MZ-RH1 - live music recording

[heathenmagic]

Hello there,

I am still awaiting my Mz-RH1, but would like advice from current users on the optimum mic recording setup. I have read numerous posts regarding other models, but with the improvements in recording and sound, I gather the setup might be different for optimum recording. My main aim is ti record live music venues and recording my own song acoustically.

Any help is much appreciated, and would benefit a lot of users I guess. Hats off to sony for releasing this one!

Cheers,

Russ

[A440]

No matter what you're using to record, a good recording is always the product of:

1) a good-sounding source

2) good mics

3) good mic placement

4) proper levels

The main difference between the RH1 and other MDs for recording seems to be that you can set Manual Volume as the default setting. This is convenient, but doesn't change anything essential about the recording quality of Hi-MD--which is, basically, as good as what you can get into it without overloading.

For live music: Mic (I like omnis)--Battery Module--Line-in at whatever level doesn't overload, using Manual Volume. As a guesstimate, try 17/20. But it will vary with your mic, with what you're recording, with the room, etc.

Edited June 28, 2006 by A440

[faulkner1953]

I agree totally with A440. I would add about input level adjustment...always set it a little on the low side. If you get the input level too hot and cause distortion, it's not a pretty thing to hear and can't be removed. And also find a recording level and leave it there! Don't fiddle with it during a performance.

Just my 2 cents, good luck with your live recordings!

[Habanero74]

Hi Guys.

Finally I’ ve bought MZ-RH1, it is wonderful,

BUT I should need some indications from You expert users:

1)VERY IMPORTANT: I’ve recorded a live concert for fist time with OPEN AMBIENT and vVERY LOUD AMPLIFICATION conditions. I’ put recording settings: REC LEVEL: AUTO-AGC; MIC SENS: HIGH. The recording results with sound level in constant saturation and distortion.

I know you experts advise to use manual level but I can’t buy a battery pack control and it is very difficult for me to regulate the level in pause and with no experience in live recording.

SO COULD YOU INDICATE ME A REC LEVEL TO SET UP IN ORDER TO AVOID SURE SATURATION? (I know it depends on ambient conditions but You spoke about a level you generally set to be confidentially sure to have an acceptable recording for dynamic range)

2)In case of live recording of musicians performing in close ambient but without amplification (live groups with singing, tambours, maracas…) can I be sure to have a good recording with no saturation with REC LEVEL: AUTO-AGC; MIC SENS: HIGH or have I to set a manual level of recording that You can suggest???

3)I will bring on airplane the minidisk, so to avoid damages due to condensate for powerful air conditioning do you suggest to put the recorder in a closed plastic envelope or what?

4)Do you know what one have to do to avoid damages for RX rays in the airport for the minidisk? And for the minidisc supports??

Just 11 and 12 of this week I will record two concerts I like a lot.....

MANY MANY THANKS 4 HELP,

Habanero

[greenmachine]

What kind of mic / model are you using?

For very loud sounds without battery box, set the recorder's mic sens to low and use a low manual level setting, something like 10 out of 30. Consider to get an attenuator or a battery box to avoid distortion, see the pinnned threads in the live recording subforum.

2)It depends strongly on the kind of mic you use, but you'll propably need to use the low mic sens setting here as well.

3)Not necessary, enjoy the flight and record a few airplane ambience sounds instead.

4)Leaving the unit in direct sunlight for longer periods will propably cause more damage than xray. Mine has gone througha few airport checks without any damage, so i suppose xrays won't do any harm at all.

[smkranz]

2)In case of live recording of musicians performing in close ambient but without amplification (live groups with singing, tambours, maracas…) can I be sure to have a good recording with no saturation with REC LEVEL: AUTO-AGC; MIC SENS: HIGH or have I to set a manual level of recording that You can suggest???

2) Recording live music as you describe (no amplification), will depend somewhat on the venue and your location. You should be able to get a very nice recording of this type of music without distortion, and without the need for a battery box or an attenuator. For example, if you are in a club setting or an outdoor setting where everyone is close to the musicians, set Mic Sensitivity to LOW (high is really only for very quiet sounds), and use a Manual Recording level of about 12-15 to start. See what that does to the REC Level Meters...avoid letting them "top out". If you are further away, I would still keep Mic Sensitivity to Low, and boost Rec level as necessary.

You will find what works fairly quickly...but it is best to err on the low side than too high, because if the recording becomes distorted from your Rec level being set too high, you cannot fix that later. But if the Rec level turns out a little low, you can edit the music files to boost volume and even filter out some noise.

Try to quickly find the best recording level, and keep it there.

