cochra1 Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 I'm seriously considering getting one of those sexy little MZ-RH1s for 2 reasons - 1 my NH600's jog wheel has packed in after 4 years (!)2 the RH1 handles mp3s also, which is a more convenient format in terms of file moving/storing/sharingBut as I was about to order one, I was checking out the specs, and to my horror of horrors it has a...(wait for it...) * DYNAMIC VOLUME NORMALISER!!! *I hate these kinds of things that mess with the sound in any way. Some tracks are just meant to be quieter or louder than others. Question is: Can this be disabled on a menu? Or do you need a hack to remove it?I have only just hacked my NH600 to get rid of the horrible volume limiter (which has improved the sound no end) so don't want to be lumbered with another limiting device.All advice would be most welcome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdmania Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 I'm seriously considering getting one of those sexy little MZ-RH1s for 2 reasons - 1 my NH600's jog wheel has packed in after 4 years (!)2 the RH1 handles mp3s also, which is a more convenient format in terms of file moving/storing/sharingBut as I was about to order one, I was checking out the specs, and to my horror of horrors it has a...(wait for it...) * DYNAMIC VOLUME NORMALISER!!! *I hate these kinds of things that mess with the sound in any way. Some tracks are just meant to be quieter or louder than others. Question is: Can this be disabled on a menu? Or do you need a hack to remove it?I have only just hacked my NH600 to get rid of the horrible volume limiter (which has improved the sound no end) so don't want to be lumbered with another limiting device.All advice would be most welcome! Wow! I am surprised that you don't like the idea of having a "Dynamic Normaliser" You are entitled to what to like and not to like. However, I am for one a big fan of this feature. I completely understand that you feel that certain songs are meant to be lower than the others but to me it is very annoying since I like to make compilation from different CD's and shuffle from one disc to another disc that has completely different recording levels. RH1 is the best thing that Sony ever came up in terms of MD format. Don't be discouraged since "Dynamic Normalizer" can be switch to OFF and you are not force to use it. Buy it and you won't regret it. Good luck anyway with your decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tekdroid Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 1 my NH600's jog wheel has packed in after 4 years (!)The units came out in 2004, it hasn't even been 3 years since release Or did you get an advance release? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raintheory Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 The Dynamic Normalizer isn't set to "ON" by default, and you aren't forced to use it in any way.I agree that some parts/songs are meant to be quieter, but the Dynamic Normalizer has at least come in handy for me when it comes to listening to my own live recordings that the volume turned out low on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cochra1 Posted February 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 The units came out in 2004, it hasn't even been 3 years since release Or did you get an advance release? You're absolutely right my friend, well done for spotting the deliberate mistake!Seriously, yeah, I was muddling up my machines - I think it was 4 yrs ago when I bought my previous MD, so I guess I did get my NH600 in '04. Damn jog wheel just doesn't work anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raintheory Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Do you at least have a remote for the NH600? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cochra1 Posted February 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 (edited) Wow! I am surprised that you don't like the idea of having a "Dynamic Normaliser" You are entitled to what to like and not to like. However, I am for one a big fan of this feature. I completely understand that you feel that certain songs are meant to be lower than the others but to me it is very annoying since I like to make compilation from different CD's and shuffle from one disc to another disc that has completely different recording levels. RH1 is the best thing that Sony ever came up in terms of MD format. Don't be discouraged since "Dynamic Normalizer" can be switch to OFF and you are not force to use it. Buy it and you won't regret it. Good luck anyway with your decision.That's good that it is turn-offable, thanks for the advice, it's encouraging. Just to explain why I really detest these 'normalisers' or 'volume limiters'. They don't just control or level out the volume. They seriously degrade the sound quality of the track being listened to. Just compare a CD on a (decent) stereo system with a song being broadcast on FM radio (or DAB for that matter). Radio stations feed all their signals through a 'compressor' (do not confuse with data compression, this is dynamic compression). This levels out the volume, squashes the high volumes down and raises the quiet volumes up. This saps energy and dynamics from mixes and causes a pumping effect, especially for music with a beat (rock, pop, etc). All music is recorded and mixed and produced using compressors anyway, but is factored into the intended