Playback sound quality: RH1 vs RH10

[Sony_Fan]

Setting the equalizers on both units to: +3, 0, -1, 0, +1, +3, both units produce almost the same identical playback sound quality. Used some other Sony earphones and got a pretty good thumping bass response from both units. My friend really has no interest in keeping his RH10, I might just buy it off him.

[Abby Normal]

That's because, as far as I can tell, they are both identical except for the controls and the upload/download restrictions.

It's good that you've discovered that they have the thumping bass you've been craving.

Does this mean you're not phasing out of MD now?

[Sony_Fan]

That's because, as far as I can tell, they are both identical except for the controls and the upload/download restrictions.

It's good that you've discovered that they have the thumping bass you've been craving.

Does this mean you're not phasing out of MD now?

No, not completely. I have my DN430, M200 and RH1. I may buy the RH10 of my friend. He really does not want to keep it.

[KJ_Palmer]

Agree with 'bassiness' of the RH10 (and RH910) - I got rid of mine for just that reason. You should love it, Chris!

Edited July 26, 2009 by Barock

[Sony_Fan]

Agree with 'bassiness' of the RH10 (and RH910) - I got rid of mine for just that reason. You should love it, Chris!

If you don't like bass, you should buy an iPod.

[Sony_Fan]

I just bought my friend's RH10 for $200. Comes with everything except the AC wall charger that he can't find.

[Avrin]

Congratulations - it's a great unit! Its non-HD digital amp is ideal for classical music, and many other styles - much less dry and boring than the HD amp in the RH1. And its controls are the most convenient of all the units I've ever seen.

My first MD unit was an RH10. It was killed by an official service center. Last year I bought another one used, and it is currently my workhorse for portable listening and recording to SP via optical.

[Sony_Fan]

Congratulations - it's a great unit! Its non-HD digital amp is ideal for classical music, and many other styles - much less dry and boring than the HD amp in the RH1. And its controls are the most convenient of all the units I've ever seen.

My first MD unit was an RH10. It was killed by an official service center. Last year I bought another one used, and it is currently my workhorse for portable listening and recording to SP via optical.

How are you doing that? I changed the disc mode to MD and tried to change the recording mode to SP, but I keep getting an error. It won't go into SP recording mode. Only Hi-SP, Hi-LP and PCM.

[Avrin]

There's a service mode hack to enable SP recording for the RH10/910 at the cost of MP3 playback. But recording to LP2 and LP4 is not possible (at least I haven't found a way to enable it yet).

Edited July 26, 2009 by Avrin

[Sony_Fan]

There's a service mode hack to enable SP recording for the RH10/910. But recording to LP2 and LP4 is not possible (at least a haven't found a way to enable it yet).

Can you explain how to do this service mode hack to record in SP? Link maybe?

[Avrin]

There is a topic somewhere in these forums. But I don't advise going into service mode if you are not experienced enough. It is easy to destroy your unit from there.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Avrin

[Sony_Fan]

There is a topic somewhere in these forums. But I don't advise going into service mode if you are not experienced enough. It is easy to destroy your unit from there.

Ok, then I probably shouldn't mess it with it. I'll just use my RH1/M200 for SP recordings.

[Avrin]

And that's a good decision! The RH1 is actually more convenient for recording, since it remembers your settings. So you don't need to go through the "Set REC PAUSE"->"Disable SYNC REC"->"Set manual level 23"->"Enable SYNC REC"->"Start the CD" sequence each time you want to record a CD.

[Sony_Fan]

And that's a good decision! The RH1 is actually more convenient for recording, since it remembers your settings. So you don't need to go through the "Set REC PAUSE"->"Disable SYNC REC"->"Set manual level 23"->"Enable SYNC REC"->"Start the CD" sequence each time you want to record a CD.

Can you adjust the optical/digital input recording level, or only when doing analog input recording?

[Avrin]

Yes, you can adjust the level while recording via optical. Experiments show that on Hi-MD recorders (and probably many other SONY units as well) setting the level manually to 23 maintains the original CD level, and thus helps to avoid rounding errors caused by level changes.

[Sony_Fan]

Yes, you can adjust the level while recording via optical. Experiments show that on Hi-MD recorders (and probably many other SONY units as well) setting the level manually to 23 maintains the original CD level, and thus helps to avoid rounding errors caused by level changes.

You mean distortion? I'll try it with my RH1. Do you know how to do it on the RH10?

[Avrin]

Yes, rounding errors lead to [very little but still] distortion.

On both units you need to disable SYNC REC before setting the level to 23 (and then re-enable it to transfer trackmarks from the CD). After that the RH1 remembers the setting, but the RH10 reverts to Automatic level setting after you stop recording, so you need to repeat the process each time you record.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Avrin

[Sony_Fan]

Yes, rounding errors lead to [very little but still] distortion.

