Avrin Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 (edited) Has anyone else noticed that, if you remove the LIP-4WM from a European MZ-RH1, put it into an MZ-NH3D, discharge it completely, fully charge it, and put it back into the MZ-RH1, it lasts about 4 hours longer (playing Hi-SP from 1 Gb discs)?Looks like the European (not sure about other models) MZ-RH1 is seriously misadjusted in its power circuitry. So it doesn't fully charge the battery, and doesn't even discharge it completely (a battery considered empty by a European MZ-RH1 is still able to power an MZ-NH3D for quite some time). Edited September 24, 2008 by Avrin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 I don't have a second machine with LIP-4WM, but what you say makes perfect sense. My guess is that they were forced to compromise to allow charging to take place via USB as well as "from the wall" and in some sense there had to be some limiter placed to make that safe. The NH3D appears to take power but not **charge** via USB, correct?Help me out someone who has USB knowledge....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avrin Posted September 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 The NH3D charges from its 6V input only.I am not sure that the RH1 doesn't fully charge its battery for safety reasons - Li-Ion batteries are quite safe to charge. USB voltage and current are enough to fully charge a LIP-4WM.The fact that it doesn't discharge it completely, and the fact that it doesn't "see" a batery fully discharged by an NH3D indicate misadjustments, IMHO.It would be interesting to compare the battery life of a European RH1 (about 14 hours when playing Hi-SP from 1 Gb discs) to that of a Japanese one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 But if it takes 6V to get fully charged, it's probably not safe to put 6V on the USB bus, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avrin Posted September 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 (edited) The 6V circuit is used just to power the unit (has anyone ever told you that an E10, after its built-in battery is dead, may be fed by 3V DC forever?). The charging circuitry is separate from all this.Looking at their documentation, we see that both the RH1 and the NH3D are supposed to play Hi-SP from a 1Gb disc for 15.5 hours. But instead we see, that an RH1 plays for about 14 hours, and an NH3D may actually play for up to 20 hours.And it only takes a sufficient current pattern to fully charge a LIP-4WM. The actual voltage is lower than 4V. Edited September 25, 2008 by Avrin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Agree. But if you need 6V to fully charge a 3V battery (as it seems) then maybe you cannot do it via USB. And the RH1 can only charge via USB. Whereas the NH3D goes direct to the charging circuit. Makes sense to me, but what do I know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1kyle Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Agree. But if you need 6V to fully charge a 3V battery (as it seems) then maybe you cannot do it via USB. And the RH1 can only charge via USB. Whereas the NH3D goes direct to the charging circuit. Makes sense to me, but what do I know?I charge my RH1 using a "Japanese" motorola RAZR USB phone charger. No probs with this whatsoever. Maybe the SONY chargers don't work properly --can't say as I don't use the standard chargers.Cheers-K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Do you get longer charge times (sorry I mean discharge times) as a result? I have a GPS in my car which has a cigaretter-lighter powersupply that delivers USB charging for the GPS - and this same PS point blank refuses to charge my NH700, or the RH1. In fact neither machine will even come on (weird!) plugged into that powersupply. What gives? I can't tell you the rating as I hid it behind the console and I would have to unscrew everything again to look.The Sony cigaretter lighter charger (a different one) I have for using MD in my car will charge the earlier, non-USB models (eg NF810) and it is rated at 3.0V 1000mA.Another point to note: when I have my "universal" powersupply (bought from the drugstore) set to 4.5V, it won't charge the 3V machines same as above. So it's not necessarily true that too much voltage will lead to better charging. It often just cuts off and won't work at all.Maybe you can enlighten me as to what is happening in all of these different cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strungup Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Do you get longer charge times (sorry I mean discharge times) as a result? I have a GPS in my car which has a cigaretter-lighter powersupply that delivers USB charging for the GPS - and this same PS point blank refuses to charge my NH700, or the RH1. In fact neither machine will even come on (weird!) plugged into that powersupply. What gives? I can't tell you the rating as I hid it behind the console and I would have to unscrew everything again to look.The Sony cigaretter lighter charger (a different one) I have for using MD in my car will charge the earlier, non-USB models (eg NF810) and it is rated at 3.0V 1000mA.Another point to note: when I have my "universal" powersupply (bought from the drugstore) set to 4.5V, it won't charge the 3V machines same as above. So it's not necessarily true that too much voltage will lead to better charging. It often just cuts off and won't work at all.Maybe you can enlighten me as to what is happening in all of these different cases.That is because there need to be a 20 -27 kohm resistance between pins 2 and 3 of the USB for the RH1 to recognize the supply . This was covered in another thread about powering the RH1 , a lot of USB supplies only supply the Plus/Minus to pins 1 and 4 and no connections at 2/3 so the RH1 doesn't recognize them . http://pinouts.ru/SerialPortsCables/usb_cable_pinout.shtml You can make a cable that has a 27 kohm resistor between 2/3 , and then plug into that PS in your car . