Unexpected sound degradation

[sfbp]

I am still trying to track this down. But yesterday I noticed some quite bad sounding tracks when playing them back on "good" stereo system. They may have originally been MP3 and transcoded to ATRAC, I'm not sure.

But I happened to notice that they had a file extension of .OMA meaning that they had been un-DRMed.

Is it remotely possible that removing DRM happens to reduce the quality of sound? I'm inclined to think it's more to do with the MP3 origin, but I am practically certain they sounded ok before running the file conversion utility that strips DRM.

Comments welcomed - I'm probably (just) paranoid.

[pata2001]

Transcoding reduces quality, DRM or not. You're transcoding MP3 to Atrac, that process is the one that reduces quality. Most methods of removing DRM involves transcoding, thus reducing quality.

[sfbp]

As I said, I am still trying to trace this. But what I intended by my words is that *before* DRM removal the sound was fine (regardless of origin) but afterwards it sounded bad. I am not certain about the MP3 part, yet.

Why would the conversion utility alter any MP3 files? I ended up with .OMA, so doesn't that mean the files were originally .oma?

Anyway we can both be right; if so, then this should be a severe warning to others.

[MDane]

As I said, I am still trying to trace this. But what I intended by my words is that *before* DRM removal the sound was fine (regardless of origin) but afterwards it sounded bad. I am not certain about the MP3 part, yet.

Why would the conversion utility alter any MP3 files? I ended up with .OMA, so doesn't that mean the files were originally .oma?

Anyway we can both be right; if so, then this should be a severe warning to others.

It is possible that the reason the files were OMA is that there was a (bitrate) conversion through the SS software (maybe by accident?). In other words, if you will notice, when one changes (converts) bitrates within the SS program, the files will automatically become OMA from oma because the "add copy protection" box is defaulted to be unchecked, therefore unintentionally making files non-DRM.

This is just a theory, but it would explain the sound quality loss. However, when running the standard file conversion tool, the conversion is so quick that it would be impossible for the software to mess with the files overall...unless there is some flag Sony built in just to be mean...but that is way too conspiritorial, even for me, lol.

[Strungup]

..unless there is some flag Sony built in just to be mean...but that is way too conspiritorial, even for me, lol.

You Obviously Dont really know SONYYYYYY

[MDane]

You Obviously Dont really know SONYYYYYY

LOL...well I do know about: no optical out on most MD decks, no true SP support on SS, dropping support on older products once a new version is out, etc. But I figure that designing SS to intentionally mess up files once DRM was removed is a little lower than they would stoop...but ya' never know. I hope not, as I remove DRM about once a month on all uploads (so some have been through the process several times). Maybe I will do some back to back comparisons, and see if there is anything to this.

[sfbp]

Panic over.

I finally figured out what had happened. About a month ago, y'all heard from me when I got adventurous with SonicStage and ended up frying the digital keys, registry and so on, losing the previous week's .oma files. During the recovery from this, I ended up looking for some files, and owing to the way that Sonic stage puts ALL wave files in the same directory, I never could find the wave files for three tracks I was interested in (very rare for me, they were all downloaded from the net, no DRM, but no other place I could find these rare sounds). Turns out they were there all along.

Lacking the .WAV files I went ahead and recreated an SP minidisc with these three tracks on (only), using Sonic Stage. Here's where I got caught. I discovered tonight in the File Properties of each of them, an "optimized file" of ATRAC3 at 128kbps (LP2). I believe somehow this got left around when I did transfer either to the SP or more likely when I did transfer to LP2 of a whole bunch of stuff. Because these sounds were originally 128K (or worse) MP3, the LP2 version of them was terrible - the transcoding simply didn't work right. I also think that sometimes SS picks the "wrong" file - others may have more and better knowledge on this point.

We have already explored how SS makes "fake" SP by transcoding to LP2 and then sending that over the USB. Well, here it does it and then pads it back out to SP on the MD. The result is atrocious!!!!!!!!!

I deleted the LP2 files anyway, copied the .OMA files (no, there was no problem there) by playing them from PC optical out into deck optical in, back to an SP minidisc, and presto! the sound is acceptable again. (Being on the edge of what was acceptable, makes the degradation much more obvious since the sound now crosses the threshold of acceptability).