mix and is applied much more intelligentally, often targeting specific frequency ranges (multi-band compressors).A cheap 'n nasty digital compressor/limiter is built into our modern minidisc machines (and all personal media players), which they call 'normalisers' or 'auto volume limiters' and we are told these are good things. These only kick in at the louder levels - but not that loud. Well, if you want everything sounding flat and loudish for, say, noisey train journeys or whatever, and if hi fidelity is not an issue, then great! But otherwise, turn the damn thing off (use a hack if applicable) and enjoy your tracks in their original dynamic form as intended by the bands and producers who made them. But each to their own! Edited February 7, 2007 by KanakoAndTheNumbSkulls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eriktous Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 You keep talking about compression, but as I understand it, the Dynamic Normaliser on the RH1 is actually a normaliser, not a compressor.You're probably thinking of the volume limiter that is present on some (most/all?) European models, which IIRC works as a compressor, but not the Dynamic Normaliser on the RH1. (That's probably the reason they called it a Dynamic Normaliser, instead of a Dynamic Compressor. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparda Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 You have no reason to worry. The Dynamic Normalizer is just only one of the options in the sound menu. You can use Normal, EQ, the VPT engine or of course the Dynamic Normalizer. I like to keep the EQ on, at a custom setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cochra1 Posted February 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 (edited) You keep talking about compression, but as I understand it, the Dynamic Normaliser on the RH1 is actually a normaliser, not a compressor.You're probably thinking of the volume limiter that is present on some (most/all?) European models, which IIRC works as a compressor, but not the Dynamic Normaliser on the RH1. (That's probably the reason they called it a Dynamic Normaliser, instead of a Dynamic Compressor. )I know what you mean. But I'm just thinking logically (go with me on this!): usually to normalise a track it needs to be analysed first to ascertain the highest peaks and then to raise the volume of the whole track as much as possible without the peaks 'clipping' in order to maximise the said track's overall volume.But your minidisc player isn't going to do this - the only way of 'normalising' your songs in realtime would be to apply some kind of limiting or compression before raising the volume. Afterall, it doesn't know in advance if suddenly in the middle of a calm, peaceful song there is going to be a sudden blast in a loud chorus or whatever, which would clip if the overall volume had previously been raised with no limiting.I'd be genuinely interested in your response, if I'm way off here. No need to roll your eyes at me. Edited February 8, 2007 by KanakoAndTheNumbSkulls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raintheory Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 (edited) I think I agree...The term Dynamic Normalizer makes me think there is some sort of compressor/expander working in realtime, versus a just a plain old Normalizer which, as you say would have to analyze the track in it's entirety in order to avoid possible clipping.As I stated before, the only time I have used this is while listening to my own mic recordings where the volume is too low. I haven't noticed anything in those recordings that has (yet) stopped me from using the feature.I would however love to get ahold of specific information about the feature somehow... Edited February 9, 2007 by raintheory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdmania Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 I think I agree...The term Dynamic Normalizer makes me think there is some sort of compressor/expander working in realtime, versus a just a plain old Normalizer which, as you say would have to analyze the track in it's entirety in order to avoid possible clipping.As I stated before, the only time I have used this is while listening to my own mic recordings where the volume is too low. I haven't noticed anything in those recordings that has (yet) stopped me from using the feature.I would however love to get ahold of specific information about the feature somehow...This is indeed an interesting feature. I also would like to know how this thing works. I have tried in the past before with other mp3 player from Creative's Smart Volume Limiter and iPods's Sound Check and so far these two feature is nowhere near as good as Sony's Dynamic Normalizer. They were not as consistent and gives artifacts to the sound. To me, having Dynamic Normalizer is very important. Prior to that, I was stuck using MP3 file so that I can use MP3Gain and normalize my mp3 files.This is indeed an interesting feature. I also would like to know how this thing works. I have tried in the past before with other mp3 player from Creative's Smart Volume Limiter and iPods's Sound Check and so far these two feature is nowhere near as good as Sony's Dynamic Normalizer. They were not as consistent and gives artifacts to the sound. To me, having Dynamic Normalizer is very important. Prior to that, I was stuck using MP3 file so that I can use MP3Gain and