MZ-RH1 question re old MDs

[Leandro]

Hi folks

I'm a big fan of Minidisc because of their durability, editing facilities and ease of use. These little discs have a charisma about them too that CDs completely lack. The disadvantages are the mechanical noises that the older MD decks in particular make, and the problems making backups of minidiscs.

Now of course, I hear about the MZ-RH1 and I'm excited. At last, here is a machine that will convert music on MDs to WAV for storage on a PC or CD-R's. However, I have some questions regarding this player:

I have some old 74 minute minidiscs from a few years back full of music taken from old vinyl records. I recorded onto MD in mono to get more than 2 hours playing time from each disc. However, will the fact that these recordings are in mono be a hindrance in converting them to WAV files? Is the MZ-RH1 fully compatible with those old 74 minute minidiscs from nearly 10 years ago?

Secondly, how noisy is the MZ-RH1? I've got an old portable MD player by sony called the MZ-R55, and it can make a hell of a racket. Are the more recent MD players a bit quieter?

I have read on this forum the about problems using SonicStage. Those that use it, tell me -can you hear a difference in the sound quality of the WAV file made from an MD recording? Also, is it possible when transferring music from a minidisc to a PC to corrupt the information on the minidisc and damage the recording?

I have been reading up on the MD-RH1 a bit, but some of the information is quite dense and I'm not certain of the answers. I just want to make sure, so I thought I'd ask those that use it.

Ta for reading. MD forever!

[bobt]

The new versions of SS, (3.4 and up) are quite easy to work with, and provided you don't edit your material before you upload it you shouldn't have any problems. My NH1's and NH-600 are definitely quieter than my 707.

Welcome, and enjoy,

Bob

[Leandro]

The new versions of SS, (3.4 and up) are quite easy to work with, and provided you don't edit your material before you upload it you shouldn't have any problems. My NH1's and NH-600 are definitely quieter than my 707.

Welcome, and enjoy,

Bob

When you talk about editing material, do you mean deleting tracks from an MD to make more space? Because I've done that one most of my discs at one time or another. I admit to removing a few seconds from the end of one track on one of my MDs. Would that make it imposssible to transfer to WAV?

[raintheory]

When you talk about editing material, do you mean deleting tracks from an MD to make more space? Because I've done that one most of my discs at one time or another. I admit to removing a few seconds from the end of one track on one of my MDs. Would that make it imposssible to transfer to WAV?

You should be fine with uploading these. I uploaded 30+ old discs (from up to 12 years ago) with no problems. Many had been extensively edited, so that shoulndt be an issue with these older discs.

[Leandro]

You should be fine with uploading these. I uploaded 30+ old discs (from up to 12 years ago) with no problems. Many had been extensively edited, so that shoulndt be an issue with these older discs.

Thanks for that - you've sold me on the idea of getting one now.

I've got another question though (groan), about the RH1, so I might as well ask it here:

Say for example I transfer an old MD with 20 songs on it to my PC as a WAV file. A few weeks later I have an accident and the original MD is destroyed. I want to get the WAV file back on to a minidisc again. When I transfer it back, will there be a significant loss in quality? And also, will the individual tracks still be properly divided, or will it transfer as one huge 76 minute track?

Thanks again, your advice so far has been very useful.

[Strungup]

Thanks for that - you've sold me on the idea of getting one now.

I've got another question though (groan), about the RH1, so I might as well ask it here:

Say for example I transfer an old MD with 20 songs on it to my PC as a WAV file. A few weeks later I have an accident and the original MD is destroyed. I want to get the WAV file back on to a minidisc again. When I transfer it back, will there be a significant loss in quality? And also, will the individual tracks still be properly divided, or will it transfer as one huge 76 minute track?

Thanks again, your advice so far has been very useful.

If you have them as wave files just go ahead and burn them to an Audio CD then , in worst case , you just copy them back onto MD from the CD Player

using an Optical cable

[raintheory]

Thanks for that - you've sold me on the idea of getting one now.

