SS 3.4 MP3 encoder vs other MP3 encoders

[Sony_Fan]

Obviously with SS 3.4, you can rip music in MP3 format, but I was wondering whether or not this encoder is the same as other MP3 encoders in terms of sound quality. I guess my concern is that Sony may fiddle with the MP3 encoder to make ATRAC sound superior.

[atrain]

i dont think they fiddle with the encoder as you say although i don;t think it's the best encoder out there.

[Sony_Fan]

i dont think they fiddle with the encoder as you say although i don;t think it's the best encoder out there.

Which ones do you recommend? If you have links to downloads that would be great.

[pata2001]

Currently, the best MP3 encoder is Lame.

http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=LAME

Follow the recommended download and settings provided in the wiki above. I use --preset fast standard (or -V 2 --vbr-new) for most of my current MP3s.

Edited May 6, 2006 by pata2001

[dex Otaku]

So far as I knew, the encoder that SS uses by default is by FhG [the patent holders for MP3]. SS doesn't muck with it.

Last I knew it is widely regarded as the best CBR encoder [yes, better than lame; lame is widely regarded as the best VBR encoder].

In any case, chances are that whatever you install on your system as a directshow/ACM encoder for MP3 will be what's used. For CBR encoding, the differences will be very minimal [if you can hear them with high bitrate encoding, I'd be very surprised] between FhG, lame, mp3lib, libmad, [both included/used by FFDshow] et al.

Basically: the default has nothing wrong with it. The only time I'd worry about what the encoder is doing to your music is if you're using any form of the Xing codec [which, oddly, is what comes with all of Sony's professional software such as Sound Forge, Vegas, and Acid].

[atrain]

i didn't even know xing still existed. i remember when games on floppy used to install the xing codec as part of the sound.

[Sony_Fan]

So far as I knew, the encoder that SS uses by default is by FhG [the patent holders for MP3]. SS doesn't muck with it.

Last I knew it is widely regarded as the best CBR encoder [yes, better than lame; lame is widely regarded as the best VBR encoder].

In any case, chances are that whatever you install on your system as a directshow/ACM encoder for MP3 will be what's used. For CBR encoding, the differences will be very minimal [if you can hear them with high bitrate encoding, I'd be very surprised] between FhG, lame, mp3lib, libmad, [both included/used by FFDshow] et al.

Basically: the default has nothing wrong with it. The only time I'd worry about what the encoder is doing to your music is if you're using any form of the Xing codec [which, oddly, is what comes with all of Sony's professional software such as Sound Forge, Vegas, and Acid].

ARe you saying that the MP3 encoder is the best there is? I only have 2 MP3 encoders, the one with Windows media player and the SS 3.4. Which one should I use for high-bit rates (256, 320)

[dex Otaku]

ARe you saying that the MP3 encoder is the best there is? I only have 2 MP3 encoders, the one with Windows media player and the SS 3.4. Which one should I use for high-bit rates (256, 320)

If I'm not totally mistaken, both use the same codec, so it should make no difference. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Sony_Fan]

If I'm not totally mistaken, both use the same codec, so it should make no difference. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, the MP3 encoder in Windows Media Player is called InterVideo MP3. I don't know what the SS 3.4 encoder is called. I conducted a tiny experiment where I encoded a song @ 320kbps with the MP3 encoder in SS 3.4 and InterVideo MP3. After analysing them with MP3Gain, the Intervideo encoded track was .1 decibels louder. Does that mean anything? I don't know. But I'm assuming that at high bit-rates their really should be no difference in sound quality between encoders. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[dex Otaku]

Well, the MP3 encoder in Windows Media Player is called InterVideo MP3.

The encoder your machine is set up to use through WiMP is InterVideo's .. I thought a version of the FhG codec actually came in the WiMP codecs pack, though. I guess I'm wrong on that - though I'm surprised the InterVideo codec is what's there. That doesn't seem like a likely default to me. Again, I could be wrong - I don't pay attention to what codecs come with certain pieces of software [like SS - I install FFDshow and force everything to use it; and WiMP - I have opened WiMP perhaps 10 times in the past 3 years, each time to play a streaming WMV that VLC didn't like .. WiMP is the antithesis of usable software, IMO - it makes SS look sensible and efficient, not to mention resource-friendly].

The last time I saw a good comparison of MP3 encoders was several [~5] years ago .. have not seen any such comprehensive comparisons done since.

I'm not investing the time in it, myself.

Still, I'd seriously doubt there'd be any perceivable difference between the encoders. You could always try encoding a couple or three tracks of music that you're -really, really- familiar with using both codecs and seeing if you can detect anything with an ABX or something.

[Sony_Fan]

The encoder your machine is set up to use through WiMP is InterVideo's .. I thought a version of the FhG codec actually came in the WiMP codecs pack, though. I guess I'm wrong on that - though I'm surprised the InterVideo codec is what's there. That doesn't seem like a likely default to me. Again, I could be wrong - I don't pay attention to what codecs come with certain pieces of software [like SS - I install FFDshow and force everything to use it; and WiMP - I have opened WiMP perhaps 10 times in the past 3 years, each time to play a streaming WMV that VLC didn't like .. WiMP is the antithesis of usable software, IMO - it makes SS look sensible and efficient, not to mention resource-friendly].

