USB connecting cable quality?

[blockflute]

Hi Guys,

Some of you may know I've been trying to find out why I can't make perfect CD copies from some excellent live recordings on my NH700. Sonic Stage seems to be the culprit but looking at this 1M length of standard USB cable with a tiddly Sony type mini USB at one end and various magnetic clip on filters, I'm thingking perhaps this is the cause of my losses. Is there such a thing as a "High-End" or "audio" grade USB cable and is this "mini" USB socket a Sony special or a generally available item? There certainly are differences in digital coax cables so why not on these too?

I'd be grateful to hear members views and experiences.

Jon Finlayson

[Strungup]

Hi Guys,

Some of you may know I've been trying to find out why I can't make perfect CD copies from some excellent live recordings on my NH700. Sonic Stage seems to be the culprit but looking at this 1M length of standard USB cable with a tiddly Sony type mini USB at one end and various magnetic clip on filters, I'm thingking perhaps this is the cause of my losses. Is there such a thing as a "High-End" or "audio" grade USB cable and is this "mini" USB socket a Sony special or a generally available item? There certainly are differences in digital coax cables so why not on these too?

I'd be grateful to hear members views and experiences.

Jon Finlayson

The shorter the cable the less interference. Thus more stable. Mini b usb is a standard cable. I dont know if the connecter on the 700 is a Mini B though, the RH1 is.

[Sparky191]

Its a standard connector. I sure you can buy more expensive cables even gold plated ones but I don't believe theres any difference, I use any auld cable I have handy. In theory the Sony one should be the best one filters. I don't think it makes any difference though. Perhaps your cable is faulty. What problems are you having?

Try it on another computer with a difference cable then work backwards to eliminate all causes.

[blockflute]

Its a standard connector. I sure you can buy more expensive cables even gold plated ones but I don't believe theres any difference, I use any auld cable I have handy. In theory the Sony one should be the best one filters. I don't think it makes any difference though. Perhaps your cable is faulty. What problems are you having?

Try it on another computer with a difference cable then work backwards to eliminate all causes.

Thanks to both for the comments. The problem is that the CDs I can make, whilst OK, simply miss important detail that gives depth, transparency, and fine audio quality. Its not the monitoring equipment which is valve amps/electrostatic hybrids etc etc all DiY. Its not the burning because I can burn perfect copies on EAC from other CDs. I import to PC using Sonic Stage 4.2 thence WAV files into Audition or direct to EAC. And, I'm using PCM. After weeks of consultation and discussion I was about to abandon the digital link for an analogue alternative & then I gazed at this bit of commercial cable and thought . . . hmmm? The cable looks undamaged - I doubt it's faulty in that sense. But I do wonder whether the tiny contact area of the pins or the shielding could be a weakness, or the fact that the cable is dragged round the magnetic blocks . . but no - either the wire is intact or its broken in which case - presumably - no signal. What do the strands do BTW. That would be useful to know.

Jon

[Sparky191]

If there was a problem with the I/O like that I think you would see major data problems not the subtle difference you are talking about. Perhaps theres a problem with the HiMD you are using. Can you record direct to the PC and compare recordings? That should highlight differences in the DAC.

I don't understand what recordings are you comparing. CD's VS live recordings made on the HiMD?

The shorter the cable the less interference. Thus more stable. Mini b usb is a standard cable. I dont know if the connecter on the 700 is a Mini B though, the RH1 is.

It is. I don't think the problem jonfinlayson is describing sounds like interference though. I've only basic recording knowledge. This topic might be better moved to the recording forum where the recording experts would see it.

[A440]

Stereo cables--headphone cables, speaker cables, etc.--transmit analogue signals that are susceptible to degradation with every electron that doesn't get through. But the USB cable is just sending ones and zeros, and the file is exactly copied. Compare the sizes of the file in the computer with the size of the one on the MD--they should be the same, and if all the bits are there, they should be identical.