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted September 26, 2008 Report Share Posted September 26, 2008 Aha! Some dumb questions:1. Will that 27K affect other things that might plug into the PS? 2. Why does this stop the Sony from working at all when plugged in? I couldn't even get either unit to play anything.3. Does this mean that the GPS already has a 27K inside it somehow, or is this just a Sony thing?Assuming the answer to #1 is YES, can you tell me what parts I am looking for to make an extension cable (or perhaps if some kind manufacturer already made one) with the resistor embedded in it.Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strungup Posted September 26, 2008 Report Share Posted September 26, 2008 Aha! Some dumb questions:1. Will that 27K affect other things that might plug into the PS? 2. Why does this stop the Sony from working at all when plugged in? I couldn't even get either unit to play anything.3. Does this mean that the GPS already has a 27K inside it somehow, or is this just a Sony thing?Assuming the answer to #1 is YES, can you tell me what parts I am looking for to make an extension cable (or perhaps if some kind manufacturer already made one) with the resistor embedded in it.Thanksthe 27 would be in the Cable , and used only for the RH1 #2 , Without the 27 , the SONY doesnt recognize the supply , so it doesnt turn on the circuit and instead goes into a safety mode#3 if the GPS charger had the 27 , it would work with the SONY , if your speaking of the GPS itself , It may not NEED that , it is a Circuit design issue. At #1 , a standard USB cable , cut off one end with enough cable to put it back together afterwards , follow the chart linked in the previous posttake the wires that go to the end the plugs into the RH1 , wires 2/3 get wired to a 27 Kohm resistor, and taped over . then wires 1/4 get put back together , seal the whole thing , plug it in and see if it works ( the end the goes to the power supply will not need 2/3 so just clip those back and seal them) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted September 26, 2008 Report Share Posted September 26, 2008 Great. So the GPS would still work even with the 27K resistor there? Forgive me for being so stupid..... The one thing I don't want to do is mess up a working piece of equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avrin Posted October 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 But if you need 6V to fully charge a 3V battery (as it seems) then maybe you cannot do it via USB.The more I look at this problem, the more I think that you are right. Remember the RH[9]10 that could only charge its gumstick battery to 80% via USB (and that from a 'puter only). And it is not about voltage - it is about current. An RH[9]10 charges its battery to 80% via USB @ 5V, but charges it fully via its adapter @ 3V. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 Well sure, there are going to be current limitations on the real USB bus too. The chargers must deliver more current (I=V/R?). I don't know the specifics. Of course you know much better than I do that if you have charger that delivers X volts nominally in one situation that with less or more load on it that it may deliver X+1 or (more usually) X-1 volts or so.You might be able to force a USB bus to 6V but something will probably blow. I am still undecided whether to hack my working GPS charger.I did something else and tried to run the NH700 off the RH1's charger, no joy at all. Not charge, you understand, just power. Please see if you can explain *that* to my poor addled brain.CheersStephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strungup Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 You know what something just kliked .....My sony USB power supply is 1 amp @ 5 volts , constant and regulated . and it takes much longer to charge than with the USB supply from my Filco USB out Lithium Battery pack .The Power supply for my Filco is 5 volts , but it is a whopping 2200 ma output ,2.2 amps . I have noticed that the RH1 battery lasts a bit longer when charged on the Filco supply ( quite a bit and HOLds it charge longer) , I dont know why I didnt pay attention to that . The discussion point between you and Avrin sorta slapped me ( The Russian Always notices the odd detail............. Proof again he is a SPY , LOL ) just teasin . The RH1 battery is rated 370 ma 80 % of 370 is 296 , the Sony power supply is 1 amp steady out ( I have measured it ) , and my Filco is 2 amps , then , ..... there must be a USB shunt protection circuit that isnt allowing the full power to come thru unless it senses that more power is there current wise . Reason for thinking this , Most USB ports are between 100 - max 500 ma's , if you drain more than that the USB prot will shut down to protect itself ( I have seen this on several computers,including my Macbook Pro , a warning pops up and tells me it is shutting down that port . ) Then by that measure , as that the RH1 is a Computer interface device , it MUST meet the ratings requirements by law . so it will only draw a certain portion of energy according to what it senses .secondly , USB from computer to RH1 , charging takes much longer , leave it overnight . Sony USB adapter to RH1 , 3 hours to max it , and it just doesnt quite seem to Hold its charge as long as when I use the Filco Filco USB to RH1 .... 2 hours , and I can take it off and leave it in its case all week take it out pop a disc in and I have FULL battery meter , and stays that way for at least an 2 hours playing before it drops one bar. I dont know why I wasnt paying attention to that before Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strungup Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 That is interesting...How about including the Solio in your comparisons, to see how that performs...I will have to do that , do an actual Usage /Time comparison ,....... That might take a while eh ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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