Sony PCM-M10

[ozpeter]

The new Sony PCM-M10 is garnering some favourable end-user and test comments, eg -

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/naturerecordists/messages/38949?threaded=1&m=e&var=1&tidx=1

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/naturerecordists/message/38965

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124639.225

(work backwards in that last forum).

I see it as the successor to the RH-1 HiMD recorder in some ways.

[StevenQBosell]

ICD-SX750 - does it have a line in?None of the specs I could see for it seem to have that listed

[sfbp]

Microphone in and line are switchable. Yes, I have tested it for both. It switches "automatically" by prompting you when you insert a live line in cord (not sure about the other direction).

BTW the AAA's can be re-chargeable (NiMH) and the unit will recharge them (from USB).

[StevenQBosell]

Just ordered mine from Amazon For $212 w/ expedited 3 day shipping.

So excited.

Will not replace my Hi-MD completely, but cannot nearly be as unreliable. In the past month, I've a disc fail on me, and 2 tracks from a 1gb Hi-MD failed to transfer back to my PC. Very frustrating.

Hopefully, that won't be a problem with the PCM-M10.

All the reviews I've read for the actual mics and audio recorded have just been awesome. Low noise floor, and considering I've used MD's for years, the few issues I've seen regarding UI should not be a problem for me. I'm used to convoluted MD menus

One odd thing, is that I don't see any spec that says it accepts Atrac files... now that's funny. Those files are now relegated to my PSP Slim lol

Out of curiosity, will it even connect to Sonicstage?

[KJ_Palmer]

No, there's no ATRAC or Sonicstage support for the PCM-M10 - or ever likely to be. At least this simplifies your options - record to Wav/MP3 (also playback WMA/AAC). You can drag and drop files and there's no DRM or flaky software to contend with, unless you want to try the bundled Sound Forge program...

[StevenQBosell]

Received it yesterday more than meets my expectations.

Audio is amazing on this thing, i really was not truly expecting it to be this lifelike. I'm pleasantly surprised at the 320 kbps quality, it's serviceable! Good to know if I have semi important long audio.

Recording @ 96/24bit was an example of audio fidelity at it's finest. I'm just so happy I got this thing for myself, it has hit every expectation I had and more, the unit feels solid, the line in works perfectly.

The only criticisms I have are very minor:

1) CBR encoding for MP3's - I for one am a VBR fan, and wish they could have implemented a VBR encoding scheme - perhaps VBR would eat too much power.

2) Only 3 MP3 settings, 64 kbps, 128 kbps, and 320 kbps - 96 kbps and 112 kbps (I record quite a bit of talk radio) would have been great.

Ofcourse I can record everything at .wav, then convert down via VBR as I see fit. It would just be nice to have those 2 built in, but w/e.

Overall, best Xmas present I have purchased myself in years.

Very solid.

Highly recommended for anyone looking to replace or compliment an existing / aging MD recording setup.

[sfbp]

2) Only 3 MP3 settings, 64 kbps, 128 kbps, and 320 kbps - 96 kbps and 112 kbps (I record quite a bit of talk radio) would have been great.

Score one for the ICD-SX750 - 48, 128 and 192 recording bit rates for MP3. Mind you, I still prefer LPEC STHQ (which you don't have at all) over almost any MP3 rate (even 256k) below about 320. It's particularly good for voice, as this is a voice recorder. I recorded a concert (at 1411 PCM) with children's voices and piano recently, and the piano was perfect, using "only" the inbuilt mikes.

Mind you I am seriously tempted to see about an M10 at that price. Would mean a trip to the USA as there are no Amazon electronics sales here in Canuck-land.

Stephen

[StevenQBosell]

No, there's no ATRAC or Sonicstage support for the PCM-M10 - or ever likely to be. At least this simplifies your options - record to Wav/MP3 (also playback WMA/AAC). You can drag and drop files and there's no DRM or flaky software to contend with, unless you want to try the bundled Sound Forge program...