Is it possible that you are just hearing the difference between the compression of MD recording and the higher quality of CDs? Or the difference between playback from the MD unit and your stereo? A good stereo can sometimes reveal deficiencies.

[boojum]

There are a lot of variables in this mix. The USB cable is the last I would suspect. Bad recording? Bad mics? It could be a lot of things.

[Strungup]

Thanks to both for the comments. The problem is that the CDs I can make, whilst OK, simply miss important detail that gives depth, transparency, and fine audio quality. Its not the monitoring equipment which is valve amps/electrostatic hybrids etc etc all DiY. Its not the burning because I can burn perfect copies on EAC from other CDs. I import to PC using Sonic Stage 4.2 thence WAV files into Audition or direct to EAC. And, I'm using PCM. After weeks of consultation and discussion I was about to abandon the digital link for an analogue alternative & then I gazed at this bit of commercial cable and thought . . . hmmm? The cable looks undamaged - I doubt it's faulty in that sense. But I do wonder whether the tiny contact area of the pins or the shielding could be a weakness, or the fact that the cable is dragged round the magnetic blocks . . but no - either the wire is intact or its broken in which case - presumably - no signal. What do the strands do BTW. That would be useful to know.

Jon

HeHeHe ,,,dudes ....he is on TUBES .!!!! an Audiophile with SS on his PC , hmmmm Since I am on a Mac I will ask a question and the postulate a theory. He is recording in PCM on the MD , Can he from the MD directly import the Wave file withou going through SS?

didnt someone have a prog Hi MD Renderer or something that would do that? .

In the Imorting to SS from the HiMD what he first hears in the MD itself in the phones or by line out ,I have noticed this on the RH1 , my MD's just sound better , more clarity in the Highs , and generally more "open" sounding (talking bout my legacy discs here) Acoustic Alchemy , the Strings just sound snappy and crisp. That is the AMP in the RH1 , so possibly after going thru SS and burning to CD he might just be hearing the difference in the Outputs of the MD , and the reference material on CD Coming thru a Tube setup, Very different characteristics. Might even come out sounding a little "boxy "

Jon , am I anywhere near what your hearing with this though , or am I in Left field here?

I would be interested to hear the difference of the HiMD copied realtime to a Dedicated CD Recorder, and the transfer thru SS to CD

Edited April 11, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[Sparky191]

DAC's amps and who knows what effecting the sound.

[blockflute]

Stereo cables--headphone cables, speaker cables, etc.--transmit analogue signals that are susceptible to degradation with every electron that doesn't get through. But the USB cable is just sending ones and zeros, and the file is exactly copied. Compare the sizes of the file in the computer with the size of the one on the MD--they should be the same, and if all the bits are there, they should be identical.

Is it possible that you are just hearing the difference between the compression of MD recording and the higher quality of CDs? Or the difference between playback from the MD unit and your stereo? A good stereo can sometimes reveal deficiencies.

Yes - good point - I must look up how to read the file size in the MD.

I'm not using compression in the MD unless I've misunderstood what Linear PCM is about. It claims to be compressionless. The playbacks I'm comparing come from the HiMD in the NH700 as recorded by me with v.g. condenser mics. lineout to my TVC, amps, speakers. All high end. the CD copies go thru an excellent modified Pioneer deck with balanced o/ps to TVC etc

Jon

[blockflute]

HeHeHe ,,,dudes ....he is on TUBES .!!!! an Audiophile with SS on his PC , hmmmm Since I am on a Mac I will ask a question and the postulate a theory. He is recording in PCM on the MD , Can he from the MD directly import the Wave file withou going through SS?

that,

Yes - I've done but you get an apparently unusable file. I've asked Marc about HiMD Renderer but it seems that is not likely to deal with my problem.

didnt someone have a prog Hi MD Renderer or something that would do that? .