On both units you need to disable SYNC REC before setting the level to 23 (and then re-enable it to transfer trackmarks from the CD). After that the RH1 remembers the setting, but the RH10 reverts to Automatic level setting after you stop recording, so you need to repeat the process each time you record.

What's the default recording level? I assumed that leaving it on automatic level would adjust itself accordingly to prevent distortion.

[Sony_Fan]

I just tried changing the recording level on the RH10. It says, "CANNOT SET." Do I need to do a hack that I'm not qualified to do to change this?

[THIS SUCKS]

i didnt think you could set the record level on the digital input recordings?

[Avrin]

What's the default recording level? I assumed that leaving it on automatic level would adjust itself accordingly to prevent distortion.

Automatic level adjustment actually tends to create additional distortion. It's always better to record the original signal without changing its level.

I just tried changing the recording level on the RH10. It says, "CANNOT SET." Do I need to do a hack that I'm not qualified to do to change this?

You need to set the unit to REC PAUSE and disable SYNC REC before adjusting the level.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Avrin

[Sony_Fan]

Automatic level adjustment actually tends to create additional distortion. It's always better to record the original signal without changing its level.

You need to set the unit to REC PAUSE and disable SYNC REC before adjusting the level.

Okay, I was able to adjust the recording level on my M200 using optical cable and ATRAC SP, and I recorded Lady Gaga's "Just Dance" (yeah, i know) which is a loud song and I reduced the recording level down to 22. I played it back on my NetMD unit with the bass and treble turned up and it sounded great! No distortion, or I didn't notice any. I know you said that level 23 is suppose to be ideal, but it depends on how loud the original CD is. I have some other CDs that are softer and I would probably have to turn up the recording level, but not go into the "over" side.

[Avrin]

It's very easy. Level 23 is ideal for properly mastered CDs. And no CD can be louder than 0 dB.

Trouble is, you can't buy a properly mastered CD nowadays. 9 out of 10 currently produced CDs you buy will be overcompressed and clipped, and the remaining one will be simply overcompressed.

If a CD is mastered properly, level 23 will preserve as much quality as possible. But, for a clipped CD, setting level below 23 and recording to a lossy format may actually produce some sound improvement. This is due to the fact that lossy compression is not able to reproduce a clipped waveform perfectly. Some of parasite higher frequency components pertinent to clipping are filtered out, thus actually bringing the signal closer to what it should have been on a properly mastered CD. Same result can be achieved by using a digital low-pass filter. But you can never fully restore the distorted waveform of a modern CD to its original pre-mastered state. I.e., there is no way to make "Invincible" sound as Michael Jackson recorded it - you may only listen to what the marketing people gave you. And they want it even louder and louder with each new release. But, I'll say it again, no CD can be louder than 0 dB.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Avrin

[Kain_]

It's very easy. Level 23 is ideal for properly mastered CDs.

Avrin,

What about people recording MD from a CD source on a deck ? Which manual setting would be the most accurate for a good copy (on a Onkyo MD-133 for instance) via TOS Link ?

Regards.

Franck.

[Avrin]

Sadly, I've no idea about deck levels. But you can always find the proper level yourself. Use an audio editing program to generate a sinewave (say, 1 kHz) with the maximum possible amplitude (100% or 0 dB), burn the sinewave to an audio CD, and then use the CD to adjust the level of your MD deck. The maximum level value before you see the "OVER" indicator is the level you want to use.

I think that each deck should have a "pass-through" level (like 23 on SONY portables). And it would be a nice and useful project for forum members to determine those.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Avrin

[Sony_Fan]

Avrin,

What about people recording MD from a CD source on a deck ? Which manual setting would be the most accurate for a good copy (on a Onkyo MD-133 for instance) via TOS Link ?

Regards.

Franck.

I think Avrin is right, no matter what device you're using to record, keeping the recording level from going into the "OVER" area is probably the best way to record.

It's very easy. Level 23 is ideal for properly mastered CDs. And no CD can be louder than 0 dB.

Trouble is, you can't buy a properly mastered CD nowadays. 9 out of 10 currently produced CDs you buy will be overcompressed and clipped, and the remaining one will be simply overcompressed.

If a CD is mastered properly, level 23 will preserve as much quality as possible. But, for a clipped CD, setting level below 23 and recording to a lossy format may actually produce some sound improvement. This is due to the fact that lossy compression is not able to reproduce a clipped waveform perfectly. Some of parasite higher frequency components pertinent to clipping are filtered out, thus actually bringing the signal closer to what it should have been on a properly mastered CD. Same result can be achieved by using a digital low-pass filter. But you can never fully restore the distorted waveform of a modern CD to its original pre-mastered state. I.e., there is no way to make "Invincible" sound as Michael Jackson recorded it - you may only listen to what the marketing people gave you. And they want it even louder and louder with each new release. But, I'll say it again, no CD can be louder than 0 dB.