I've got another question though (groan), about the RH1, so I might as well ask it here:

Say for example I transfer an old MD with 20 songs on it to my PC as a WAV file. A few weeks later I have an accident and the original MD is destroyed. I want to get the WAV file back on to a minidisc again. When I transfer it back, will there be a significant loss in quality? And also, will the individual tracks still be properly divided, or will it transfer as one huge 76 minute track?

Thanks again, your advice so far has been very useful.

The track breaks will remain consistent, and the resulting loss of quality will be negligible most likely, and probably not noticeable. The quality loss will be due to the SP > WAV > SP conversion.

Edited July 1, 2007 by raintheory

[bobt]

Once you have it on the puter you can add breaks if neccesary, rename etc, no problems, then yu can either burn and use simpleburner, or use SS to put them back on MD

Bob

[kino170878]

I have some old 74 minute minidiscs from a few years back full of music taken from old vinyl records. I recorded onto MD in mono to get more than 2 hours playing time from each disc. However, will the fact that these recordings are in mono be a hindrance in converting them to WAV files? Is the MZ-RH1 fully compatible with those old 74 minute minidiscs from nearly 10 years ago?

Interesting. When you recorded the (stereo?) vinyl onto minidisc in mono, how did you find the resulting sound? Sometimes there is relatively little stereo separation to begin with in the original file, so recording in mono makes more sense. I have also found that recording mono usually makes the sound more stable and louder, although at times a few tracks did sound kind of flat.

Regarding the Rh-1, mono SP recordings are uploaded in either WAV or Hi-SP as stereo - mono doesn't exist in the atrac3 or atrac3plus format as I understand it. There is also no way to get SP back on the discs, which sucks. I do have the MDS-W1 however which can duplicate SP discs with no loss in quality.

Edited July 2, 2007 by kino170878

[Leandro]

Interesting. When you recorded the (stereo?) vinyl onto minidisc in mono, how did you find the resulting sound? Sometimes there is relatively little stereo separation to begin with in the original file, so recording in mono makes more sense. I have also found that recording mono usually makes the sound more stable and louder, although at times a few tracks did sound kind of flat.

Regarding the Rh-1, mono SP recordings are uploaded in either WAV or Hi-SP as stereo - mono doesn't exist in the atrac3 or atrac3plus format as I understand it. There is also no way to get SP back on the discs, which sucks. I do have the MDS-W1 however which can duplicate SP discs with no loss in quality.

Seriously? You can duplicate SP discs with no degradation? But surely when you transfer from one MD to the next using the MDS-W1, it goes through another ATRAC compression algorithm. Does it actually copy the sound without putting it through ATRAC again?

Edited July 2, 2007 by Leandro

[garcou]

Seriously? You can duplicate SP discs with no degradation? But surely when you transfer from one MD to the next using the MDS-W1, it goes through another ATRAC compression algorithm. Does it actually copy the sound without putting it through ATRAC again?

Yes it does !! in disc->disc mode at 4x speed! I've tested it with my mds-W1 : you can make 100 generation copy of the same track without any degradation.(because only digital files are copied without reencoding)

[kino170878]

Seriously? You can duplicate SP discs with no degradation? But surely when you transfer from one MD to the next using the MDS-W1, it goes through another ATRAC compression algorithm. Does it actually copy the sound without putting it through ATRAC again?

The MDS-W1 takes the raw atrac data and 'moves' it to the other md deck. The copy on the original deck is then deleted, but via a three button push in service mode the original is left unaltered. Discs are also defragmented by this procedure.

I would still like to know your opinions on the mono sound from your vinyls. Do you notice any significant difference in the recordings?

[BIGHMW]

The MDS-W1 takes the raw atrac data and 'moves' it to the other md deck. The copy on the original deck is then deleted, but via a three button push in service mode the original is left unaltered. Discs are also defragmented by this procedure.

I would still like to know your opinions on the mono sound from your vinyls. Do you notice any significant difference in the recordings?