In the Imorting to SS from the HiMD what he first hears in the MD itself in the phones or by line out ,I have noticed this on the RH1 , my MD's just sound better , more clarity in the Highs , and generally more "open" sounding (talking bout my legacy discs here) Acoustic Alchemy , the Strings just sound snappy and crisp. That is the AMP in the RH1 , so possibly after going thru SS and burning to CD he might just be hearing the difference in the Outputs of the MD , and the reference material on CD Coming thru a Tube setup, Very different characteristics. Might even come out sounding a little "boxy "

Jon , am I anywhere near what your hearing with this though , or am I in Left field here?

You may be highlighting the area of the problem. Pity we don't have circuit diagrams! If the lineout/headphone output comes thru a nice quality analogue circuit which it must, because it sounds great, whilst the digital out via USB has not had the same care and attention, that would explain the problem. How many other users of similar HiMDs have noticed this I wonder? You would only notice it if you have good playback gear and fussy ears like mine!

I would be interested to hear the difference of the HiMD copied realtime to a Dedicated CD Recorder, and the transfer thru SS to CD

If this is the problem then the analogue route thru the PC is the only answer.

[Sparky191]

....I'm ....the HiMD in the NH700 ...to my ... CD ...Pioneer deck ...

I'm a novice at this but IMO thats the difference. Your comparing the DAC & amp of the HiMD to your modified CD player. Even if the source material is digitally the same they'll still be a difference, unless you were using a digital line out from the HiMD/CD to the amp maybe there wouldn't. But you are using analog line outs, so it goes through a DAC and AMP.

Edited April 12, 2007 by Sparky191

[blockflute]

If there was a problem with the I/O like that I think you would see major data problems not the subtle difference you are talking about. Perhaps theres a problem with the HiMD you are using. Can you record direct to the PC and compare recordings? That should highlight differences in the DAC.

No, my sound card isn't good enough to record direct to the PC. If the problem is in the digital out circuit it could be just my unit but it sounds as if it may not be - see Guitarfxr below . .

I don't understand what recordings are you comparing. CD's VS live recordings made on the HiMD?

It is. I don't think the problem jonfinlayson is describing sounds like interference though. I've only basic recording knowledge. This topic might be better moved to the recording forum where the recording experts would see it.

Yes I did air it on that Forum a few weeks back but generally people didn't think it possible. "You can't lose digits!" Hmmmm.

[Sparky191]

You may be highlighting the area of the problem. Pity we don't have circuit diagrams! If the lineout/headphone output comes thru a nice quality analogue circuit which it must, because it sounds great, whilst the digital out via USB has not had the same care and attention, that would explain the problem. How many other users of similar HiMDs have noticed this I wonder? You would only notice it if you have good playback gear and fussy ears like mine!

I would be interested to hear the difference of the HiMD copied realtime to a Dedicated CD Recorder, and the transfer thru SS to CD

If this is the problem then the analogue route thru the PC is the only answer.

Maybe I'm mixing this up. You prefer the sound of the HiMD though the analog out instead of the digital copy via the USB? The USB doesn't add or detract anything, thats a blind ally. But the DAC and the AMP of the HiMD will certain add something to the sound. So what you are saying is you prefer the DAC/AMP than you do DAC of the CD player.

If you rip an original CD to PCM and listen to that via the HiMD and then the original CD via the CD player which do you prefer.

I suspect you might need to do some blind ABX with someone else controlling it to see if you are really hearing wehat you thing you are hearing.

Yes I did air it on that Forum a few weeks back but generally people didn't think it possible. "You can't lose digits!" Hmmmm.

Its not that you can't lose them, it just the effect of losing them would be immediately noticeable, there would be gaps, drop outs, garbled sound etc. Not the sutble difference you are hearing.

Edited April 12, 2007 by Sparky191

[blockflute]

Maybe I'm mixing this up. You prefer the sound of the HiMD though the analog out instead of the digital copy via the USB? The USB doesn't add or detract anything, thats a blind ally. But the DAC and the AMP of the HiMD will certain add something to the sound. So what you are saying is you prefer the DAC/AMP than you do DAC of the CD player.