[Habanero74]

TKS:

keep helping:

- Type of mic: Sony ECM-CS10

- I tried to record with MIC SENS=LOW but the sound was very attenuated and "it seemed to come through one bottle sluice"

WHAT ABOUT IT ???

HAbaNEro

TKS:

keep helping:

- Type of mic: Sony ECM-CS10

- I tried to record with MIC SENS=LOW but the sound was very attenuated and "it seemed to come through one bottle sluice"

WHAT ABOUT IT ???

HAbaNEro

EXCUSE ME, ADDITIONALLY:

- I'm going to record music rich of percussions, drum and basses (latin american, SALSA, tropical music)

TKS TKS

[A440]

What did you try to record with LOW mic sensitivity? The music you are trying to record is simply too loud, with too much bass, to record with high sensitivity, although that mic will not pick up the lowest bass. (Its frequency response is 100-15000 Hz).

Even if it is playing unamplified, a rumba group generates a lot of sound.

It is really essential that you learn to use Manual recording levels. REC-PAUSE, Menu, REC-SET, Manual Volume. My guess is that with AGC on rather than manual volume, what is happening is that the first LOUD sound makes the AGC drop the volume quite low, and it stays there for a while even when the music quiets down. But you still need low sensitivity. With high sensitivity, it will overload even sooner.

You should just set the level once in Manual and leave it there throughout the concert. As smkranz suggests, just choose a level like 12/30, which is probably a bit low but will prevent overloading. If it is dark where you are recording, do all the settings for Manual outside, before the concert. Leave it in Pause, and then just push Pause to start recording.

But my guess is that you are probably going to have to use an attenuator or battery module. Loud bass-heavy music is just too much for the built-in microphone preamp--which is in the circuit BEFORE the sensitivity setting or the recording levels, so once the preamp overloads, the recording is distorted. If you can't get a battery module, are you in a place with stores like Radio Shack or another place that would sell a Headphone Volume Control?

And don't worry about airplanes or X-rays. My MD has flown around quite a bit.

[Habanero74]

What did you try to record with LOW mic sensitivity? The music you are trying to record is simply too loud, with too much bass, to record with high sensitivity, although that mic will not pick up the lowest bass. (Its frequency response is 100-15000 Hz).

Even if it is playing unamplified, a rumba group generates a lot of sound.

It is really essential that you learn to use Manual recording levels. REC-PAUSE, Menu, REC-SET, Manual Volume. My guess is that with AGC on rather than manual volume, what is happening is that the first LOUD sound makes the AGC drop the volume quite low, and it stays there for a while even when the music quiets down. But you still need low sensitivity. With high sensitivity, it will overload even sooner.

You should just set the level once in Manual and leave it there throughout the concert. As smkranz suggests, just choose a level like 12/30, which is probably a bit low but will prevent overloading. If it is dark where you are recording, do all the settings for Manual outside, before the concert. Leave it in Pause, and then just push Pause to start recording.

But my guess is that you are probably going to have to use an attenuator or battery module. Loud bass-heavy music is just too much for the built-in microphone preamp--which is in the circuit BEFORE the sensitivity setting or the recording levels, so once the preamp overloads, the recording is distorted. If you can't get a battery module, are you in a place with stores like Radio Shack or another place that would sell a Headphone Volume Control?

And don't worry about airplanes or X-rays. My MD has flown around quite a bit.

I tried to record with LOW MIC SENS set just one song during the concert (SALSA in open ambient and with loud amplification) I recorded entirely in HIGH SENS set.

A440 are You telling I could solve my problem just buyng a simply volume control for headphones: intending revolving small wheel in order to control the volume to be put between recorder mic-in and microphone jack?

TKS

[Habanero74]

*)A440 are You telling I could solve my problem just buyng a simply volume control for headphones: intending revolving small wheel in order to control the volume to be put between recorder mic-in and microphone jack?

**)Yesterday I bought the remote volume control (VC-1) it is very comfortable but it introduces very heavy attenuation: do you think that with the wheel on the maximum position it introduces zero attenuation? (equivalent to no volume control introduction between md and microphone?

***)Yestarday I recorded live concert (open ambient very loud amplification) with Your advices: very better; Low mic sens and decided to set manual level to 12 with no use of the VC-1 volume control; the bars where allways around -12dB.

But is also the source to be not good: very much distortion due to the sound of the group.

So probably I will have effects of clipping.

****)Excuse me: how can I keep copy of the original completely raw audio data recorded (eventually to be post edited with calm) removing from the minidisc support?

When I transfer recorded tracks from MD to PC I've set to do a WAVE copy but have I to keep also the tracks on SonicStage database? or have I got all I need (in terms of audio data and no loss of quality) in the WAVE? and if I will want to re-transfer on a minidisc support later?