So the moral of this story is: Don't Use SonicStage To Create SP disks. Especially from relatively low bitrate sources.

Stephen

[MDane]

Panic over.I finally figured out what had happened. About a month ago, y'all heard from me when I got adventurous with SonicStage and ended up frying the digital keys, registry and so on, losing the previous week's .oma files. During the recovery from this, I ended up looking for some files, and owing to the way that Sonic stage puts ALL wave files in the same directory, I never could find the wave files for three tracks I was interested in (very rare for me, they were all downloaded from the net, no DRM, but no other place I could find these rare sounds). Turns out they were there all along. Lacking the .WAV files I went ahead and recreated an SP minidisc with these three tracks on (only), using Sonic Stage. Here's where I got caught. I discovered tonight in the File Properties of each of them, an "optimized file" of ATRAC3 at 128kbps (LP2). I believe somehow this got left around when I did transfer either to the SP or more likely when I did transfer to LP2 of a whole bunch of stuff. Because these sounds were originally 128K (or worse) MP3, the LP2 version of them was terrible - the transcoding simply didn't work right. I also think that sometimes SS picks the "wrong" file - others may have more and better knowledge on this point.

We have already explored how SS makes "fake" SP by transcoding to LP2 and then sending that over the USB. Well, here it does it and then pads it back out to SP on the MD. The result is atrocious!!!!!!!!!I deleted the LP2 files anyway, copied the .OMA files (no, there was no problem there) by playing them from PC optical out into deck optical in, back to an SP minidisc, and presto! the sound is acceptable again. (Being on the edge of what was acceptable, makes the degradation much more obvious since the sound now crosses the threshold of acceptability). So the moral of this story is: Don't Use SonicStage To Create SP disks. Especially from relatively low bitrate sources.

Hmmm, that's kinda what I figured on my last post, yet a slightly different version of it. FWIW, in SS, you can go into the properties and choose one of the files (if there are two versions), delete the optimized one, and change the path to the other (if necessary). However, you may not be able to use the old (non-optimized) .oma files anymore (maybe you were saying that above, I dunno).

Anyway, I agree that fake SP is crap, even if not in performance, totally in principle. Not only does it take whatever the original is, and convert it to "basic 132"...it's not even the real time Type-R LP2 that home decks do pretty well. In other words, even if the original file was WAV, at best the output would be "quick LP2"...that if I am not mistaken...even in those Sony sponsored tests did relatively poor. To make matters worse, I wonder if SS recompresses LP2 again during the fake SP transfers. If so that would be awful souding...yet the unknowing victim would be expecting first generation SP from LP2.

I have to speculate that in actuality, later SP encoding is so good (acoustically) that allowing straight computer/file transfers of SP would be something Sony is totally afraid of. Sure, they have recently submitted to WAV, MP3, and so on with SS 4.X, but maybe they are afraid of MD owners (like me) that have built up several hundred MD albums over the years...not to mention the fear of bulk MD file trading via SD cards, etc.

[sfbp]

I have to speculate that in actuality, later SP encoding is so good (acoustically) that allowing straight computer/file transfers of SP would be something Sony is totally afraid of. Sure, they have recently submitted to WAV, MP3, and so on with SS 4.X, but maybe they are afraid of MD owners (like me) that have built up several hundred MD albums over the years...not to mention the fear of bulk MD file trading via SD cards, etc.

Eggzactly.

Until I got an RH1 I survived for almost 5 years on recording to SP deck and uploading to 'puter via optical. Pretty well perfect CD's I got from that process. Took time, but I got to remove all the nasties from old recordings as I went.

There's some hint that SS did have SP downloading in it. Talk to Avrin

[MDane]

Eggzactly.

1. Until I got an RH1 I survived for almost 5 years on recording to SP deck and uploading to 'puter via optical. Pretty well perfect CD's I got from that process. Took time, but I got to remove all the nasties from old recordings as I went.

2. There's some hint that SS did have SP downloading in it. Talk to Avrin

1. I agree. I have similarly been using a home decks...starting with basic JE320's from the late 90's till recently for most recordings - upgrading to a JE440 about 4 years ago (with many in between, including two MD/CD decks). I just like the editing the home deck provides, with seems unmatched by a portable, or even software (for a while I had a MDS- PC3 too). I often still run live recordings and similar through SP because I can do S.F.E. in SP...as well as immaculate divides, seamless removal of commercials on radio recorded material, etc.

