Hi-MD #@$%&^! "Format Disc Error"!

[JonnyPaisley]

I'm so pissed off at Sony, I could spit.

I've been using Hi-MD since its inception. Never had a problem -- until recently. I recorded a music concert using an RH10 with a 1GB Hi-MD disc at Hi-SP. After getting home from the concert, I noticed that I'd forgotten to stop the recording and therefore had a lot of "dead air" on the disc. As I was proceeding to delete the empty tracks, some kind of weird "glitch" occurred. I still don't know what the heck happened, but everything suddenly shut down and I got a "FORMAT DISK ERROR" message. I could no longer access any tracks on the disc, even though all the data is still on the disc.

I sent the disc to Sony Media Services in Alabama. I got it back a week later with a Post-It attached saying "Format Disc Error -- Unable To Recover." Gee, THANKS A LOT, SONY.

I've heard that the tracks have some kind of Sony-developed encryption on them that in this case, would prevent the data from being recovered. WHY would Sony use an encryption system that apparently not even THEY can overcome?

There are a total of three concert recordings on this disc that I now can't access. This is stuff that I definately wanted to archive, so I'm extremely frustrated and angry at Sony.

Do any of you have any idea how I might be able to access the audio on this disc?

THANK YOU!

[Avrin]

This year I encountered the FORMAT DISC ERROR on two second-generation gigabyte discs that were simply sitting on the shelf with music downloaded from SonicStage. No units wanted to play them. But as it turned out, they were still uploadable. So, I uploaded all their content back to SonicStage, reformatted the discs, and then put the stuff back. Now they play perfectly.

But your situation certainly looks more grim.

[sfbp]

As they say at the undertaker's, I'm sorry for your loss.

As I was proceeding to delete the empty tracks, some kind of weird "glitch" occurred.

I documented the problem where you delete multiple "Untitled" tracks. It's a problem in SonicStage and applies just as much to NetMD format disks as it does to HiMD formatted disks (whether 1G or 80m). In the future the only safe solution is to give each track a name (I suspect calling them all the same thing would work fine, but since I don't ever want to lose all my work again, I use a,b,c,d,e,f.....) before deleting it from SonicStage.

If you want to find out about what exactly goes into the formatting of a HiMD image, suggest you toddle over to the #linux-minidisc project. There's strong encryption going on, and even a one bit change will render an entire HiMD image completely invalid. That's the part that Sony Media Services will sometims be able to rescue as they have the master encryption keys which enable the recovery (decryption) of the music data.

You might get lucky, if another unit will read the disk, if it's really got its own problem. But I actually recall being able to trick floppy disks into the same state, incapable of reading any headers without a complete reformat. At some level it's a general media problem. There may be nothing wrong with any of your equipment or disks, and you were plain unlucky.

I wonder if this is the root reason why Sony decided to "abandon" HiMD, whilst still coming out with some NetMD models?

[bobt]

may also be the reason that it's not recommended to do editing on the MD, but to upload, and do the editing afterward, too many horror stories.

Bob

[JonnyPaisley]

As they say at the undertaker's, I'm sorry for your loss...

I wonder if this is the root reason why Sony decided to "abandon" HiMD, whilst still coming out with some NetMD models?

I appreciate the empathy. I'm just amazed and depressed that apparently there is not a single person on planet Earth who knows how to access audio files from a Hi-MD disc with "FORMAT ERROR."

[bobt]

Have you tried the disc in another unit? As much as we feel for your loss, you can't blame Sony for something that you may have caused, like blaming Toyota because you fell asleep and hit something, acceptance of responsibility is a start. Unfortunately, you joined the forum late than early, and it isn't circulated enough, but the consensus is you do editing after uploading. Try Avrin's method, and see if another unit uploads. As well, what flavor of Sonic Stage are you using, go to at least 4.2 and see what happens

Good luck

Bob

[JonnyPaisley]

Have you tried the disc in another unit? As much as we feel for your loss, you can't blame Sony for something that you may have caused, like blaming Toyota because you fell asleep and hit something, acceptance of responsibility is a start. Unfortunately, you joined the forum late than early, and it isn't circulated enough, but the consensus is you do editing after uploading. Try Avrin's method, and see if another unit uploads. As well, what flavor of Sonic Stage are you using, go to at least 4.2 and see what happens

Good luck

Bob

Thanks, Bob. While I have no trouble accepting responsibility, I highly doubt that it was anything I did. I was merely deleting tracks exactly the same way as I'd done many times before. However, since my incident I've read a number of other's tales of woe with "format disc error," which suggests to me a design flaw on Sony's part -- especially since Sony doesn't seem to have a clue about how to rectify this.