Yeah love the drag and drop, although I still have to go into the file itself to change the metadeta (all tracks are some variation of

"Title: 101209_27 Artist: My Recording"

No biggie, just a little time consuming

[sfbp]

Yeah love the drag and drop, although I still have to go into the file itself to change the metadeta (all tracks are some variation of

"Title: 101209_27 Artist: My Recording"

No biggie, just a little time consuming

I wonder if you can use the software bundled with the ICD-SX750, lol. It handles all of that quite nicely.

It's almost certainly a free download.

You want Digital Voice Editor Version 3.3

Stephen

[StevenQBosell]

Mind you I am seriously tempted to see about an M10 at that price. Would mean a trip to the USA as there are no Amazon electronics sales here in Canuck-land.

If you're the audiophile I believe you are, I'm telling you, the M10 is a fantastic machine that will probably hit all the marks you'd need it to. Every musician friend I know from now on will be hearing me evangelize the M10. Recording clean vinyl @ 96/24 the other day with a friend was amazing.

If you can get it for less than $220, I'd say jump on it.

To be honest, I probably should've gotten the M10 as opposed to my 910 Hi-MD. Just so much easier, no Sonicstage, no uploading via atrac, no converting to wav, no having to open Foobar and VBR them... It's just so much more efficient than Hi-MD and that's a shame.

Now that I have the Hi-MD, I'm probably not going to get rid of it, but honestly, the M10 is leaps and bounds ahead of any MD unit.

Again, only reason to keep the MD is for optical in.

If you can swing it, I have a great feeling you'd LOVE the M10.

[sfbp]

I have done some very nice live recordings with my SX-950 (12 hours or so of PCM without having to upload, is plenty). For vinyl I am pretty much at the place where the weakest link is the Vinyl itself, so it's more about what Sound Forge can do than comparing different hi-quality sound recorders. MD-292 (SP) is more than adequate.

[StevenQBosell]

Had this beautiful machine for a minute, and noticed something.

My line recordings didn't have the "warmth" they had with the minidisc. Something was just off, the recording sounded more compressed.

Then realized I had the low cut filter on.

When rcording via clean line in, wow, such a difference.

it's almost required for noisy , bass heavy live venues, but for those using it for digital recordings, keep that in mind...

[laidler]

Steven, could you conduct a little experiment for me? I'd like to know if one can directly put MP3s or .WAV files directly on a MicroSD card using a computer, as in through a dedicated card reader or USB adapter, not the recorder it's self, then put the card into the recorder and see if it plays the files loaded into it. I'm still a little worried about the recorder formatting the card in a way that a card written on by another device such as a computer won't register. Sorry for the paranoia, it's Sony's fault. Would be great if I could play things in the recorder from an already written card, or take a card out and play it in something like one of those newer car stereos with an SD slot or even use a USB adapter to play in a USB port. Thanks, James.

[NickyJay]

I am quite sure that as a professional spec machine Sony will not have limitations of almost any kind on it.

[KJ_Palmer]

Steven, could you conduct a little experiment for me? I'd like to know if one can directly put MP3s or .WAV files directly on a MicroSD card using a computer, as in through a dedicated card reader or USB adapter, not the recorder it's self, then put the card into the recorder and see if it plays the files loaded into it. I'm still a little worried about the recorder formatting the card in a way that a card written on by another device such as a computer won't register. Sorry for the paranoia, it's Sony's fault. Would be great if I could play things in the recorder from an already written card, or take a card out and play it in something like one of those newer car stereos with an SD slot or even use a USB adapter to play in a USB port. Thanks, James.

Hi James,

I can confirm that you can put any mp3 or wav files directly from a computer onto a micro SD card, insert the card into the PCM-M10, which will play them back quite happily. I assure you, it works a treat, with none of the (understandably) suspected Sony intervention.

[StevenQBosell]

Yep works flawlessly via card reader or device itself. Lol this thing goes with me everywhere I gotten awesome stealth recording with this bad boy purchased a neck lanyard for it, one guy even asked me "why are you using a EKG meter?" lmao

[laidler]

That's a relief. I could have handled some silly Sony proprietary formatting for the card, but I plan to eventually buy one of those car stereos with a USB connector and use one of those little USB adapter connector things for an SD card. Means I could, say, play it in the M10, stick the micro sd into the car, then take it out and right back into the M10. Guess I will buy one after all. Just hope it plays with my Sennheiser HD 280 pros nicely, the ICD-P620 the school paper has sounded just awful on headphones. But then it's a mono voice recorder.