The last time I saw a good comparison of MP3 encoders was several [~5] years ago .. have not seen any such comprehensive comparisons done since.

I'm not investing the time in it, myself.

Still, I'd seriously doubt there'd be any perceivable difference between the encoders. You could always try encoding a couple or three tracks of music that you're -really, really- familiar with using both codecs and seeing if you can detect anything with an ABX or something.

Actually, WMP didn't have an MP3 encoder so I had to install a codec seperately

(it was a free version I got from LimeWire). If the MP3 encoder in SS 3.4 is as good as anything else, then I would like to use that one because the CDDB in SS seems to find titles for some of my rare CDs that I own.

[dex Otaku]

Actually, WMP didn't have an MP3 encoder so I had to install a codec seperately

aha.

End point being: whatever directshow/ACM encoder you have installed is what most things will use. Goodgood.

[Avrin]

SonicStage seems to use its own MP3 encoder, located at C:\Program Files\Common Files\Sony Shared\OpenMG\MP3Enc.dll. This library is not dependent on WMP or Windows codecs. Complete removal of all Windows ACM MP3 codecs does not affect the MP3 encoding functionality of SS in any way.

[Sony_Fan]

SonicStage seems to use its own MP3 encoder, located at C:\Program Files\Common Files\Sony Shared\OpenMG\MP3Enc.dll. This library is not dependent on WMP or Windows codecs. Complete removal of all Windows ACM MP3 codecs does not affect the MP3 encoding functionality of SS in any way.

I agree. But if the encoder files are placed in "shared" folder, it's possible that other applications may use them.

[Avrin]

But if the encoder files are placed in "shared" folder, it's possible that other applications may use them.

This folder is shared for Sony OpenMG applications only. Currently only SonicStage, Connect Player and MD Simple Burner are in that class, and only the first of those works with MP3s.

Other Sony appications (SoundForge, etc.) have their own plugins for working with MP3 and other file formats (including ATRAC). AFAIK Sony does not actually like to "share" plugins between its applications. Even the new ATRAC plugin has to be installed separately for each of those.

[Avrin]

Well, I was wrong. Removing the C:\Program Files\Common Files\Sony Shared\OpenMG\MP3Enc.dll library also does not seem to affect the MP3 encoding functionality of SS.

Turns out, the actual file used is the C:\Program Files\Sony\SonicStage\SsEncMp3.dll library. Removing it leads to errors when trying to encode into MP3.

Edited May 13, 2006 by Avrin

[Sony_Fan]

Well, I was wrong. Removing the C:\Program Files\Common Files\Sony Shared\OpenMG\MP3Enc.dll library also does not seem to affect the MP3 encoding functionality of SS.

Turns out, the actual file used is the C:\Program Files\Sony\SonicStage\SsEncMp3.dll library. Removing it leads to errors when trying to encode into MP3.

Well, then it's obvious that WMP and SS are using different MP3 encoders. But my question now is, which one is better. Does it really matter if I'm encoding at 320kbps?

[dex Otaku]

Thanks for the research/testing, Avrin.

[Avrin]

Well, then it's obvious that WMP and SS are using different MP3 encoders. But my question now is, which one is better. Does it really matter if I'm encoding at 320kbps?

Seems it does. I don't have a WMP encoder, so I compared the quality of the SS MP3 encoder with that of command-line LAME.EXE. A jazz audio track (Paul Desmond's "Take Ten") was encoded into MP3 320 kbit/s Stereo (not Joint Stereo) using SonicStage 3.4 (with "High" quality) and LAME.EXE version 3.96.1 (with the -q 0 command switch, which provides the best possible quality, but the encoding process consumes a lot of time). Both files sounded really good when played on my Hi-Fi stereo.

Then I used Adobe Audition 1.0 to perform frequency analysis (left channel only). Well, the results are quite different for those two encoders (see attachments):

1. LAME seems to follow the original spectrum a little bit closer up until 18 kHz, where the MP3 spectrum starts falling below (more significantly at 19 kHz). At about 20 kHz it has a frequency cut-off (nothing is encoded above this frequency). The cut-off frequency may actually be disabled using additional command-line parameters (I haven't tested it yet).

2. SS does not follow the original spectrum that closely, though deviations are really small. It does not have a cut-off frequency, but the MP3 spectrum starts falling steadily at about 18 kHz.

So the main difference is the absence of the cut-off frequency in the SS MP3 encoder at 320 kbit/s. This may not seem a serious issue, but IMHO it may lead to more artifacts at higher frequencies in some rare cases. At lower bitrates this encoder does have cut-off frequencies, though IMHO those are set a bit too high (20.5 kHz for 192 kbit/s, for example).

Edited May 14, 2006 by Avrin

[greenmachine]

Disabling joint stereo won't improve quality.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....%2Bjoint+stereo

[Avrin]

Right! But since SS does not use Joint Stereo at 320 kbit/s, I also switched it off in LAME.