normalize my mp3 files.I think I agree...The term Dynamic Normalizer makes me think there is some sort of compressor/expander working in realtime, versus a just a plain old Normalizer which, as you say would have to analyze the track in it's entirety in order to avoid possible clipping.As I stated before, the only time I have used this is while listening to my own mic recordings where the volume is too low. I haven't noticed anything in those recordings that has (yet) stopped me from using the feature.I would however love to get ahold of specific information about the feature somehow...This is indeed an interesting feature. I also would like to know how this thing works. I have tried in the past before with other mp3 player from Creative's Smart Volume Limiter and iPods's Sound Check and so far these two feature is nowhere near as good as Sony's Dynamic Normalizer. They were not as consistent and gives artifacts to the sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cochra1 Posted February 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 This is indeed an interesting feature. I also would like to know how this thing works. I have tried in the past before with other mp3 player from Creative's Smart Volume Limiter and iPods's Sound Check and so far these two feature is nowhere near as good as Sony's Dynamic Normalizer. They were not as consistent and gives artifacts to the sound. To me, having Dynamic Normalizer is very important. Prior to that, I was stuck using MP3 file so that I can use MP3Gain and normalize my mp3 files.This is indeed an interesting feature. I also would like to know how this thing works. I have tried in the past before with other mp3 player from Creative's Smart Volume Limiter and iPods's Sound Check and so far these two feature is nowhere near as good as Sony's Dynamic Normalizer. They were not as consistent and gives artifacts to the sound.It's reassuring for me both that the 'normaliser' can be turned off, and it's good to hear it gives a better sound than your usual volume limiter (which I know how to hack anyway, so that's not a problem).I'm still wondering what kind of effect it would have on a really dynamic track, eg. 'The Musical Box' by Genesis from their Nursery Cryme album. It's really quiet for ages to build the tension, then it explodes into loud rock. How would the normaliser deal with this? Surely if the quiet part was 'normalised' to a higher volume, the genuine loud parts would have less impact and not sound much louder. I liked what someone said earlier about it possibly being an 'expander' - these use similar technology to limiters, but the effect is to bring up the quiet bits without necessarily squashing down the loud bits. But the overall effect is still, by definition, compression (dynamic compression I mean, not data). Still, now I know it can be turned off, I don't have to worry. Thanks everyone. Do you at least have a remote for the NH600?No, don't use a remote for my player (I've tried them) - those things degrade the sound, which to me is the number one factor.I really don't recommend sticking that bit of cheap circuitry in the chain between your (hopefully) decent earphones and your player. Sorry, gone a bit off topic hear. I really appreciate all your advice on the MZ-RH1 and the normaliser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozpeter Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 (edited) Heh, I didn't know my RH-1 had this feature! I don't normally use it with the remote (indeed, I don't normally use it for playback) so I had (a) realise you need the remote plugged in to access the feature and ( then to find it using the "sound" button on the 40ELK remote I'm using.A quick test indicates that it's a fairly normal compressor. Not too bad of its sort - handy for listening not too seriously in a noisy environment to tracks with varying volumes. If you don't have a use for it, just ignore it (like me!).(In the context of simple playback, compression can use a bit of "lookahead" to get good results - it can slightly delay the audio so that, having discovered that there's a peak in the upcoming audio, it can turn it down and then play it, rather than being taken by surprise as it were. Whether this uses such a scheme I don't know, but if I had been the Sony designers, I'd at least have considered it. Perhaps this is why they chose the name "Dynamic Normaliser" - it's not a true normaliser, which as stated earlier in this thread requires that the whole track is assessed for peaks before playback, but it's at least checking for peaks a few milliseconds ahead). Edited February 10, 2007 by ozpeter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparda Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 What is the big fuss... You now know that this Dynamic Normalizer can be turned off, get going and buy it already. And to tell you the truth adding the remote to the link doesn't degrade the sound quality to a noticeable point, if any. The output is analogue anyways it is inevitable for there to be some slight degradation of the SQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cochra1 Posted February 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 What is the big fuss... You now know that this Dynamic Normalizer can be turned off, get going and buy it already. And to tell you the truth adding the remote to the link doesn't degrade the sound quality to a noticeable point, if