Transferring SP disks onto a Hi-MD disk

[chorismos]

I would like to compile older SP disk content onto some Hi-MD disks so that I can take more music with me on the go.

I'm using SS 3.4 with my MZ-NH1. I know that SP runs at 292 kbps, Hi-SP at 256 and A3+ optimal at 356. Music quality is really important for me so I don't want to lose SP standard of reproduction if possible (I usually burn from CDs via SS using A3+ 365).

Could someone please recommend the best format to use for burning the Hi-MD disks from the SP disks? If this isn't a lossless process, what's the impact on quality of reproduction from the Hi-MD disks? How do you 'minimise' the impact?

Thanks for your help and if this repeats other thread contents it would be great if you could direct me to them (couldn't see it in a topic).

[1kyle]

RH1 will upload SP discs. If you can wait till then get an RH1 - then problem solved.

Other than that you could play the SP disc in a deck with Optical out and copy to the MD via optical IN. Add track info afterwards using SB (it can edit tracks).

You might also find using Line Out and analog recording you won't lose too much just copying (again in real time) to the new Hi-MD unit. If your original SP disc is top quality the small loss in using analog recording and conversion to ATRAC3 + @ 256 will hardly be noticeable - especially for portable music.

Cheers

-K

[chorismos]

So I wouldn't be able to upload older format recordings (SP, LP2, LP4) with my NH1, but RH1 can upload non Hi-MD audio (eg SP material) via USB. Presumably, that means on a RH1 you can convert the SP via SS 3.4 to a Hi-MD format eg Hi-SP, without any loss of quality except for the lower bitrate @ 256?

Oooh, more temptation to buy an RH1 (although I'm very attached to the NH1 it will be an add-on rather than replacement probably). I have heaps of SP discs and am a sucker for the (eighties?) compilation 'theme disk' approach but this could just wait a bit.

I don't have an MD deck unfortunately, and the analogue upload method seems to be a bit of a workaround with the real-time copying requirement.

Incidentally, I reckon there's an appreciable enough difference between Hi-SP @256 and A3+ @ 352 through Bose QC2's to make it worthwhile using SS 3.4 over Simple Burner, but Hi-SP is fine for me overall.

Thanks for your advice about this.

[The Low Volta]

the RH1 will upload old SP/LP2/LP4 recordings... but not old downloads (through USB from PC-> NetMD)

[greenmachine]

If i'm informed correctly, the RH1 will upload SP recordings, but you can only save them in pcm (decompressed, waste of space) and/or transcode to a different codec since there's no Atrac/SP codec for the PC (yet). LP2/4 can be saved without conversion. Although the conversion is lossy, SP to A3+@352/256kbps propably won't sound too bad though.

Edited April 11, 2006 by greenmachine

[MDX-400]

...since there's no Atrac/SP codec for the PC (yet).

There never will be. Since the RH1 dosn't support it, the original intent to never allow ATRAC1 out of it's "lock and key" status remains and we know for sure Sony will never change their tune on that.

But I agree completely... Uploading to PCM is not that bad really. Given, it is a waste, but it is at least the SP MD track as you would hear it played back, only available as a file on your PC. Undoubtedly people will be using ATRAC3plus 256k or 352k to transcode to and I think you'll even be able to do that on-the-fly while uploading as well. There's also ATRAC Advanced Lossless which would probably take up around half the space of PCM, so that's also an option too (though not one supported by any of the portables, unfortunately).

[MDX-400]

So I wouldn't be able to upload older format recordings (SP, LP2, LP4) with my NH1, but RH1 can upload non Hi-MD audio (eg SP material) via USB. Presumably, that means on a RH1 you can convert the SP via SS 3.4 to a Hi-MD format eg Hi-SP, without any loss of quality except for the lower bitrate @ 256?

No there is the transcoding loss as well. The SP recording is in ATRAC, what you end up with is going to be ATRAC3plus, going by that example. The loss will be small though, being only one [more] generation of loss from the original SP recoring (more if the SP recording was transcoded from another lossy format like MP3).

