I only just got the recorder set up and started in time. But I didn't get my mic clipped to my shirt in time so had to hold it through the first act - not the best set-up. So I would advise you to practice so you can start your recording quickly in the dark.

Anyway, good luck with your recordings.

Keith

[pasabaporaqui]

Hi.  Thought you might like to know that I had some success recording a performance of Cosi Fan Tutte last week at the Royal College of Music, London. 

...

So I would advise you to practice so you can start your recording quickly in the dark.

Thank you for sharing your experience. Yes, I had planned to practice a little, at home. About recording levels, a friend recently told me he always records using the "high sensitivity" level, though. Maybe it depends on the mic and how big/small the theatre is.

And I´ll have a look at the Gallery

[Keith]

BTW I worked out where you are from the operas you describe. I remember about 5 years ago singing in the chorus for some performances of Aida in Ravenna (nice little opera house) and Forli (sports stadium?). Fond memories of the area. I don't get to do much of that any more.

Still thinking about how to clean up the recording I have and how to improve future recordings.

Keith

[A440]

Whether you use low or high sensitivity really depends on the mic.

With the BMC-2's that I use, high is way too sensitive--it picks up just about everything including the rustle of clothing. Low will give you a quieter recording (if you use the same manual volume) but it will also help tune out some of the inevitable background noise at a classical concert. Try both sensitivity settings at home with whatever mic you are using and see what works best for you.

And Keith, your best bet is to get a better mic or pair of mics. That's a directional mic with a frequency response of 50-16,000 Hz, and since it's marketed for "business or conference" it may well be biased toward picking up speaking voices. You will get more bottom and a more open-sounding upper register with a 20-20,000 Hz mic.

[Keith]

And Keith, your best bet is to get a better mic or pair of mics. That's a directional mic with a frequency response of 50-16,000 Hz, and since it's marketed for "business or conference" it may well be biased toward picking up speaking voices. You will get more bottom and a more open-sounding upper register with a 20-20,000 Hz mic.

Yeah I know. I've been reading the various threads about mics and pondering where to go. Thanks though.

[burnsie17]

I realize this topic has not been replied to for a while but i have questions hoping that someone will reply .

There is talk in this thread about recording and sensitivity levels on your MD unit but i was wondering what the preference would be as to a high or low sensitivity mic. I recently bought a SP PSM 5 from Sound Pros(which is, coincidentally, the same as the PSM 6 w/o the altoids box, and yes go ahead and make fun, i thought it was a good idea at the time) but i bought a high sensitivity model bc i figured i could just turn the mic sens to low on the unit if i am recording louder music and it would be ok. Unfortunately i have not had time to play with the mic and settings and i have to send it back bc there is a very audible buzz in the left mic. However, i was wondering if this was a good idea or not in everyone's opinion.

Thanx everyone ahead of time.

ps. IMO you might be able to get away w/ rec the second act of an opera w/ PCM bc usu(not always) it is 2 hours, a break and then another hour but i would not do so for the first act, but you probably already realize that .

[A440]

I like the idea of a high-sensitivity mic because if you do want to try recording something really quiet then you have the option. You can always switch to low-sens on the recorder and turn down the volume if need be.

If you're recording opera, high-sensitivity mics and the low-sensitivity setting should probably be ideal going directly into mic-in, as long as you leave plenty of headroom for the shrieky parts.

[greenmachine]

I've been recording quiet sounds such as acoustic instruments from a distance, animal and other ambient noises with a rather low sensitivity mic and low sensitivity setting without any problems. Never felt the need to switch to high sens. as it would only increase the noisefloor along with the signal and reduce headroom unnecessarily. Many microphones are way too sensitive IMO, which makes them somewhat unsuitable for loud music. Low sensitively versions are often way more versatile.

[pasabaporaqui]

I asked a friend who already has recorded several operas, and he said he uses the hi sensitivity settings. I've heard a sample of his "work" and feel the results are good but maybe he's wrong and should be using the low sensitivity mode. I could hear some unwanted noises (at the beggining of the recording, maybe his clothes while clipping the mic?) and the clapping after some good aria was unbearable. But he was seated quite far from the stage, and the performance's sound was good (but I would have liked it a little bit louder). Anyway, I asked him if he uses the low sensitivity mode in other occasions (like when having better seats!) and he said he always uses the high sensitivity mode. What about this? Maybe it just depends on the mic?