That is also what worries me about getting the MZ-RH1, that is, if I transfer the tracks from my master MD to my PC, I am worried that the music on my original MD will be deleted and it will become blank and I will lose my masters that took me years to put together.

[bobt]

That is also what worries me about getting the MZ-RH1, that is, if I transfer the tracks from my master MD to my PC, I am worried that the music on my original MD will be deleted and it will become blank and I will lose my masters that took me years to put together.

There is an option on SS 3.4 and up that asks if you want to delete or not, so you are safe, you can have the best of both worlds. As well there are no more limitations on how many times you can upload.

Bob

[THIS SUCKS]

the upload for old md's can be done with the write protect tab set to protect. you only need to set it to write for hi-md uploads!

[BIGHMW]

There is an option on SS 3.4 and up that asks if you want to delete or not, so you are safe, you can have the best of both worlds. As well there are no more limitations on how many times you can upload.

Bob

the upload for old md's can be done with the write protect tab set to protect. you only need to set it to write for hi-md uploads!

Thanks for the info, I just a half-hour ago got the MZ-RH1 from B&H Photo & Video http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4415...3_Minidisc.html and as a matter of fact (and for less then the price of one on eBay, as much as a whopping $329.00 not including inferior UPS Ground shipping), the price was so low (only $299.95!!!) that I was able to upgrade to UPS 2 Day Air, it should be in by Friday!!!

[Leandro]

The MDS-W1 takes the raw atrac data and 'moves' it to the other md deck. The copy on the original deck is then deleted, but via a three button push in service mode the original is left unaltered. Discs are also defragmented by this procedure.

I would still like to know your opinions on the mono sound from your vinyls. Do you notice any significant difference in the recordings?

I have copied many minidiscs worth of vinyl in mono, and I can honestly say that I have never found the result to be negative to the music. I would actually go as far to say that with vinyl, it makes rock and roll music in particular sound better if anything. It seems to blend the sound together, and with 60s music (my favourite) this makes a real difference. The rest of the time I can't tell the difference anyway. The same can't be said for music after about 1984 on CD though: it sometimes sounds better and sometimes doesn't. Overall though, if pushed, I go for mono.

When I found out that you could do minidisc recordings in mono, that was the clincher for me, and I've never regretted buying my first MD player in 2000. It still works

And now I'd like to ask you a question

The "three button push" in service mode that you mention regarding the MDS-W1: is this an easy thing to do, and is it possible on all MDS-W1 machines? Bloody hell, that means I could make ten perfect copies of an old minidisc.

Edited July 3, 2007 by Leandro

[kino170878]

I have copied many minidiscs worth of vinyl in mono, and I can honestly say that I have never found the result to be negative to the music. I would actually go as far to say that with vinyl, it makes rock and roll music in particular sound better if anything. It seems to blend the sound together, and with 60s music (my favourite) this makes a real difference. The rest of the time I can't tell the difference anyway. The same can't be said for music after about 1984 on CD though: it sometimes sounds better and sometimes doesn't. Overall though, if pushed, I go for mono.

When I found out that you could do minidisc recordings in mono, that was the clincher for me, and I've never regretted buying my first MD player in 2000. It still works

And now I'd like to ask you a question

The "three button push" in service mode that you mention regarding the MDS-W1: is this an easy thing to do, and is it possible on all MDS-W1 machines? Bloody hell, that means I could make ten perfect copies of an old minidisc.

In the service manual, it mentions that if you press three buttons simultaneously the unit enters service mode. Leave the deck for a few seconds and it ejects the disc. Voila, the TOC never gets written. But the MDS-W1 is not made anymore, you could try ebay (that's where I got mine). There was one for sale just about 2 weeks ago in the UK, the seller was asking for £150 and nobody placed a bid. At that price I would have bought it but funds are tight at the moment. If you want, I could contact the seller on your behalf.

And thanks for your insights on mono. It was a topic which I was debating for a long time when I initially began recording.

