Min Disc vs iRiver ifp as a podcast recording rig

[ratbagradio]

I was keen to explore further an earlier thread

From iRiver to hi MD for podcasting

in which I suggest that podcasters seem biased against Mini Discs Recorders and I wondered why.

I then posed a similar question on the podcasting forum at Yahoo Groups which generated this thread:

MiniDiscs bias? Tell me why?

I'm no expert on MD, as I'm very new to MD use, but it does seem that there's a set knee jerk attitude in this regard than may be not be as informed and up to date as it could be. The respondants listed many MD features that they found annoying and problematical for everyday podcasting.

I've done a search and found a couple of podcasts that rely on MD as their recording tool-- but this phenomenon is sure to be rare.

Any thoughts or rebuttals to some of the criticisms raised on the Podcasting List?

dave riley

[A440]

Most of the podcasters' gripes are based on old models (no uploading) and old software (before 3.2), which left a lingering prejudice against Sony in general and MD in particular. Sony was asking for it, of course--it could hardly have done more to alienate potential buyers than combine restrictive hardware and buggy software.

The MZ-RH1 fixes nearly every problem. (The main remaining gripes, for me, are not being able to turn off auto trackmarking with Line-in and not having a record button on the remote.) But don't tell that to people who are still just figuring out (RTFM) that they can't upload via the USB connection from an NetMD unit, and are angry about it. Sony also ignored Mac users for many years, and apparently lot of podcasters have Macs.

Someone complains that the MZ-NH700 is fragile. No way. My MZ-NHF800 (same basic unit) has had two-plus years of very frequent use, has been dropped more than once on hard surfaces, and just keeps going.

The IFP 7xx series is, indeed, a useful player and a nice little voice recorder if all you want to do is record mp3. But...

PCM recording? Nope.

Hi-fidelity mp3 recording? Maybe, if you don't do the firmware "upgrade" that limits recording to 96kbps. (And without that upgrade, you have to install iRiver Music Manager to transfer anything, though it's an easier drag-and-drop interface than SonicStage.)

Hi-fi music recording? I tried using the same mic-->battery module-->Line-in I use with MD and the iRiver sounded like the music was recorded underwater.

Use with any mic? No, because it has a weird recessed mic jack.

Intuitive interface? Maybe it depends on what you're used to, but to me the iRiver interface makes MD look user-friendly by comparison.

Durability? I don't trust that joystick to last.

Recording time? Probably long enough for most uses, especially in mono. But what do you do when the 1GB is full and you don't have a computer with iRiver Music Manager to upload onto?

On the other hand, since it's a flash unit there's no disc noise, a big plus. It records directly from its FM tuner--some people find this exciting--and plays back .ogg, .wma and .mp3 files without conversion. And it has a very well-designed case. Those that can still be found (refurbished) on eBay are a bargain for a unit with a mic input. But people who think it's a true hi-fi recorder on par with Hi-MD ... well ... ignorance is bliss.

Edited November 6, 2006 by A440

[ratbagradio]

Most of the podcasters' gripes are based on old models ... ignorance is bliss.

Well, I downloaded the SS 4.4 and got to work on my MD -- Sony MZN-H700 -- as I have to negotiate the learning curves because I'm new to minidiscoteching.

I found it so darn easy and straightforward to use that I wonder where these other podcasters are coming from. And I got automatic GAIN control! How cool is that!

In processing I have to go MD >>> WAV >>> EDIT(in Audacity) >>> Mp3 but all of this was one click/two click business. Pretty seamless.

The SS software is very powerful and leaves the crap offered with the iRiver Music Manager for dead.

So I ain't bias, I tell you...

I also ran this query regarding Audacity:

I have just purchased a Sony HiMD MZ NH700 and the whole recording and editing process is new to me. I usually record on a iRiver 700 in Mp3 format and tweak my edit from there.It works fine for what I want in way of podcasting.

However with the Sony do I convert the HiMD created files into WAV for use with Audacity? Is there another way to present files to Audacity other than via WAV format?

OK, so I have converted to WAV and they're in Audacity BUT I want to end up with a file that's

(1) In mono

(2) In mp3 format

(3) I usually aim for 80 kbps

(4) In multiples of 11 khz

The last point is because Flash media players won't play audio in non x11 format without chipmunking them so I need to find a new attribute protocol so that I can end up with a sample rate of mutiples like 11, 22, or 44 kHz.But when I save with these MD files they default to 32 kHz. I start off with a file in stereo of course and I usually split it and change each track to mono before saving to the desired format.