Yes, but I don't think its as simple as that.

If you rip an original CD to PCM and listen to that via the HiMD and then the original CD via the CD player which do you prefer.

I'll do that

I suspect you might need to do some blind ABX with someone else controlling it to see if you are really hearing wehat you thing you are hearing.

I've done that and the differences were very clear indeed.

Its not that you can't lose them, it just the effect of losing them would be immediately noticeable, there would be gaps, drop outs, garbled sound etc. Not the sutble difference you are hearing.

I get that - it makes sense.

[Strungup]

What this is , is a True display , of what the Dynamics of an amp will do , the absolute proof that each Amp has its own Character , and why there cannot be a Definative "Best" . As that each piece of gear has it own personality sometimes those personalities might not agree.

Very Subtle differences in circuit design , will produce dramatic results. You can have ten different compressors, with the same specs, but each one will have its own voice.

The LineAmp of the MD is actually very nice , and has a very wide dynamic range , But it does add some color to the sound and emphasis , so that the Digital Out and the Line out have a very different character. This isnt about Bits and Bytes, it is about Dynamic Response.

Why do Audiophiles(Like Myself ) Have seven different pairs of headphones, or three or four different sound systems in different areas of the house. , Purely because This disc sounds good on That system , and THis Disc sounds good on the Other one. My Jackson Brown "Im Alive" I play almost exclusively thru the Yamaha RH-M5A headphones or through my Digita reference monitors with the Optical input , it is just one of the best engineered recordings I have heard.

But My Kansas or Boston , goes thru a different setup altogether . And then there is the Vivaldi,, lets not go there

Point is , Getting used to what each piece of gear will and will not do for you . That is why good recording studios have these massive racks of processors . Each one has its own voice . And Each one will shine on its own for a particular thing.

End result , Hook your MD up to that wonderfull sound system , and let it speak its own voice. But burn the CD's to archive and share

Edited April 12, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[Sparky191]

The only difference in the chain is the HiMD and the CD player though isn't it. Power amp and speakers are the same. Source material is digitally the same.

Could you put the HiMD between the CD and Power amp as a preamp. CD to line in on HiMD and line out level on the HiMD to power amp. Put the HiMD into record and on pause. Thus the output of the CD is going through the DAC and AMP of the HIMD. Can you hear the difference between that and not using the HiMD as a preamp. Make sure levels are the same. Apparently people often hear a difference in level as a difference in quality.

TBH you haven't thus far compared like with like. Comparing a home recording with that of a CD isn't a valid comparision IMO. Unless I'm not understanding what you've done thus far.

What this is , is a True display , of what the Dynamics of an amp will do , the absolute proof that each Amp has its own Character , and why there cannot be a Definative "Best" . As that each piece of gear has it own personality sometimes those personalities might not agree.

Very Subtle differences in circuit design , will produce dramatic results. You can have ten different compressors, with the same specs, but each one will have its own voice. ....

I agree with Guitarfxr I think thats what happening here too. I think its natural to prefer one voicing over another.

[blockflute]

The only difference in the chain is the HiMD and the CD player though isn't it. Power amp and speakers are the same. Source material is digitally the same.

Could you put the HiMD between the CD and Power amp as a preamp. CD to line in on HiMD and line out level on the HiMD to power amp. Put the HiMD into record and on pause. Thus the output of the CD is going through the DAC and AMP of the HIMD. Can you hear the difference between that and not using the HiMD as a preamp. Make sure levels are the same. Apparently people often hear a difference in level as a difference in quality.

TBH you haven't thus far compared like with like. Comparing a home recording with that of a CD isn't a valid comparision IMO. Unless I'm not understanding what you've done thus far.

I don't think you have. I am comparing two renditions of the same recording, one I made (several different ones actually in various locations) but let's talk about one as the example. I listen to it thru the same Hi Fi system. One, it comes from the disc in the HiMD (call it the master recording) - Two, it comes from the CD I burned using EAC, after transfering the master to the PC via Sonic Stage.