Now I (similarly) have an M200, so I am torn what direction to take next...but I am moving toward converting most of my SP to 256K (3+) for simplicity and getting a Sony Car deck with USB (to control any of my 3 E105/107's). However, the thought of making ATRAC CD's gives me a headache...and seems backwards at this point. I wish Sony made a true solid state car deck like everyone else does now...but as you know, they are scared to death of SD media (for obvious financial reasons). So I have to choose between going all MP3/AAC with a convenient SD / USB deck, or use one of the few select Sony car decks that support ATRAC to some extent (even though not on memory cards / flash drives). Uggghhh!

2. Elaborate if possible!

[MDane]

Get the Connects2 unilink CD/MD changer + dual RCA to Sony Walkman remote connector kit for in the car .

Are you speaking of one of these?

If so, I already have the equivalent for my Kenwood KMD-673R (RDS version of KMD-44). The problem with general RCA input (aux) adapters is that the deck doesn't control the flash player (of course) and only patches sound through. However, if Sony makes something that interfaces with their flash player and tricks the deck into thinking its a typical CD/MD changer...that would be awesome. Please advise...it would save me from buying a deck I don't need otherwise. In other words, I could run any vintage (Unilink) Sony car deck with my psyc flash players!

[MDane]

No, I was thinking of the interface made by British company Connects2, an adapter that fools the head unit into thinking that the (Hi-)MD Walkman that is connected to it is a CD/MD changer. Full control: volume, track/group skip, and track title display with all Hi-MD Walkman units except the RH1/M200 IIRC (I use my EH1 with it).

Dual RCA cables on one end, with a Sony Unilink CD/MD changer cable, a little interface box in between, and a Sony Walkman remote cable just like your default remote cable on the other end.

That's pretty neat...but would not help my scenario. I don't use my HI-MD unit (M200) outside of the home (due to its cost and delicate nature) yet use MZ-E105/107 (portable flash) because they play exactly the same things as the M200...but cost like $15-20 (each, I have 3) and is tiny and seemingly unbreakable - and is simply easier to use. It's only control port is USB...as it has the same USB connection as all other Sony MD/flash players, but just has a standard headphone jack, and no compatibility to inline remotes. If someone were to make an adapter using USB however, that would be perfect...and would make more sense because all Network/Net/Hi products use it.

However, in theory, I could buy a basic HI-MD unit and use it with that interface...but even if I got one @ say $40, and this interface at $50 (I have no idea what it would cost) I could have nearly bought a new CDX-410U for that, which would allow me to connect any USB Sony portable device into the front...even if I still don't like the idea of a CD player that would sit idle and only be a patch to my portable (waste not want not). Plus I am quite partial to my older 8500X and 673R car MD decks...the only reason I don't already have a new (USB slot) Sony head unit yet...even if I rarely use the MD section on them anymore.

[sfbp]

1. <snip>I am torn what direction to take next...but I am moving toward converting most of my SP to 256K (3+) for simplicity and getting a Sony Car deck with USB (to control any of my 3 E105/107's). However, the thought of making ATRAC CD's gives me a headache...and seems backwards at this point. I wish Sony made a true solid state car deck like everyone else does now...but as you know, they are scared to death of SD media (for obvious financial reasons). So I have to choose between going all MP3/AAC with a convenient SD / USB deck, or use one of the few select Sony car decks that support ATRAC to some extent (even though not on memory cards / flash drives). Uggghhh!

2. Elaborate if possible!

I actually wouldn't mind having a device that played Atrac CD's, especially as this would frustrate the car thieves that triggered (I will stay short of "forced me to take") my next step recently. I went the other way and bought a used MDX-66XLP, the only MDLP changer ever made, I think (certainly Sony's only one).

There are two ways to do this, and I opted for the first which is to buy an RF modulator with S-link. Sony has made several of these kits, such as the RM-X69RF (maybe some variants of the same basic model but I have seen at least 3 different remotes in pictures, and 2 different "displays" that the remote talks to, such as the XA-2 and RM-X85RF). There exists a package called the MDX-66XLPRF which is both changer and X85RF but you won't get this outside Japan, I think. You don't have to buy them as a pair, though. The sound produced by the RF modulator is fine, since the unit feeds directly into the antenna rather than broadcasting through the air.