*****)Excuse me: is it wosth to record in Linear PCM or is better to do every record in Hi-SP: do one loose lot of quality or is it not possible to distinguish normally?

MANY MANY TKS to exchange experiences on MD

[A440]

**)Yesterday I bought the remote volume control (VC-1) it is very comfortable but it introduces very heavy attenuation: do you think that with the wheel on the maximum position it introduces zero

attenuation? (equivalent to no volume control introduction between md and microphone?

No. Even at maximum, the VC-1 cuts the signal somewhat. When I use an attenuator I leave the volume all the way up, at maximum. That still attenuates enough to keep the preamp from distorting.

***)Yestarday I recorded live concert (open ambient very loud amplification) with Your advices: very better; Low mic sens and decided to set manual level to 12 with no use of the VC-1 volume control; the bars where allways around -12dB.

If you can do it without the attenuator, that's best. I don't know how sensitive that mic is. It's possible that with a low sensitivity mic (that has less bass response) PLUS Low Sens on the unit that you could avoid using the attenuator. If that works for you, and you're not getting the clipping, then don't bother with the VC1. But listen to your recording: It's possible that even at the low level, you still got distortion. If not, great.

The attenuator is not a perfect solution. It provides less power to the mic, which makes it easier for the mic itself to overload in a loud situation. But usually the preamp overloads first, which is what the attenuator should prevent.

****)Excuse me: how can I keep copy of the original completely raw audio data recorded (eventually to be post edited with calm) removing from the minidisc support?

When I transfer recorded tracks from MD to PC I've set to do a WAVE copy but have I to keep also the tracks on SonicStage database? or have I got all I need?

Once you have a .wav copy you don't need any other copies. The .wav copy holds all the information in your original recording. You don't need to keep a copy on the disc or in the SonicStage database. Of course, if it is a very important recording, you might also want to make a backup copy--burn to CD, perhaps.

*****)Excuse me: is it wosth to record in Linear PCM or is better to do every record in Hi-SP: do one loose lot of quality or is it not possible to distinguish normally?

That's really up to your ears. I do a lot of my recordings in Hi-SP for convenience. Do a test recording with your stereo and see if you can hear a difference between Hi-SP and PCM.

[bobt]

Is there a possibilty that you can ask the soundman to plug in on the mixer, you lose a touch of "ambience", but end up with a cleaner recording.

Just a thought, the other suggestions are all good, but if you want mic recordings try borrowing a couple of different mics and see what happens.

Good luck,

Bob

[A440]

When you're lucky enough to get a feed from the soundboard you should connect to Line-in, not Mic-in.

[Habanero74]

Great!

A440,

Yesterday I had some time to Iisten with some more attention to my recording

(the one with MIC SENS=LOW, MANUAL LEVEL=12 in open ambient loud loud amplification).

The recorder did not go to saturation or distortion (also if the original sound source was distorting!) BUT the level of recording is very low: it has not so much basses and it is always around -12db bar on my MZ-RH1; during live recording I thought it was the ideal but it is low! (always very better than my first record which was all distorted and completely saturated!).

*) SO: DO THINK I COULD TRY NEXT RECORDING WITH [mic sens = high & manual level=I don’t know, it is to be tested on field] OR IN ANY CASE I MUST SET [mic sens = low & manual level=try to increase respect to 12] ?

ON YOUR EXPERIENCE TO NOT HAVE SATURATION MUST SET ALLWAYS mic sens=LOW ?

*) Later I will try to raise the level of the entire recording (.wav file via SW editing) and then to cut the increased noisy !?!

Moreover when You listen to minidisk connected via line-out to the stereo amplifier, You have got also the parameter of the 1 to 30 volume level of the minidisk:

*) TO WHICH OF THE 30 LEVELS DO YOU PUT MD AS REASONABLE “ABSOLUTE” REFERENCE FOR YOUR AMPLIFIER?

TKS A440 You’re always precious in Your indications.

[greenmachine]

Having the levels at around -12dB to -6dB is ideal (always leave some headroom). You can always amplify it later. The lack of bass is most propably a shortcoming of the microphone. Use the 'low sens' setting most of the time and adjust the level setting if necessary. For listening through an external amplifier, propably set your levels to a relatively high setting (~25-30).

[faulkner1953]

If you have no distortion with your recording, then you're good. -12dB is a good level, as it allows for some louder passages with out distorting. If you are recording sounds that are VERY loud, The mic itself can distort. That is why we use a battery box. It gives the mic 9v of power, rather than 1.5v. That gives the mic more headroom before distorting.