I agree with Guitarfxr I think thats what happening here too. I think its natural to prefer one voicing over another.

No its not "voicing". Its more like the difference between CD & SACD but much greater than that. The burned CD sounds more muddled, less spacious, less delicate, less brilliant. However commercial CDs sound superb and so do the copies I burn of them using the same gear!! So its not that.

Anyhow, I am grateful for your interest and the other comments.

Regards,

Jon

[Sparky191]

No its not "voicing". Its more like the difference between CD & SACD but much greater than that. The burned CD sounds more muddled, less spacious, less delicate, less brilliant. However commercial CDs sound superb and so do the copies I burn of them using the same gear!! So its not that.

Anyhow, I am grateful for your interest and the other comments.

Regards,

Jon

But your not comparing like with like. A home recording vs Commerical CD.

[Strungup]

No its not "voicing". Its more like the difference between CD & SACD but much greater than that. The burned CD sounds more muddled, less spacious, less delicate, less brilliant. However commercial CDs sound superb and so do the copies I burn of them using the same gear!! So its not that.

Anyhow, I am grateful for your interest and the other comments.

Regards,

Jon

Production CD's have never been through a "Conversion process" and have gone through a "Mastering " Facility to make that sound , and the are burned from generally 24 bit masters. What happens with the SS then is 16 bit which would be much less detailed and airy as a SACD would be ,, SACD is if I am not mistaken 20bit mastered directly to production.

That is a fair difference and it would be audible

Is there a setting in the preferences of SS to allow 24 bit rate conversion?

Edited April 12, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[Sparky191]

...

Is there a setting in the preferences of SS to allow 24 bit rate conversion?

24 bit rate conversion of what?

[blockflute]

But your not comparing like with like. A home recording vs Commerical CD.

No. please read the text again. WE are not comparing a commercial CD with a home recording!!

[A440]

MDs record in 16-bit, not 24-bit. Can't be changed. It's in the chip.

About SonicStage and PCM: SonicStage doesn't compress those recordings. All it does is add and then (when you convert to .wav) remove its encryption.

What happens if you play the uploaded recording in My Library out of your computer through your hi-fi system?

[Sparky191]

No. please read the text again. WE are not comparing a commercial CD with a home recording!!

...I can't make perfect CD copies from some excellent live recordings on my NH700....

....The burned CD sounds more muddled, less spacious, less delicate, less brilliant. However commercial CDs sound superb and so do the copies I burn of them using the same gear...

Well I'm baffled, how did you get the recordings on the HiMD?

[A440]

Sparky, he's saying that the burner works correctly--it makes clear copies of commercial CDs--not that he's comparing the commercial and home-recorded material.

And he's saying he hears a difference between the recording that he plays from the MD and the same recording as uploaded and burned to a CD.

I don't know why this would happen, since it's the same file. Guitarfxr's explanation that it's different amps sounds most logical to me.

Another test would be to transfer the uploaded recording back onto another MD and see if the sound quality is somehow different from the original MD.

How about trying that, Jon?

[Sparky191]

Scenerio 1

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

a) HiMD > AMP > Speakers = ok

b ) CD (of MD) > CD Player > Amp > Speaker = not ok

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Scenerio 2

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

c) CD > CD Player > Amp > Speakers = ok

d ) CD (Copy) > CD Player > Amp > Speakers =ok

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Maybe I'm wrong but IMO hes comparing Scenerio 1 vs Scenerio 2. Because the CD is the same in C & D he thinks that A & B should be the same.

But in C & D the source data, the DACs and Amps are all the same.

But in A & B the source data is the same but the DACs and Amps are not. The difference is the extra DAC and Amp internal to the HiMD.

