MiniDisc Recorders vs Voice Recorders

[saxophernalia]

Hello All!

Please help me end my confusion! I know this is probably going to sound like a dumb question to most, but I really need to figure this out...

I have been doing a lot of research on the Sony Hi-MD Mini Disc Walkmans. My primary use for this item would be to record myself playing my saxophone in order to create files to burn on a CD or to the harddrive of my computer.

It seems like using Mini Discs is outdated, or it just seems that there would be some more advanced technology that would have surpassed using these Mini Discs. Can you please tell me why the Mini Discs are necessary to record musical performances?

As a result of this question, I was looking into the Sony Voice Recorders that appear to be used mainly for recording the spoken voice. However, I read that there is a microphone jack on these voice recorders, so is it possible to record musical performances on these devices?

I guess I am wondering WHY Mini Discs are still used for these recorders. What is the benefit of using these discs and how come there are not recorders that just use a memory card as opposed to mini discs (like a digital camera would). Are Mini Discs still the best technology for this purpose?

Thanks!

[greenmachine]

With a good (stereo) microphone and careful placement, MD recorder's sound quality surpasses voice recorders and such by far. Why we still use rotating discs? Flash recorders with excellent recording quality and relative ease of use / reliability in an affordable price range have yet to be produced.

[A440]

Voice recorders really aren't made for music, or even for high-quality voice recording. They're for dictating memos, and they do an excellent job for that.

But music is a much more complex signal than spoken word. For high fidelity, you need the larger capacity and uncompressed sound (PCM) or musically oriented compressed sound (Hi-SP) that you can get on minidisc--or, if you want to go a more expensive route with a worse microphone preamp, flash recorders like the M-Audio Microtrack.

I don't know what kind of saxophone you play, but the range of a B-flat tenor sax is 110-630 Hz (and higher if you're overblowing like Pharoah Sanders). There are also overtones in every note you play--multiples of the basic frequencies, way up there--that define the timbre of your sound.

Sony Digital Voice Recorders--even the $300 ones!--don't provide specs for frequency response. I can guarantee, however, that a 16MB memory stick is not going to hold as much sonic information as a 1GB Hi-MD.

Here are the frequency response specs for the Olympus top-of-the-line DS-330 voice recorder:

Overall Frequency Response SP mode: 300 to 5,000 Hz.

LP mode: 300 to 3,000 Hz.

(Forget the lower octave of your saxophone.)

Here are the frequency response specs for minidisc and, incidentally, most people's ears:

20-20,000 Hz.

It makes a difference.

Edited December 29, 2005 by A440

[Skradgee]

You could use an M-Audio MicroTrack or some other kind of similar flash device like A440 said, but a solution like that including microphones and whatnot would have you spending around $500 (at least, I suppose). That could be overkill for what you want record. A decent Hi-MD minidisc setup can cost about half of that, and you'd most likely get all the quality that you need for less money.

[A440]

The comparison in this thread

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=13562

pretty much killed any gadget lust I had for the M-Audio MicroTrack. Listen to how much noise the mic preamp adds! Maybe the next generation MicroTrack (and price drops for compact flash cards) will finally displace MD, but it seems like you have to go with a preamp or an outboard analog-digital converter to get the full potential out of this one. And that's more money and another box to carry around.

[pburress]

I have an iRiver IFP-890 256mb flash mp3 player. It has a line-in jack and will record direct to mp3 at variable quality settings, up to 44mhz/320kbps. You can change the line-in jack to "mic input" which activates a preamp so you can plug a mic directly in. I recorded my (bluegrass) band practice with my stereo condenser mic (no battery box) and I am very impressed with the results! The quality is very comparable to minidisc... at least my ears can't tell a difference, though I am pretty sure the minidisc is slightly better quality if you review the specs.

I have used my MZ-R700 minidisc unit for several years, recording band practices with the mic and gigs off the sound board, until it recently broke. I got the iRiver from e-bay for $51.00 shipped. I hate to say it, but for my purposes, I am not planning on buying another minidisc anytime soon.

One warning on the iRiver: if you update the firmware, for some crazy reason you will be limited to 96kbps bitrate on line-in or mic recordings! Needless to say I am not planning on doing this firmware "upgrade"! The upgrade would allow me use it as a generic usb storage device, but I don't care about that.