[sfbp]

I don't think the ICD-P620 is going to come even CLOSE to the the ICD-SX7x0/8x0/9x0 series in quality (which I have bought and reviewed), not a fair comparison at all. So-called "High Quality" on the P620 has a cut off at 6,800 Hz Whereas the ICD-SX750 records in PCM and whilst not quite as good as the PCM-M10, comes pretty darned close, and has some very good codecs (NOT mp3) that allow large amounts of music to be stored in compressed form on 2,4 or 8 GB of flash quite conveniently.

[laidler]

Ha ha, you fanboy. Anyway, is there a cap on the capacity of card the M10 can accept? Though I doubt I'd shell out the cash for a 16GB card, it would be nice to know if it can handle them. Also, is there a difference in performance between micro SD and micro SDHC media in this device?

[sfbp]

Ha ha, you fanboy. Anyway, is there a cap on the capacity of card the M10 can accept? Though I doubt I'd shell out the cash for a 16GB card, it would be nice to know if it can handle them. Also, is there a difference in performance between micro SD and micro SDHC media in this device?

Not sure. The biggest problem with large capacity flash cards seems to be access speed. Many are rated slow enough that the newer devices won't work with them. I am unsure where PCM-M10 sits wrt this - however if you ever look at Sony's instruction manuals there are endless disclaimers suggesting that operation of all flash cards is not guaranteed.

Often you are *required* to have SDHC and/or class 4 or 6 (class 2 often doesn't cut it). The other odd thing is that from a low in 2008 SD flash card prices have rebounded something horrible, and you now pay as much for 4GB as you did 2 years ago for 16. The flash recorders with inbuilt memory don't cost much more than the memory itself in some cases.

My concern about these SD cards is basically the contacts. Anything being inserted and removed frequently stands to get degraded and suddenly one day not work (either from dirt or simply something gives). The other issue is that Sony designed their Memory Stick Duo devices to transfer data 8 bits at a time instead of 4, IIRC, and whilst proprietary, they can honestly claim that whilst SD is more generally used, their MS sticks are *better* (mind you microSD may well be another ball game again). Funnily enough these are now at a bit of a discount, and most Sony devices will accept both flavours (SD and MSD).

I'm happy with my inbuilt memory.

[StevenQBosell]

If I recall correctly, current firmware supports internal 8 gb + a max of 16 gb externally for a total of 24.

I hope on a new update they add a sleep timer, and 96 or 112 kbps recording. Other than that, this had been the best thing I've ever bought for myself...

Also on Amazon (US) they've got an 8 gb class 4 MicroSD for $2.97 + $4 shipping.... Not bad at all

[sfbp]

I finally broke down and got a PCM-M10 (sort of just in case they decided to "improve" it as with much other technology). Bad move!

The one that arrived absolutely didn't work with USB connection. I couldn't return it without paying 3 lots of shipping (to me x2 and return shipping) at $50 a pop (and $30 customs again on second one to boot); anyway the website (redirected, sort of, from Amazon.com) didn't have any more in their store. Sony Canada doesn't support this beast. So I ended up sending it back to Sony US service (with a return address in USA for me) and about 3 weeks later one finally turned up with all its bits and bobbles (so I have two sets of remotes, carry strap, ac adapter, software disk). That's nice, I admit.

However my latest surprise is that despite having a setting for NiMH versus Alkaline (AA) batteries, the unit won't recharge my NiMH batteries. Is this yet another fault, or is that the way it is supposed to work???

Meanwhile I continue to use my ICD-SX950 (12 hours LPCM recording, more than the AAA batteries anyway) for live events.

Merry Christmas to everybody, and hoping that 2012 brings good news for everyone here still interested in high quality sound equipment.