You could bypass the DAC and AMP on the HiMD if it has a digtial out. But it doesn't. Using the PC doesn't help because you'd be using the DAC on the PC sound card. The only half valid test you can do is by using optical line out of the PC to optical line in on the HiMD then your avoiding the USB connection. It will still sound

different to the same CD via the CD player, as the difference is still the DAC and Amp internal to the HiMD.

Scenerio 3

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

e) CD > HiMD (optical in) > HiMD > AMP > Speakers (same as f data & chain the same)

f) CD > USB (SS) > HiMD > AMP > Speakers (same as e data & chain the same)

g) CD > CD Player > AMP > Speakers (different to both e & f as no HiMD DAC and AMP inthe chain, data the same though.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

IMO the CD copy of the HiMD recording is the true recording, uncoloured by the DAC and amp of the HiMD.

Edited April 12, 2007 by Sparky191

[blockflute]

Sparky, he's saying that the burner works correctly--it makes clear copies of commercial CDs--not that he's comparing the commercial and home-recorded material.

And he's saying he hears a difference between the recording that he plays from the MD and the same recording as uploaded and burned to a CD.

I don't know why this would happen, since it's the same file. Guitarfxr's explanation that it's different amps sounds most logical to me.

Another test would be to transfer the uploaded recording back onto another MD and see if the sound quality is somehow different from the original MD.

How about trying that, Jon?

Yes - just done that very thing. Havn't yet listened to the result. 'Will report back in the morning!

[Avrin]

I really love the name of the topic!

USB cable quality! Problem is that the cables supplied with our units really suck from the customer point of view. And they have these, err, additions, just to add to the fun. As was mentioned elsewhere, they DO make a good weapon in the hands of a trained person.

I am exclusively using the cable that came with my SONY DCR-TRV460E Digital8 video camera for all my HiMD units. The fun is that the cable is totally useless with the camera, but is really convenient with minidisc units. This cable is of really good quality. Never lost a single bit!

[Sparky191]

I've never had a problem with any USB cables cheap or otherwise. They either work or they don't.

[Strungup]

MDs record in 16-bit, not 24-bit. Can't be changed. It's in the chip.

About SonicStage and PCM: SonicStage doesn't compress those recordings. All it does is add and then (when you convert to .wav) remove its encryption.

What happens if you play the uploaded recording in My Library out of your computer through your hi-fi system?

therein lie the very thing I was pointing to . ThX for the reminder.

What Jon wants , is that he Has on MD some really good stuff ,that he recorded live (or got from someone) and wants to convert to CD

But to him the CD doesnt sound the same as the MD did...Right Jon?

after going thru SS the sound is muddied slightly and doesnt represent what he originally hears.

Question #1 :Jon, did these recordings come from and older MD ( possibly a earlier version of Atrac?)?

#2 : How does the MD sound when connected directly to your sound system ?

#3 : Compare the MD Connected to the sound system ,with the CD copied from SS What are the differences.?

The MD player is going to sound better because it is designed to work directly with ATRAC format.

I was reading another post , where I think it was Blue Raja mentioning that his files had been converted to a different bit rate

( Recorded in one bit rate ,and on import checked the WAV and it said a different bit rate.) a Lower bit rate if I remember . I will have to find that post.

Found it ....... http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?s=&am...st&p=119905

read down the next three in that line.

Jon we will help fix this dude. Or at least get the understanding of it.

Edited April 12, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[Sparky191]

....

Question #1 :Jon, did these recordings come from and older MD ( possibly a earlier version of Atrac?)?

The MD player is going to sound better because it is designed to work directly with ATRAC format.

I was reading another post , where I think it was Blue Raja mentioning that his files had been converted to a different bit rate

( Recorded in one bit rate ,and on import checked the WAV and it said a different bit rate.) a Lower bit rate if I remember . I will have to find that post.

Found it ....... ...

No offence but, all of that is completely misleading. Hes already said hes using PCM on a HiMD. Its nothing to do with ATRAC or older formats.