I forgot to mention that when plugging either my RH10 or RH1 (with the corrupted disc) into my computer, an "HMDHIFI" folder shows up onscreen with HMD files of various sizes inside. Would this help me at all?

Unfortunately, I never really considered editing AFTER uploading, since I assumed the RH10 was reliable both mechanically and electronically, and also because the operating instructions had an entire chapter on how to edit tracks on the recorder. Stupid me.

Regarding SonicStage, I'm running version 4.3. And yes, I did try uploading from an RH1, with no success.

So here we are...

[philippeb]

I have been bitten several time by "format disc error". My conclusion is that Hi-MD is not reliable, because of the complexity of hardware and software technologies. Too many obstacles in the way.

On the other hand, legacy MD technology is simple and robust. I have never lost SP/MONO recordings. Battery failures and even user errors can be recovered with TOC cloning. SCMS can be defeated.

My advice: record in SP on MD formatted discs, with your RH1. You will never again loose recordings, and you will still be able to upload your tracks to a computer.

[JonnyPaisley]

I have been bitten several time by "format disc error". My conclusion is that Hi-MD is not reliable, because of the complexity of hardware and software technologies. Too many obstacles in the way.

On the other hand, legacy MD technology is simple and robust. I have never lost SP/MONO recordings. Battery failures and even user errors can be recovered with TOC cloning. SCMS can be defeated.

My advice: record in SP on MD formatted discs, with your RH1. You will never again loose recordings, and you will still be able to upload your tracks to a computer.

That's good advice, Philippe -- thanks!

[A440]

No help for you here either, unfortunately.

And I've said it before, but your situation reminded me:

It is consummately idiotic that Sony made HiMD so that the entire disc is one encrypted file, rather than separate groups/folders/files. One glitch and it's all gone. I'm not a programmer, but anyone with a logical mindset should have known that there's no reason to mingle new recordings with old ones. Each group should have been a separate folder, so that even if one went wrong, you could still retrieve the rest.

Media Services actually did save a Format Error disc for me, but that doesn't make me feel any more charitable about Sony.

Sony had some kind of deathwish about minidisc. There's no other explanation.

[JonnyPaisley]

No help for you here either, unfortunately.

And I've said it before, but your situation reminded me:

It is consummately idiotic that Sony made HiMD so that the entire disc is one encrypted file, rather than separate groups/folders/files. One glitch and it's all gone. I'm not a programmer, but anyone with a logical mindset should have known that there's no reason to mingle new recordings with old ones. Each group should have been a separate folder, so that even if one went wrong, you could still retrieve the rest.

Media Services actually did save a Format Error disc for me, but that doesn't make me feel any more charitable about Sony.

Sony had some kind of deathwish about minidisc. There's no other explanation.

Thanks for chiming in, A440. Wow, you mean SMS was actually able to recover data from your Format Error Disc??!! Was yours a Hi-MD disk? If so, I wonder why they could do that for you but not for me...?

[A440]

Was yours a Hi-MD disk? If so, I wonder why they could do that for you but not for me...?

Yes, mine was Hi-MD. I was totally amazed.

I really think it's luck of the draw. Remember, one bad bit/sector can destroy the whole thing. Their tool found whatever was wrong on mine--maybe it was a software error. But yours must have had a different kind of glitch they hadn't anticipated. A flake in the coating? A bit they couldn't access? A lazy technician at SMS? We'll never know.

[wolb1]

I have been bitten several time by "format disc error". My conclusion is that Hi-MD is not reliable, because of the complexity of hardware and software technologies. Too many obstacles in the way.

On the other hand, legacy MD technology is simple and robust. I have never lost SP/MONO recordings. Battery failures and even user errors can be recovered with TOC cloning. SCMS can be defeated.

My advice: record in SP on MD formatted discs, with your RH1. You will never again loose recordings, and you will still be able to upload your tracks to a computer.

Thank you for this post. As I know it is possible to upload SP titles in analog technique. Do you know any software that does this digital?

Thanks in advance for any help.

[sfbp]

I was merely deleting tracks exactly the same way as I'd done many times before.

If you use SonicStage to delete multiple trackS, watch out! I have documented a horrible bug where deleting multiple ***untitled*** tracks completely screws up the whole shooting match. Fine as long as you label (I use one-character titles for the purpose) every track you want to delete before doing it. I think the same bug applies to NetMD and HiMD both.