[KJ_Palmer]

No indeed, the M10 doesn't have an AA recharging facility Stephen (unlike some MD portables), although you can set the type of AA to alkaline/NiMH to use with the unit, in recognition of the different characteristics of each type. Perhaps it's to cut costs, or possible interference from the extra circuitry - to be fair other digital recorders (eg. my Tascam and Edirol) have exactly the same setup with the AA/NiMH firmware switch and no recharging.

[sfbp]

OK. Well I guess that's another point in favour of the SX750/950 or their MIcroSDHC-capable younger brothers SX712 and SX813. The 750 and 850, at least, will happily recharge the batteries without even needing an adapter... from USB without being asked.

[Transistor]

Oh, Stephen, we know you love your ICD-SX. And it's appalling that you got a lemon the first time around on the PCM-M10.

But give the big guy a chance. No battery recharger, but a pair of AAs lasts something like 40 hours. (I always dump mine when they get down to two bars and let my Sony CD player eat the remainder of their power.) You can throw a 32GB card into the slot and thus have it seamlessly record 36GB (the transition from internal to external memory is seamless). The internal mics are wonderful for voice and surprisingly good for music. The external mic preamps are widely praised for low noise.

Basically you never have to worry about storage space for hi-fi wav recordings of long performances. You can see how solidly the thing is built. You have to love the display. In a perfect world I would add levels on the remote, but it's pretty much a field recordist's dream.

Have you checked out the 5-second pre-recording feature, where you leave it on Pause, something happens, you quickly hit the Record button and you've captured what happed just before you hit Record?

[sfbp]

Jon,

I've been singularly underwhelmed by the MicroSD slot. In both PCM-M10's (the lemon and the replacement) it took(takes) on average 3 insertions to make it be read. Admittedly that means it just is more like extra (fixed) memory, but.... and this is the kicker (in any argument between PCM-M10 and SX series), IMO - the newer SX712 and 813 have the same slot. But see below.

Ozpeter did a review, as you recall, and concluded that the mics included in the SX (at least the 750 he tried) were better. The record display on the SX series is excellent too, as he noted already. Just about the only weakness I can see is the omission of the "every x minutes" track mark. The track marks are managed better on the PCM-M10, since marking a track does not automatically cause a track divide.

With 8GB (SX950) I pretty well will never run out either at 44/16. And the LPEC STHQ mode (sadly withdrawn from the PCM-M10 and later SX series) is a terrific codec. Sony must have figured they were never going to beat the MP3 "tide". You can actually record in it. I really don't want or need 96/24.

The 5-second feature is common to both machines. In fact they share a whole bunch of features, and show up on the same leaflet describing "pro audio", IIRC.

I like the physical form factor (of the SX series) too - with screen over, it fits nicely (and stealthily) in breast pocket for any purpose which doesn't involve me singing at the same time as recording. And the little stand is actually less obtrusive than the one needed to screw into the bottom of the PCM-M10. I've stuck it on a table near the front of church and no one batted an eyelid.

I must admit that being able to take a MicroSD and plug it into an adaptor (I have now got ones for USB, SDHC and MemoryDuo) or mail it in a snail mail letter, makes that medium the tool of choice for moving large amounts of music/data when the internet is not convenient.

Stephen

[Transistor]

OK, now I remember what my beef was with the SX series.

From the specs for the SX712.

Recording Modes, Frequency Range

LPCM 44.1kHz/16bit: 40 Hz - 20,000 Hz

MP3 320kbps: 40 Hz - 16,000 Hz

MP3 192kbps: 40 Hz - 16,000 Hz

MP3 128kbps: 40 Hz - 16,000 Hz

MP3 48kbps (MONO): 40 Hz - 14,000 Hz

MP3 8kbps (MONO): 50 Hz - 2,000 Hz

Whereas the PCM-M10 is 20Hz to (they claim, their dogs can verify) 40,000 Hz

20 to 40 Hz might not seem like a big difference but it is a whole octave of bass, including the bottom notes of a piano. I want those. Opera may not use it but rock, jazz, etc., certainly do. 40 Hz is like having a low-cut filter you can't turn off.