To which I got this reply FYI:

Audacity reads WAV, the compressed formats mp3 and OGG, and can also read raw files as well.

1) To export in mono, make sure all your tracks in the project are mono.

2) Export As mp3

3) Set Bit rate at 80 on the File Formats tab in Audacity preferences

4) Set the project rate (lower left corner) to the desired rate.

Be aware that not all combinations of bitrate and sampling rate work for mp3 export. Thus, test your output file. You eventually will need to adjust either the bitrate or the sampling rate.

[heathenmagic]

I put all my podcasts on to MD. At the minute, I use the lowest quality and it sounds fantastic - to me anyway. Using MZ-RH1. I am learning French at the minute, so I fill a 74 minute MD with loads of lessons. Must be about 10 hours or more.

I find it a breeze to use and reommend it wholeheartedly for podcasts.

The only problem I do have is is that I am not able to edit on the unit. Which is a shame. I can't see the option to divide on the SonicStage software either. Would have been nice to strip some of the podcasts down a bit.

[A440]

In from the Storm:

You can't edit tracks that have been downloaded to the unit on the unit itself.

But mp3s that have been imported to SonicStage can be divided. Highlight the track, and Divide is under Edit in SonicStage.

Or you could edit the mp3 with a sound editing program like Audacity--just use "Export as mp3" (or "Export Selection as mp3") to save your edited version.

Ratbagradio:

Once you have uploaded the tracks from the disc into My Library, you can also use Hi-MD Renderer to convert them directly into .mp3, which can then be edited with Audacity, and skip the .wav step. Hi-MD Renderer is free, from Downloads, though you can send a contribution to Marcnet, the lone programmer who invented it.

BTW, those aren't my quotes above on Audacity, so no credit taken.

Edited November 10, 2006 by A440

[woofcyn]

I recently contacted iRiver. They discontinued all their units that permit live recording. You would have to purchase an older, perhaps refurbished unit. In any case, what is the difference between MP3 and PCM recording? I'd like to record live music from my concerts and upload onto a windows XP computer (to burn into music CDs). I'm using SonicStage for my Sony MP3 player and old MD player (which doesn't upload - very annoying).

Do you think Sony will develop a flash recorder?

The IFP 7xx series is, indeed, a useful player and a nice little voice recorder if all you want to do is record mp3. But...

PCM recording? Nope.

Hi-fidelity mp3 recording? Maybe, if you don't do the firmware "upgrade" that limits recording to 96kbps. (And without that upgrade, you have to install iRiver Music Manager to transfer anything, though it's an easier drag-and-drop interface than SonicStage.)

Hi-fi music recording? I tried using the same mic-->battery module-->Line-in I use with MD and the iRiver sounded like the music was recorded underwater.

On the other hand, since it's a flash unit there's no disc noise, a big plus. It records directly from its FM tuner--some people find this exciting--and plays back .ogg, .wma and .mp3 files without conversion. And it has a very well-designed case. Those that can still be found (refurbished) on eBay are a bargain for a unit with a mic input. But people who think it's a true hi-fi recorder on par with Hi-MD ... well ... ignorance is bliss.

[tekdroid]

In any case, what is the difference between MP3 and PCM recording?

Sony Hi-MD units can record 94 minutes of linear PCM audio (44.1KHz, 16bit, non-compressed audio) on each Hi-MD disc. That means no lossy data-reduction has been applied to the file. In other words, no anomalies from the mp3-encoding process will be present in your recordings - because the unit itself doesn't encode originals to mp3 or any other lossy format like ATRAC, Ogg Vorbis, etc (if it matters to you). It also means that editing of the file and subsequent encoding to another (lossy) file format will not result in cumulative generational data losses (like making a copy of a photocopy).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_data_compression

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lossy_data_compression

In other words, it records just like CD would. So as long as your source (mic, etc) is good, you are getting the best consumer-grade small recorder you can buy for the price. Sony also pack quality A/D & D/A converters, low-noise pre-amps, quality line-in, optical inputs, etc in their Hi-MD units (along with decent audio circuitry throughout) which shows an attention to detail that very few (no?) mp3 recorders I've heard can match (not that I've been looking hard...).