For my car (a Dodge/Chrysler minivan) I had to get antennae adapters, since Chrysler designed their own incompatible antennae connectors, whereas Sony's RF unit is expecting the more standard ones, so this added another $40 to the cost. It fits under the passenger seat vertically without too much problem - it's very small, and in a sedan (saloon for the europeans) can go in any number of locations such as the trunk (boot), a nice long set of cables being included. The S-link has power so apart from the audio there is no need to wire power to the device, I'm sure this is standard with changers.

The second involves getting an interface adapter, which allows the existing head unit from Chrysler (there are lots of others but apparently all are incompatible with S-link) to talk to the changer directly. This costs about $80 from installer.com, and has the advantage that the sound is even better, since it goes straight into the Aux. The disadvantage is that the interface is different for every car, whereas I can rip the one I have out and put it in another vehicle. Additionally you don't get the nice remote display with MD track titles. Probably I could combine the two approaches if I wanted that.

Sure, I know this is yesterday's technology. But MDLP is good enough quality for the road, and (hopefully) MD's and changer not so attractive to thieves (unless they're reading this). Buying and installing a Sony head unit would work too, but the problem there is that I'd probably end up ripping it out before reselling the vehicle... whatapain!

As far as the SP download thing goes, it is pure speculation based on some snooping - my feeling is that either they never released the feature, or it was for a very early version of OMGJbox which either isn't available or won't work with current versions of Windows, and certainly not with current MD players. So probably not useful.

[kino170878]

No, I was thinking of the interface made by British company Connects2, an adapter that fools the head unit into thinking that the (Hi-)MD Walkman that is connected to it is a CD/MD changer. Full control: volume, track/group skip, and track title display with all Hi-MD Walkman units except the RH1/M200 IIRC (I use my EH1 with it).

Dual RCA cables on one end, with a Sony Unilink CD/MD changer cable, a little interface box in between, and a Sony Walkman remote cable just like your default remote cable on the other end.

This is interesting. I wonder can multiple portable MD players be connected through this setup? Since you can use multiple CD/MD changers with a Sony car head unit then perhaps it might be possible...

And that remote controller I've never seen before: is that part of the Connects2 / head unit package or do you have to buy it separately?

[sfbp]

This is interesting. I wonder can multiple portable MD players be connected through this setup? Since you can use multiple CD/MD changers with a Sony car head unit then perhaps it might be possible...

Almost certainly not. The product descriptions (I found about 3, the best and cheapest is alpine radio in the uk) all say that you cannot use a changer with this interface. IMHO this is only because you need to extend the S-link bus to another item, and there's probably no pass-through connector. If you had a device with such a pass-through connector you could probably daisy-chain the Connects2 device on the end of it.

[MDane]

Wow, we so jacked this guy's thread...and I guess I started the process, lol. Maybe the moderator should split this thread.

I went the other way and bought a used MDX-66XLP, the only MDLP changer ever made, I think (certainly Sony's only one).

Kenwood did make an in-dash (DIN) MDLP changer, but I agree that is the only Sony MDLP changer for the US.

Anyway, I had occasionally thought of getting a 66XLP a few years ago when they came out, but I ended up putting upgrading off, and stayed "old school SP" for many years (since the late 90's). But now that I listen to (MP3 based) podcasts / mix shows and also have a M200, and "decent" SS 4.2, it's time to change.

In the end, I would like to be MD free in car (yet use Atrac/Mp3), even if I continute to use standard MD to record from the radio, and HI-MD for live recordings/Music Choice. As of now, the closest thing I can see to fit my needs is to get one of the Sony car decks that have a "U" in the model #, and use my E107's to load Atrac data to the deck, and use my SD cards w. readers for all other (MP3, WAV, AAC) music.

Why must I use both? Well thanks to Sony, they will only play Atrac via a connected player or on Atrac disc (made with SS). In the end result, I still would have a clumsy (front) cable from the deck to the player, or a reader/flash drive sticking out. Otherwise I would have to burn Atrac discs and then store them. Additionally, I have read on Atraclife that these never seem to play right...and the whole reason I got into MD a decade ago is to not have to mess with CD's (in any way) in the car. It's never pretty with Sony.