The upper range, from 16,000 to (human ear perceptible) 20,000, includes overtones that will make the sound more natural, but that is less than an octave and way the heck up there, and despite the wider numerical gap is not as crucial. But the 40Hz cutoff for a rock show would make it tinny.

Also, 16-bit WAV is considered old-school by the serious concert recorders. At 24-bit, you can apparently record at lower levels (to protect from overload) and boost with better quality later.

Ozpeter is a great resource and extremely knowledgeable. But as far as I can tell through searching, the only post I saw said that he preferred the mic configuration in the SX series, not necessarily the mic quality. He is fixated on stereo image and doesn't like the close omnis in the PCM-M10 (they would have to be wider apart), although there is a software plugin to improve the stereo image. I haven't seen anything from him on the actual mic quality. Not that it particularly matters to me--I use external mics. Spec'd at 20Hz-20,000 Hz.

I can see the convenience, lightness, cuteness and low price of the SX series. Seems ideal for a radio journalist recording interviews and ambience, or for dictation, or as a musician's idea catcher. But for a real live-music recorder it's still the PCM-M10.

[sfbp]

My impression of these (and all) specs is that these numbers indicate the range over which the reproduction is warranted to be +/- 3dB or some such. I can assure you that a full symphony orchestra and a loud organ both sound really splendid on the 700 series.

No way I would use MP3 for anything I cared about. I tried it on the 700 long ago, and immediately rejected it. Dead, wooden, whatever adjective comes to mind.

I have now, perforce, acquired a series of Sony Cassette decks built into other units. Curiously as the specs went worse, the sound got better. That is, the latest machine has the worst specs and the best sound. Bizarre!

And the cutoff for LPCM is just about guaranteed to be the inbuilt mics. Dollars to doughnuts putting some "proper" microphones in the mike input would extend the range.

YMMV.

[sfbp]

Also, 16-bit WAV is considered old-school by the serious concert recorders. At 24-bit, you can apparently record at lower levels (to protect from overload) and boost with better quality later.

The 24-bitness is exactly why so many of us are here using (and praising) MD. 44/16 is actually a step down of sorts. However it's easier to edit after the fact than MD (Sony made sure of that, there's still no way to edit SP with a sound editor), which is probably what killed MD. Most of the high frequencies these days are taken up recording high frequency noise from fans of one sort or another, IMO. So that high frequency stuff is mainly about making the background sound realistic, rather than any real perceived sound.

I suppose one could make the argument that back in the bad ol' days of analogue, we had no idea how to quantify much of this stuff. Sort of like the techniques both of recording AND performing (by singers in world class opera, for example) have continued to evolve over the last 20 years, since the introduction of digital recording.

Saw Jonas Kaufmann in Tosca over the weekend - what a voice! And that had the sound track recorded in MP3. It's all in the pictures, isn't it?

Stephen

[ian1odonovan]

Hi guys,

Sory if this is a basic question but I can't find my manual... is it possible to record from an input (mixer) and also record with the external mics?

Thanks.

[sfbp]

http://www.docs.sony.com/release/PCMM10.pdf

[ian1odonovan]

Thanks for the manual.

The external mic is disabled once an input is connected! That's pretty lame! I thought recording both would be a given.

I would have bought a Zoom product otherwise.

[sfbp]

1. If you wanted 1 channel on each then you'd have a problem, since line levels are way different (bigger) than microphones. TBH this is what a mixer is for.

2. You say "external mics"... do you perhaps mean "internal mics"? There's only one socket for input. Miniaturization has a price...

3. Sony's gear going back 20 years all works this way, I think. I can see why you want it perhaps; I can also see why they might argue "this is the Sony way".

4. Microphone mixers are inherently analog devices - maybe you should get one rather than asking Sony to put an extra analog stage inside your handheld device, with all the attendant things that might go wrong with it (switch noise for example).

I don't know from direct experience the Zoom line, but most people I have talked to say the Sony beats most competition. There's a price for configurability, too...

Have a nice day.