Thank you for this post. As I know it is possible to upload SP titles in analog technique. Do you know any software that does this digital?

Thanks in advance for any help.

There's no SOFTWARE as such. It's a function of the hardware, you need an MZ-RH1 (same as MZ-M200) and SonicStage + Windows, to be able to do this.

Another way is to do optical out from a deck (not a portable) into PC optical in. This is not perfect (can have rounding errors) but is pretty good.

[vsherry]

I'm so pissed off at Sony, I could spit.

I've been using Hi-MD since its inception. Never had a problem -- until recently. I recorded a music concert using an RH10 with a 1GB Hi-MD disc at Hi-SP. After getting home from the concert, I noticed that I'd forgotten to stop the recording and therefore had a lot of "dead air" on the disc. As I was proceeding to delete the empty tracks, some kind of weird "glitch" occurred. I still don't know what the heck happened, but everything suddenly shut down and I got a "FORMAT DISK ERROR" message. I could no longer access any tracks on the disc, even though all the data is still on the disc.

I sent the disc to Sony Media Services in Alabama. I got it back a week later with a Post-It attached saying "Format Disc Error -- Unable To Recover." Gee, THANKS A LOT, SONY.

I've heard that the tracks have some kind of Sony-developed encryption on them that in this case, would prevent the data from being recovered. WHY would Sony use an encryption system that apparently not even THEY can overcome?

There are a total of three concert recordings on this disc that I now can't access. This is stuff that I definately wanted to archive, so I'm extremely frustrated and angry at Sony.

Do any of you have any idea how I might be able to access the audio on this disc?

THANK YOU!

I've had this happen to a Hi-MD disc two or three times, and it's never pretty. I just deleted all the data and started from scratch. This is probably one of the lesser-known but leading pitfalls of Hi-MD.

[vsherry]

As they say at the undertaker's, I'm sorry for your loss.

I documented the problem where you delete multiple "Untitled" tracks. It's a problem in SonicStage and applies just as much to NetMD format disks as it does to HiMD formatted disks (whether 1G or 80m). In the future the only safe solution is to give each track a name (I suspect calling them all the same thing would work fine, but since I don't ever want to lose all my work again, I use a,b,c,d,e,f.....) before deleting it from SonicStage.

If you want to find out about what exactly goes into the formatting of a HiMD image, suggest you toddle over to the #linux-minidisc project. There's strong encryption going on, and even a one bit change will render an entire HiMD image completely invalid. That's the part that Sony Media Services will sometims be able to rescue as they have the master encryption keys which enable the recovery (decryption) of the music data.

You might get lucky, if another unit will read the disk, if it's really got its own problem. But I actually recall being able to trick floppy disks into the same state, incapable of reading any headers without a complete reformat. At some level it's a general media problem. There may be nothing wrong with any of your equipment or disks, and you were plain unlucky.

I wonder if this is the root reason why Sony decided to "abandon" HiMD, whilst still coming out with some NetMD models?

What NetMD models did Sony release after abandoning Hi-MD? I wasn't aware of this.

[sfbp]

MZ-DN430 comes to mind, the so-called PSYC. I have one, it's quite good.

There are several models, such as MZ-N420D and MZ-NF520D that were released AFTER the HiMD introduction, as well. Probably some Japan-only models such as many "just players" (designated by MZ-Exx) have been seen too.

[laidler]

What NetMD models did Sony release after abandoning Hi-MD? I wasn't aware of this.

As far as I know after HI-MD came on the scene bye bye went the old NET-MD units, but I could be wrong. After the horror stories I've heard I'd likely as soon as mine arrives just save everything as .WAV files and just use that extra step and bunch of crap to do as a backup as well as a system of redundancy. Something goes screwy there just go back to the source and try again. I might just say sod it and accept I lost some tracks, fume for a while, then get over it and just be more careful in the future. Sorry for your bad luck mate, James.

[vsherry]

MZ-DN430 comes to mind, the so-called PSYC. I have one, it's quite good.

There are several models, such as MZ-N420D and MZ-NF520D that were released AFTER the HiMD introduction, as well. Probably some Japan-only models such as many "just players" (designated by MZ-Exx) have been seen too.

I am aware of NetMD models after the Hi-MD introduction, but someone specifically said NetMD models were released after Hi-MD was ABANDONED, which, of course, means after the RH1 rollout. I know of no such players. I briefly owned the MZ-NF520D, then sold it after I found out Hi-MD had been invented.