[Strungup]

No offence but, all of that is completely misleading. Hes already said hes using PCM on a HiMD. Its nothing to do with ATRAC or older formats.

That is what I was asking him , if it was ALL in PCM , or if it was a mixed bag.

[Sparky191]

I think the point is that some are better shielded to external interferences; & shorter cables shorting risk of possible occurrences of such interferences resulting in glitches. I have a few PC transferred MDs with some glitches. No such thing has ever happened to real time optical transfers (recording) I've done from my multi-CD drive deck. Of course for data transfer there's no alternative.

An MD portable with IRda port, that'd be fabulous!

Hes not describing data glitches. IMO.

Can you explain how you did a USB transfer, had glitches then optically transferred the same data without glitches using the same equipment.

[Sparky191]

I didn't mean necessarily the same data nor necessarily the same equipment, I just get statistically less glitches with real time optical recordings versus USB. Nearly all my audio MD's created through optical in don't have a single glitch. I can't say the same of my USB transferred ones.

Can we see the statistics? What do mean by a glitch?

[blockflute]

Yes - just done that very thing. Havn't yet listened to the result. 'Will report back in the morning!

Hmm . . Having listened very carefully A - -B - A etc That is : original live recording on HiMD, versus same original recording after transfer into SS and back from SS into HiMD. I also compared an original recording with that same recording after transfer thru SS into my PC and then back into SS and onto the same HiMD as the original! (Got that? sounds much more complicated than it really was). The differences here were marginal. Of course there should have been no differences but I think there are. However I would not be making a fuss about them. Whereas the CD copied from the same WAV files is dictinctly less good so - contrary to earlier belief I now have to look at the transfer from WAV to EAC and burner.

Thanks to all who have contributed to this topic. I feel I am now making progress.

Jon

[A440]

I now have to look at the transfer from WAV to EAC and burner.

Jon

I doubt it's the transfer. I would be shocked if EAC degrades files--there would have been a big geek outcry long ago. You should easily be able to find another free burning program, though--iTunes if you want.

I think the difference is in the playback equipment. Try one more test:

Hook up the MD to the computer and play back the file on the disc through the computer (with decent headphones) with SonicStage.

Then play back the CD from the CD drive with SonicStage.

Neither is going to sound great since you're dealing with the computer soundcard, but at least it's the same audio playback. However, there's still the difference in how the data is read off the discs. I don't know where the Digital-to-Analog conversion stage is--in the computer with the data, or in the MD unit/CD burner.

[Sparky191]

So in summary this is what jonfinlayson has tried. Excuse my attempt to clarify and simplify

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1) original live recording on HiMD, vs original recording transfer to PC and back to HiMD.

2) an original recording vs same recording after transfer to my PC and back to HiMD. (I'm ignoring the transfer in and out of SS).

Result = "The differences here were marginal...I would not be making a fuss about them"

IMO since all (1& 2) of this is done digitally there should be no difference at all. Keep the original recording on one MD but transfer the copy from the PC back to a second disk. Label them Original/Copy etc. Then get someone to swap them while you do a blind ABX test. See how many times out of 10 you can pick the original. As people have difficulty picking between PCM and 320kps I would be surprise if you can here the difference between PCM vs PCM. If you can then maybe there is a fault in your equipment. There is no generation loss with digital data.

Lets look at the 2nd part of that test

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

3) The CD made from the original recording is dictinctly poorer

"contrary to earlier belief I now have to look at the transfer from WAV to EAC and burner"

Ok if you make a CD copy of a original commercial CD and the copy is sounds the same, (you said this earlier) then theres nothing wrong with WAV > EAC> CD. It exactly the same software and hardware. When you copy a CD on the same CD drive it makes a WAV copy from which it creates the CD copy. Then it deletes the WAV.

4) I suggested this test earlier. Take an original commercial CD, make a copy of it as PCM on a HiMD. Now listen to the the HiMD on the HiMD and CD on the CD player Its exactly the same data but which do you prefer?