[Habanero74]

Hi Guys!!!

Yesterday night I recorded another live concert (always SALSA music, open ambient with loud amplification).

This time audio source was better because it was best regulated: no distortion and less loudness.

I set MIC SENS=LOW & MANUAL LEVEL=15 (not 12 as last time) and REC MODE=PCM (not Hi-SP as last time), results:

VERY BETTER: sound level is low but not fixed at about -12db, it most oscillates around the two bars.

*) WOULD YOU THINK IMPROVEMENTS ARE MORE DUE TO PCM MODE OR TO THE 15 LEVEL SET? (OR TO BETTER AUDIO SOURCE AT ALL?)

I’ve noticed the in general my live recordings have little basses, so I’d like to bass boost, normalize, remove noise, etc. etc.:

**) DO YOU USE Audacity software? Soundforge8? WHICH SW IS MORE USEFUL AND SIMPLY?

***) WHICH DO YOU THINK IS THE BEST SEQUENCE OF OPERTIONS TO DO IN YOUR OPINION? (for example normalize, remove noise, bass boost or viceversa or which?)

****) JUST SOME DAYS AND I WILL GO TO DO RECORDINGS OF LIVE MUSIC WITH NO AMPLIFICATION: DON’T KNOW HOW TO SET: HOW COULD I TEST AT HOME? (to set: AGC or MANUAL LEVEL? MIC SENS?).

Excuse lot of questions but it is going to be a true passion and need to learn in very little time…

MANY TKS to You Friends,

Habanero74

[A440]

A better sound source is always the best improvement, so that's an excellent start. Raising the recording level probably also helped. The idea is to get the highest level you can get without overloading. If 15 works for you, then definitely use it.

PCM rather than Hi-SP probably gave you a little more definition and detail in the sound. It won't change the volume.

Your problem with bass is your microphone. It only picks up down to 100 Hz, so it's missing a lot of bass.

AGC is not good for music because you can hear it raising and lowering the level. You should always use manual.

I would always use Low Sensitivity for music, even unamplified. Just put the Manual Volume up higher--even somewhere in the 20s. Test at home with your stereo, but also look at the levels when recording the first song live.

For editing, I use Audacity, which is very simple and straightforward. Its only quirk is that it uses its own format (.aup), so that instead of "Save" you have to click "Export to .wav"--no big deal.

Remember, you should always keep an unedited copy of your original recording, because every adjustment you make actually gives you lower fidelity.

Noise reduction is not for this purpose. Noise reduction is for problems like static or something like a rumbling air conditioner: a steady noise interfering with the recording. For noise reduction, you give the program a sample of the noise alone to analyze, and it removes frequencies matching that noise from the rest of the recording. If you apply noise reduction to music, you are going to eliminate part of the music.

Normalize will find the loudest part of a track and then amplify the rest to be closer to that peak. You can use that on your quieter tracks.

I don't think bass boost is going to help you much because your mic isn't picking up the bass. But try it and see if it helps. You could also just try boosting bass when you play back the music instead of changing the track itself.

Don't know what to suggest about the order. The key is to get the best recording to begin with and do a minimum of post-processing.

So start saving up for a better microphone. If you are in Europe, look at this thread:

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showt...14388&st=15

When you get a new mic, you are going to have to experiment and find settings that work best with it--they won't be the same as your current mic. You may also need the attenuator or a battery module because as the mic picks up more bass, the preamp in the MD recorder overloads sooner. But it's worth it to have a better microphone.

Edited July 18, 2006 by A440

[Habanero74]

So start saving up for a better microphone.

Hi A440,

I'm not satisfied by my Sony ECM-CS10 (100 - 16,000Hz)!!

Unfortunately I'm in Italy,

Would You advise me a precise mark and model of microphone I colud buy?

Where to buy from Europe?

Could You advise a microphone cost/quality effective that should increase my recordings but not too much expensive and difficult to carry on?

Am I to find a 20-20.000Hz band mic?

TKS

[Roamer]

Did you look at the previous link posted by A440 (Greenmachine's mics) ?

Edited July 20, 2006 by Roamer

[raintheory]

I would highly recommend greenmachines mics, I got a good deal on a set of them recently and they are superb!

-

[JordiHabanero74]

I would highly recommend greenmachines mics, I got a good deal on a set of them recently and they are superb!

I've been to Greenmachine's mics posted by A440 but the link in the forum just connect to another site regarding NO MICS ARGUMENTS!!!!????!!!

Could You indicate better the link (or mark/model to buy from the related european web site)??

TKS

[A440]

http://www.geocities.com/greenmachine_audio/

Or find a post by greenmachine, like this one

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=11254

and send him a PM.