This is why sometimes I prefer to import CDs in MP3 format. I can then use MP3Gain to lower the volume of loud tracks, which usually eliminates clipping. Unfortunately, there is no ATRAC gain software to do the same.

[Kain_]

Many thanks for the tip I'll check this out !

Sadly, I've no idea about deck levels. But you can always find the proper level yourself. Use an audio editing program to generate a sinewave (say, 1 kHz) with the maximum possible amplitude (100% or 0 dB), burn the sinewave to an audio CD, and then use the CD to adjust the level of your MD deck. The maximum level value before you see the "OVER" indicator is the level you want to use.

I think that each deck should have a "pass-through" level (like 23 on SONY portables). And it would be a nice and useful project for forum members to determine those.

[Avrin]

This is why sometimes I prefer to import CDs in MP3 format. I can then use MP3Gain to lower the volume of loud tracks, which usually eliminates clipping. Unfortunately, there is no ATRAC gain software to do the same.

Importing to MP3 doesn't completely eliminate all effects of clipping, neither does it restore the original sound, but it can really make the recording sound better, since it softens the waveform edges, and recreates some of the original harmony.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Avrin

[Sony_Fan]

Importing to MP3 doesn't completely eliminate all effects of clipping, neither does it restore the original sound, but it can really make the recording sound better, since it softens the waveform edges, and recreates some of the original harmony.

Why has no one developed ATRAC gain software? I would, but I lack the knowledge to do so. But others, who are trying to figure out a way to create true SP on a PC, can develope ATRAC gain software.

[Avrin]

Such software is not needed for properly mastered CD. And won't help much with those improperly mastered. ATRAC preserves the waveform much better than MP3, thus it is less useful for fighting clipping.

[Kain_]

Is there a way to recognize a properly mastered CD wihtout listening to it, like a particular label or mention on the jewelcase, a website that list them ?

Such software is not needed for properly mastered CD. And won't help much with those improperly mastered. ATRAC preserves the waveform much better than MP3, thus it is less useful for fighting clipping.

[Sony_Fan]

Is there a way to recognize a properly mastered CD wihtout listening to it, like a particular label or mention on the jewelcase, a website that list them ?

I believe that Madonna's Immaculate Collection is properly mastered. It is also recorded in something called Q-sound, which I have only seen on a few CDs.

[Avrin]

Is there a way to recognize a properly mastered CD wihtout listening to it, like a particular label or mention on the jewelcase, a website that list them ?

Unfortunately, no. But you may find some information about CDs that are known to be mastered improperly, like Michael Jackson's "Invincible" (very seriously overcompressed and clipped), Depeche Mode's "Playing The Angel" (overcompressed and clipped), Metallica's "Death Magnetic" (absolutely horribly distorted), ABBA's full boxes (all albums are overcompressed, and later ones are clipped), Pink Floyd's "Oh By The Way" box (again overcompressed, with clipping on later albums), etc.

Before buying an album, you may download it in a lossless format from some P2P network to check. That's what I usually do.

I believe that Madonna's Immaculate Collection is properly mastered. It is also recorded in something called Q-sound, which I have only seen on a few CDs.

If you mean the original 1990 edition, then chances are it is mastered properly.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Avrin

[Sony_Fan]

Unfortunately, no. But you may find some information about CDs that are known to be mastered improperly, like Michael Jackson's "Invincible" (very seriously overcompressed and clipped), Depeche Mode's "Playing The Angel" (overcompressed and clipped), Metallica's "Death Magnetic" (absolutely horribly distorted), ABBA's full boxes (all albums are overcompressed, and later ones are clipped), Pink Floyd's "Oh By The Way" box (again overcompressed, with clipping on later albums), etc.

Before buying an album, you may download it in a lossless format from some P2P network to check. That's what I usually do.

If you mean the original 1990 edition, then chances are it is mastered properly.

Yes, the 1990 edition. Avrin, at what volume in dB is the threshold for an album or song being properly mastered. When I create MP3s and measure them on MP3 gain, I noticed that at 96dB or less, the music seems to have little or no distortion. Would you say it should be less than 96dB or more?

[Avrin]

I don't quite understand the 96 dB level. CD signal levels are measured from 0 dB (maximum) down to -96 dB. And a properly mastered CD properly uses the entire range. Here's a good article: http://www.cdmasteringservices.com/dynamicdeath.htm

But there is also a problem of inter-sample clipping - when two successive samples are below the 0 dB level, but at least one of them is close enough to it, the waveform between them may still be clipped. Although this kind of clipping is practically unnoticeable during listening, it should also be avoided.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Avrin