Sony have made flash recorders, but not on the level of Hi-MD (relatively low price, great audio). Probably 'cause they don't wanna compete with Hi-MD, but they certainly can make a lower-end quality flash recorder. PCM-D1 is an example of their pro-level flash recorder.

Edited January 3, 2007 by tekdroid

[woofcyn]

Can the digital voice recorders also be used to record live music and upload into a computer? To my knowledge, musicians are using iRiver which was intended for digital voice recording and marketed as an MP3 player (before they discontinued the recording capability).

Sony have made flash recorders, but not on the level of Hi-MD (relatively low price, great audio). Probably 'cause they don't wanna compete with Hi-MD, but they certainly can make a lower-end quality flash recorder. PCM-D1 is an example of their pro-level flash recorder.

Edited January 4, 2007 by woofcyn

[A440]

Can the digital voice recorders also be used to record live music and upload into a computer?

Can they be used? Yes. Do they sound as good as MD? No.

The IFP in particular struggles to keep up with the amount of information involved in recording music. That's why the firmware "upgrade" cuts the top sampling rate from 320 kbps--high fidelity--to 96 kbps, below average fidelity. (Most music from iTunes is 128 kbps, for instance.) Iriver was admitting that they promised more than they delivered.

There are all kinds of "digital voice recorders" around, and the vast majority of them are worthless for music recording. They use compressed formats to save space on their built-in memory--they can't record in CD-quality PCM, and some can't even record in high-quality .mp3 . The more compressed, the worse the sound. Voice recording is also mono, and built-in microphones are made to record voice, not something as loud as music. They have a limited frequency response and may well overload iwth loud sounds.

The advantage of the IFP-7xx was that it accepts outboard stereo microphones or line input. But it's just not made for real music recording.

So yes, a musician can get some idea of how the performance sounded, as a practice tool. But there won't be a whole lot of pleasure in listening to it. If I were a musician, I wouldn't want to have the only archive of my live performances on a dinky voice recorder.

As processors improve, I expect there will be a little flash recorder that does capture hi-fi sound and has a good interface for music recording. Sony made a stumbling step in that direction with the S700

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=17736

but the proprietary input and line-in only (no mic) disqualify that unit for me.

[ratbagradio]

Can they be used? Yes. Do they sound as good as MD? No.

As I suggest elsewhere the iRiver ftp has no where near the sound quality as a MD of which it is a very crude copy. Its ONLY advantage is that it takes a plug in power microphone. That it records direct to mp3 format is its major limitation as an audio recording device for music. It's handy for podcasting -- such as grabbing a lecture or a quick interview -- but for sound quality relative to MD as a recording source for music, forget about it.

The software sucks too and plays up often with Windows XP I've found(this is an often-occurring bug) and then it won't be recognised by any computer as hardware UNLESS you install the software which is major drawback if you need to use different machines or are travelling --so the recording material is stuck inside the device until you get to your pc where the software is installed.(Unlike MD format where you take out the audio files anytime you move remove a disk)

But podcasters love it! And thats' primarily because:

• they are ignorant of or biased against HiMD(basing their opinion on earlier models)
• they use the iRiver ifp because it is a cheaper device than newer HiMd models (although second hand or on eBay this ceases to be an issue

I reviewed my options and considered whether to purchase another iRiver ifp OR a Sony Hi MD. I am so happy I went with the latter purchase. The price on eBay was the same so I deliberated long term even passing up some good buys while I delayed. But the one connection worth noting is that BOTH take plug in power mics and that was my practical first consideration. I saw myself as a particular microphone user. Most other devices require a preamp setup for mic-ing. So the microphone source you follow may facilitate your decision --and there is such a wide range of inexpensive plug in power electret mics for MD or the iRiver ifp models(check out Visivox [Canada]or Giant Squid[uSA]--I say that, and I'm in Australia --although I gather GreenMachine offers some created in Europe)

And remember: ifp 700s aren't made anymore.(And that was for a good reason esp in regard to the software!)

[A440]

Its ONLY advantage is that it takes a plug in power microphone.

BOTH take plug in power mics and that was my practical first consideration.

Just highlighting here in case the top of the post misleads people.

The IFP's advantage over other flash recorders is that it provides plug-in power to a mic.

As ratbagradio notes later, that's not an advantage over MD.

MD and Hi-MD have ALWAYS had plug-in power at the mic jack.