any. The output is analogue anyways it is inevitable for there to be some slight degradation of the SQ.You're right Sparda, goddammit, I'm gonna do it! Thanks to OzPeter for those wise words also.And thanks Sparda for assuring me that the remote link doesn't cause any noticable degradation - I have had some bad experiences in the past, but that was an Aiwa remote, and it was pretty nasty. But either way, it's the player/recorder itself that counts. I'm gonna get me one of them there babies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cochra1 Posted February 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Sounds good! I forgot to ask earlier, anyone:There have been some well publicised issues regarding MP3s sounding crappy on minidiscs (some even accused Sony of deliberately setting up their units to make MP3s sound bad so that ATRAC would be favoured).Has this issue been resolved with the RH1? I ask because I'm not gonna download ATRAC files at the crappy bitrate currently offered by Connect (I mean! 132kbps - better to buy the CD and copy it myself), so I'm wanting to combine the convenience of both formats (minidisc hardware + MP3 files).So, do MP3s sound good on this sexy little beast? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raintheory Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Yes, there has been discussion regarding the Mp3 issue elsewhere in the forums...Regarding the RH1, there seems to be a consensus here in the forums that the issue has been resolved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eriktous Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 I'd be genuinely interested in your response, if I'm way off here. No need to roll your eyes at me.After reading your explanation and thinking about it, I think your probably right. I apologise for the tone of my previous post, which was misplaced.As you say, the Dynamic Normalizer could only be a true normalizer, if the machine would analyse the complete track before playing it (which it doesn't do, otherwise it would take too long when you skip from one track to another), or if a peak value would be stored in the header of each track, which would mean each track would have to be analysed at the moment of recording. However, if storing a track's peak value was part of the (Hi)MD standard, they could have introduced such a feature easily on earlier machines, which hasn't been the case.So I repeat, you're right; I was wrong. It's most likely a compressor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdmania Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 After reading your explanation and thinking about it, I think your probably right. I apologise for the tone of my previous post, which was misplaced.As you say, the Dynamic Normalizer could only be a true normalizer, if the machine would analyse the complete track before playing it (which it doesn't do, otherwise it would take too long when you skip from one track to another), or if a peak value would be stored in the header of each track, which would mean each track would have to be analysed at the moment of recording. However, if storing a track's peak value was part of the (Hi)MD standard, they could have introduced such a feature easily on earlier machines, which hasn't been the case.So I repeat, you're right; I was wrong. It's most likely a compressor.Since this "dynamic normalizer" coming from Sony I am confident that they are using a more advance technology. I am not an expert or claim as an expert but I have play around with other normalizer related before like Sound check (iPod), Smart volume limiter (Creative) and Rio Karma's normalizer and none of them as succesful as the Sony's dynamic normalizer at least to my ear. Most normalizer adds artifacts to the sound and Sony's DN is fairly clean and almost keeps it's original sound. Some of you here may argue but this is only coming from my observation. Feel free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cochra1 Posted February 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 (edited) After reading your explanation and thinking about it, I think your probably right. I apologise for the tone of my previous post, which was misplaced.As you say, the Dynamic Normalizer could only be a true normalizer, if the machine would analyse the complete track before playing it (which it doesn't do, otherwise it would take too long when you skip from one track to another), or if a peak value would be stored in the header of each track, which would mean each track would have to be analysed at the moment of recording. However, if storing a track's peak value was part of the (Hi)MD standard, they could have introduced such a feature easily on earlier machines, which hasn't been the case.So I repeat, you're right; I was wrong. It's most likely a compressor.WRONG! IN YOUR FACE ERIKTOUS! Only joking my friend, it's cool! It seems, from much of the feedback to be found, that the D Normalizer is about the best of all the various 'volume-effecting' modules out there. Edited February 13, 2007 by KanakoAndTheNumbSkulls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cochra1 Posted February 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Thanks everyone for your advice, I have now purchased an RH1 through ebay for £175, and am awaiting delivery.Can't wait!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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