Phil

Wichita, KS

[A440]

Glad it works for you--sounds like it's a good solution. Certainly more convenient than realtime recording out of the MZ-R700 headphone jack.

For myself, I'd still prefer Hi-MD if only for the possibility of PCM. (Though 320 kbps mp3 is probably better than Hi-SP.)

Also, you have to keep uploading the recordings to the PC to have room on the unit.

One 80-min. MD holds more than 256MB.

I had read that the Iriver recorders sometimes have gaps in recording as they write. Seems you don't have that problem, so that's good.

It would be essential to know if new IFP-890s have the "upgrade" already installed. That would make it useless for music.

[tekdroid]

I have an iRiver IFP-890 256mb flash mp3 player. It has a line-in jack and will record direct to mp3 at variable quality settings, up to 44mhz/320kbps. You can change the line-in jack to "mic input" which activates a preamp so you can plug a mic directly in. I recorded my (bluegrass) band practice with my stereo condenser mic (no battery box) and I am very impressed with the results! The quality is very comparable to minidisc... at least my ears can't tell a difference, though I am pretty sure the minidisc is slightly better quality if you review the specs.

I have used my MZ-R700 minidisc unit for several years, recording band practices with the mic and gigs off the sound board, until it recently broke. I got the iRiver from e-bay for $51.00 shipped. I hate to say it, but for my purposes, I am not planning on buying another minidisc anytime soon.

One warning on the iRiver: if you update the firmware, for some crazy reason you will be limited to 96kbps bitrate on line-in or mic recordings! Needless to say I am not planning on doing this firmware "upgrade"! The upgrade would allow me use it as a generic usb storage device, but I don't care about that.

Phil

Wichita, KS

Some reviewage of your unit:

http://www.mobilityguru.com/2004/08/26/mp3_players/

http://reviews.cnet.com/iRiver_iFP_890_256...30889082-2.html

Can't be recognised as a drive under Windows without a driver.

Proprietary cable.

Proprietary software.

I thought Sony were bad

http://www.iriveramerica.com/prod/ultra/800/ifp_890.aspx

Headphone output is more than adequate, tho 18mW!

AA battery is also something I'd like to see more of in flash players, so that's definitely a plus.

Linear PCM recording is another thing I can't do without that Hi-MD gives.

Promising, but not quite there for my uses.

Edited December 29, 2005 by tekdroid

[e1ghtyf1ve]

Some reviewage of your unit:

http://www.mobilityguru.com/2004/08/26/mp3_players/

http://reviews.cnet.com/iRiver_iFP_890_256...30889082-2.html

Can't be recognised as a drive under Windows without a driver.

Proprietary cable.

Proprietary software.

I thought Sony were bad

http://www.iriveramerica.com/prod/ultra/800/ifp_890.aspx

Headphone output is more than adequate, tho 18mW!

AA battery is also something I'd like to see more of in flash players, so that's definitely a plus.

Linear PCM recording is another thing I can't do without that Hi-MD gives.

Promising, but not quite there for my uses.

I have both the iFP-899 and iFP-795. Both excellent mp3 player/recorders.

However:

When recording either with line-in or stereo mic-in, regardless of bit-rate a high frequency hashing noise is introduced. It seems that the little ARM CPU is not quite strong enough to encode. Decoding is fine and very clean. The reason that the UMS firmware limits encoding bitrates is simply due to the fact that the CPU is bogged down by the FAT file system. 96kbps MP3 is the maximum safe rate. Much above that, you get dropouts and stutters. The horsepower is just not there. I've extensively tested this. It's good enough for iPod playback and podcasting, though!

HiMD is by comparison a clean, rugged recording format, and by the dire looks of the industry, the best bang for the buck for some time to come.

Cheers

Edit: The cable is not proprietary at all: I use it for my little HiMD recorders as well. Standard mini-usb. Also, if you think these 2004 iRivers are bad, you should see the 2005 models, including Samsung and Creative. Can't use them without Windows XP and Media Player 10!! Makes HiMD look like an open format. Sony really isn't that bad by comparison.

Edited December 30, 2005 by e1ghtyf1ve

[pburress]

I have both the iFP-899 and iFP-795. Both excellent mp3 player/recorders.