[Leandro]

In the service manual, it mentions that if you press three buttons simultaneously the unit enters service mode. Leave the deck for a few seconds and it ejects the disc. Voila, the TOC never gets written. But the MDS-W1 is not made anymore, you could try ebay (that's where I got mine). There was one for sale just about 2 weeks ago in the UK, the seller was asking for £150 and nobody placed a bid. At that price I would have bought it but funds are tight at the moment. If you want, I could contact the seller on your behalf.

And thanks for your insights on mono. It was a topic which I was debating for a long time when I initially began recording.

I'm tempted to go for that MDS-W1, but as with you, the money situation at the moment doesn't allow it. I'm going to keep an eye on that in the future though.

For future reference, what are the three buttons you press to make it go into service mode?

[kino170878]

Regarding the service mode button press for the MDS-W1, I found this thread: "Remove SCMS from ES MDS-JA333ES" here on this site from a member by the name of 'flippe' (Felix).

"There is an alternative solution. What you need is a - hard to find - second hand Sony MDS-W1 double deck. I use my own MDS-W1 to duplicate, rearrange and defragment my minidiscs.

These operations are done in the ATRAC domain, at high speed (4x), without loosing any bit. SCMS bits are copied along with the tracks, regardless of their values. The procedure is the following:

1 - Insert your recorded source disc in A and your empty target disc in B. Both discs must be writable.

2 - Move all or selected tracks from disc A to disc B with the "All Move" or "1Tr Move" functions.

3 - Eject disc B. This is your defragmented copy.

4 - Enter the service mode as described in the Service Manual, and leave it. Disc A is ejected without writing the TOC, restoring the tracks which have been deleted by the "Move" operation.

Disc A is left unmodified - the deck actually never writes on it. Disc B is a perfect clone of disc A (or a clone of a subset). I backup all my minidiscs with this procedure."

I worked out exactly what to do from this post. After ejecting disc B (after moving the tracks or entire disc from disc A), and before you eject disc A, you have to enter service mode. On page 7 of the pdf service manual for the W1, press the rewind button on deck B while pressing the OUTPUT (deck A) and CLEAR (deck A) buttons together. Rotate the AMS knob to display "(Service)", then press the YES button. Now you can eject disc A. To exit service mode press the MD SYNC button.

I just tried it again now. It's almost like magic

Edited July 5, 2007 by kino170878

[Leandro]

Regarding the service mode button press for the MDS-W1, I found this thread: "Remove SCMS from ES MDS-JA333ES" here on this site from a member by the name of 'flippe' (Felix).

"There is an alternative solution. What you need is a - hard to find - second hand Sony MDS-W1 double deck. I use my own MDS-W1 to duplicate, rearrange and defragment my minidiscs.

These operations are done in the ATRAC domain, at high speed (4x), without loosing any bit. SCMS bits are copied along with the tracks, regardless of their values. The procedure is the following:

1 - Insert your recorded source disc in A and your empty target disc in B. Both discs must be writable.

2 - Move all or selected tracks from disc A to disc B with the "All Move" or "1Tr Move" functions.

3 - Eject disc B. This is your defragmented copy.

4 - Enter the service mode as described in the Service Manual, and leave it. Disc A is ejected without writing the TOC, restoring the tracks which have been deleted by the "Move" operation.

Disc A is left unmodified - the deck actually never writes on it. Disc B is a perfect clone of disc A (or a clone of a subset). I backup all my minidiscs with this procedure."

I worked out exactly what to do from this post. After ejecting disc B (after moving the tracks or entire disc from disc A), and before you eject disc A, you have to enter service mode. On page 7 of the pdf service manual for the W1, press the rewind button on deck B while pressing the OUTPUT (deck A) and CLEAR (deck A) buttons together. Rotate the AMS knob to display "(Service)", then press the YES button. Now you can eject disc A. To exit service mode press the MD SYNC button.

I just tried it again now. It's almost like magic

That does actually sound pretty easy - and enticing