The RH1 will do for you what you can already do with any MD unit, only faster than realtime, via a digital connection and through much easier means. What happens with the RH1 is the unit "plays back" the ATRAC content faster than realtime and it goes via (highspeed) PCM to the PC where you can either keep it as PCM (WAV) or transcode it to ATRAC3plus or whatever. (You can apparenlty transcode to ATRAC3plus 256k aka Hi-SP on the fly though.)

ATRAC3 (i.e. MDLP/LP2/LP4) tracks, OTOH, will just upload in their native ATRAC3 format (132k or 66k).

Also ATRAC3plus is not lossless at all, in any bitrate. ATRAC Advanced Lossless, however is. If you keep the SP uploads as PCM you should be able to convert that to ATRAC AL which will be about 50% the space of PCM. But note ATRAC AL isn't compatible with any player as of yet (unless the RH1 supports it???).

Incidentally, I reckon there's an appreciable enough difference between Hi-SP @256 and A3+ @ 352 through Bose QC2's to make it worthwhile using SS 3.4 over Simple Burner, but Hi-SP is fine for me overall.

Thanks for your advice about this.

Really eh? I've been wondering about this myself. If it makes a difference on Bose equipment surely it must make some difference on decent equipment too eh? The thing is 256kbps saves nearly 30% the disk space that 352kbps takes up and undoubtedly also increases battery performance.

[1kyle]

If i'm informed correctly, the RH1 will upload SP recordings, but you can only save them in pcm (decompressed, waste of space) and/or transcode to a different codec since there's no Atrac/SP codec for the PC (yet). LP2/4 can be saved without conversion. Although the conversion is lossy, SP to A3+@352/256kbps propably won't sound too bad though.

No prob --save to PCM and then to save space import the PCM into your library as ATRAC3+ Lossless. OK an extra bit of workflow but it saves space. You can then delete the WAV file. If you need it again ATRAC£ Lossless will save LOSSLESSLY to WAV.

There's been a bit of talk on this forum about the uselessness of ATRAC3 lossless. I agree no devices yet play this directly but for storing on a computer it's fine if you are using SONY (ATRAC compatable) gear. Since it can ALWAYS be converted LOSSLESSLY to WAV you can always (albeit in 2 steps) convert it to ANY format you choose.

ATRAC3 Lossless can be played directly by SS and if you transfer to Hi-SP ATRAC3 @ 352 you'll have very MINIMAL transcoding and loss.

BTW ATRAC3 @ 352 WILL play on any HI-MD unit even though previous versions of SS didn't have these bit rates.

Cheers

-K

[chorismos]

Reading these helpful posts, if you leave out the PCM/decompressed option as being space-hungry and the MD deck/analogue option as being equipment specific, there seem to be a couple of options offered by the RH1:

1. To Minimise transcoding and loss:

- Upload SP recordings via RH1 and save as PCM

- Import to SS as ATRAC AL (50% space of PCM)

- Delete the WAV file (optional)

- Transfer ATRAC AL to Hi-SP A3 @ 352

Advantage: very minimal transcoding and loss

Disadvantage: can't fit so much on a 1Gb disc.

2. To Copy on the fly (if available)

- Upload SP recordings via RH1 and transcode to Hi-SP (A3+ 256k) on the fly.

Disadvantage: slight bit rate quality loss from 292k to 256k and transcoding loss (amount depending on what SP recording was transcoded from)

Advantage: on the fly transcoding and fits heaps more on a 1Gb disc.

There seem to be lots of things to weigh-up between size vs quality vs hassle-factor vs lossy-ness.

I think the on-the-fly option would be the one for me because it would be the easiest! I transcoded most of my SP format discs from CD (so relatively small loss from original). I find 6-7 CDs to a 1Gb disc (in Hi-SP) is a good combo length (I get about 5 per 1Gb disc using A3+ @ 352).

Would miss the A3+ 352 sound though...once you're spoilt...