However:

When recording either with line-in or stereo mic-in, regardless of bit-rate a high frequency hashing noise is introduced. It seems that the little ARM CPU is not quite strong enough to encode. Decoding is fine and very clean. The reason that the UMS firmware limits encoding bitrates is simply due to the fact that the CPU is bogged down by the FAT file system. 96kbps MP3 is the maximum safe rate. Much above that, you get dropouts and stutters. The horsepower is just not there. I've extensively tested this. It's good enough for iPod playback and podcasting, though!

HiMD is by comparison a clean, rugged recording format, and by the dire looks of the industry, the best bang for the buck for some time to come.

Cheers

Edit: The cable is not proprietary at all: I use it for my little HiMD recorders as well. Standard mini-usb. Also, if you think these 2004 iRivers are bad, you should see the 2005 models, including Samsung and Creative. Can't use them without Windows XP and Media Player 10!! Makes HiMD look like an open format. Sony really isn't that bad by comparison.

I haven't experienced any noise at all with my IFP-890 recordings. In fact I'm surprised at the quality. I picked up some titanium-diaphram headphones today and I still think it sounds great in my rough comparison to minidisc recordings. Maybe a little more high-end hiss but I'm not even sure about that.

E1ghtyf1ve, It sounds like you know what you're talking about and I'd be interested in sending you a short clip of one of these recordings. Send me an email at (pburress at yahoodotcom)and I will reply with a clip. Maybe I'm missing something and would like your feedback. The recording is of an acoustic band plaing a slow song in a living room.

Edited December 30, 2005 by pburress

[ZosoIV]

I also have an iRiver and will agree that it makes respectable, artifact-free encodings at the 320kbps/44.1kHz setting. Be aware, however, that the MP3 codec on iRiver's DSP (Xing's, I think) exhibits a hard lowpass at 16kHz, even at 320kbps (verified by spectrum analysis). While most people can't reliably detect a 16kHz lowpass with regular music, it's at least something to think about. Hi-MD should capture all 22kHz of allowable bandwidth when using Hi-SP or PCM (provided your mic’s are of good quality).

Hi-MD will also allow for higher-quality editing when using 16-bit LPCM, or at least without as much loss as a decoded 320kbps MP3.

Edited December 30, 2005 by ZosoIV

[tekdroid]

I have both the iFP-899 and iFP-795. Both excellent mp3 player/recorders.

However:

When recording either with line-in or stereo mic-in, regardless of bit-rate a high frequency hashing noise is introduced. It seems that the little ARM CPU is not quite strong enough to encode. Decoding is fine and very clean. The reason that the UMS firmware limits encoding bitrates is simply due to the fact that the CPU is bogged down by the FAT file system. 96kbps MP3 is the maximum safe rate. Much above that, you get dropouts and stutters. The horsepower is just not there. I've extensively tested this. It's good enough for iPod playback and podcasting, though!

HiMD is by comparison a clean, rugged recording format, and by the dire looks of the industry, the best bang for the buck for some time to come.

Cheers

Edit: The cable is not proprietary at all: I use it for my little HiMD recorders as well. Standard mini-usb. Also, if you think these 2004 iRivers are bad, you should see the 2005 models, including Samsung and Creative. Can't use them without Windows XP and Media Player 10!! Makes HiMD look like an open format. Sony really isn't that bad by comparison.

excellent info, thank you.

It seems I mis-read the comment about the cable in the cnet review. What I'd do for a cheap flash recorder with 1GB+, linear pcm and drag n drop, with excellent recording characteristics. They would sell like mad to people hitting these forums.

[mcrelly]

Here are the frequency response specs for the Olympus top-of-the-line DS-330 voice recorder:

Overall Frequency Response SP mode: 300 to 5,000 Hz.

LP mode: 300 to 3,000 Hz.

(Forget the lower octave of your saxophone.)

Here are the frequency response specs for minidisc and, incidentally, most people's ears:

20-20,000 Hz.

It makes a difference.

I bought an olympus WS-320m, NOT the DS-330. the ws-320m has a frequency response of 100-15,000. while not perfect for full range recording I was still hoping for something I can quickly record band practice and transfer to computer if I need. 35hours of the highest quality setting, built in stereo mics (good up to about 100 dbc) internal speaker, mic input.