Ah! I almost forgot to tell that I've just recieved my own RH910. So I'll make some home recording to try it.

This is for Keith:

So you think I'm italian, eh? Well, I'm not. Just going there, 3 days If you want a clue, try Sonnambula with Juan Diego Florez last May.

But you sung in Italy! Wonderfull... Aida in Ravena... I feel envy.

But maybe recording from the stage itself isn't the same as recording from the seats (And excuse my lack of vocabulary. I hope you know what I mean).

Edited July 20, 2005 by pasabaporaqui

[greenmachine]

Yes, it strongly depends on the mic if high or low sens. works best, although there's propably not much difference if you're using low sens. with a high level setting or hi sens. with low levels, if at all.

I'd like to hear your opinion about this recent recording of mine. I'm a noob in this genre.

[Keith]

If you want a clue, try Sonnambula with Juan Diego Florez last May.

But maybe recording from the stage itself isn't the same as recording from the seats.

←

Spain? My apologies. I've sung in Barcelona and Madrid but not opera.

However, I don't record from the stage when I'm singing - that would give a very biased sound. I only record when I'm listening in the audience.

Keith

[pasabaporaqui]

I will have a look at it, Greenmachine, and thank you for sharing. But I'm not an expert, I just happen to like opera.

And Keith, now you must tell me what was that you sung in Spain!

P.D. Just had a look at the Sonic Stage "thing". I'm already getting nervous about making some horrible mistake and erasing my recordings.

I read the MD manual last night, and I think I understood about half of it. And it was in spanish.

Edited July 21, 2005 by pasabaporaqui

[A440]

Just had a look at the Sonic Stage "thing". I'm already getting nervous about making some horrible mistake and erasing my recordings.

←

Pasa--

No preocupe Ud. demasiado.

When you upload a recording, SonicStage titles it with the date and time. So you can see what you have already uploaded, since you have to open SonicStage and look at the titles (which are usually "untitled" with a live recording) before trying to transfer. If you see 2005-21-07 23:38 or something like that, then you have already uploaded the track.

[pasabaporaqui]

Thank you for the clue, A440.

But it's precisely because this "pasa" that I'm worried! These performances I'm going to record will be once-in-a-lifetime opportunities. Maybe two if I'm very lucky

[Keith]

You could always use Dex's Options For Paranoid Users - see here - before you upload via usb. As I understand it, the Total Recorder method gives as good a digital copy as uploading via usb with no risk of losing the recording. It's just slower.

And Keith, now you must tell me what was that you sung in Spain!

Not opera. It was Yehudi Menuhin's 80th birthday tour and he conducted Beethoven's Choral Symphony in several cities around Europe. I was singing in the chorus but I can't remember who the soloists were.

Keith

[pasabaporaqui]

Well, I made my first recording yesterday. I used the Sonic Stage and stored it as .Wav and then cut it using Nero. Everything OK

I used the "low sensitivity" setting for the mic, and also another setting -I think it was something like "for loud music" available in the menu- but I don't have the MD at hand to have a look at it. Well, it was me studying flute, so nothing of interest to show in here. It was just my first experiment.

The Sonic Stage worked fine. I thought I might have troubles understanding it but it was quite simple.

Just a couple of questions more about recording an opera:

Is it a good idea to make automatic tracks (let's say, each 10 mins) or I'd better leave it? I've read that pushing the "rec" button while recording will produce a new track, but I suppose that isn't possible if I use the "hold" button to avoid stopping the recording without knowing. "Paranoid" should be my nick! Perhaps it's too difficult to stop the recording without noticing (I'm thinking about pressing some button while the MD is inside my purse) and there's no need to use the "hold" button at all!

And Keith, thank your answering. How lucky you are to be able to hear so many good things (orchestras, singers) and be a part of all that!

(And some bad too... )

Edited July 22, 2005 by pasabaporaqui

[greenmachine]

The 'Standard' or 'Loudmusic' setting will affect the way the AGC works. If you want to use AGC, use the loudmusic setting, if you use manual levels, the setting has no effect, but you'll need to set the levels manually. You'll get better, dynamically uncompressed results with manual levels, but it needs some practice to set them correctly.

Read this live recording usage FAQ:

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=9045