sfbp Posted December 29, 2009 Report Share Posted December 29, 2009 As the proud possessor of a receiver with as many digital (optical or coax) inputs as I could possibly want, here's my question: Who cares about whether the MD deck has a phenomenal D to A section, if I'm using SP/DIF out? Many of the posters here have been assuming it's worth the money to buy a high end ("pro") deck such as MDS-B5 or MDS-JB920 or JA333ES, preferring these over later models. But surely there is NO DAC involved if the receiver itself does the job of conversion? I am pretty impressed with my Onkyo TX-SR605 and am thinking that it's likely the more recent designs of amplifiers could well be doing a better job than the older models that don't have digital input. I really don't know on this point, so would welcome some opinions. A subsidiary question is whether Type-S makes any difference when optical out is used. I have been playing my JE640 (Type-R only) into the Onkyo and comparing with the MXD-D400 (which has Type-S) and I do not see a huge difference, if any. Using analog output the JE640 was definitely not listenable at least with LP2 recordings, which are starting to make up the bulk of my on-MD collection. But now it seems quite acceptable. Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippeC Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 That is an interesting post. When I finally got my MDS-B5 in France last summer, I was in my father's house where all my old Hi-Fi is stored. There I have an Arcam Delta 170 CD transport plus a DAC Arcam Black Box 3, an external DAC one. It was one a very first DAC built, before MD history. So, I made some test using MDS-B5 alone and MDS-B with Black Box. Sincerely, I did not notice any difference (perhaps because my original very high End Einstein amplifier was not there for the test, I had only a old 70's amplifier). As a conclusion, only meant to me that the DAC built inside the MDS-B5 was good enough than the Arcam Black box 3. From now, I never got opportunity to make further tests with a digital amplifier or a modern external DAC like the Cambridge Audio DAC Magic. My amplifier in Vietnam is a Cyrus IIIi so I don't have any optical in. I suppose that the cable between your MD deck optical out and your Onkyo amplifier has also a great importance (I have a Monster optical cable). But your question is about DAC quality (MD deck DAC versus amplifier DAC). Perhaps it is also a question of built quality and a comparison between tank built and non tank built decks optical out connected to your Onkyo amplifier is interesting too, high-end MD decks will perhaps win at least that war ! As I don't have any deck with type-S (or type-R ha ha ha), I cannot help you. I only use my MDS-B5 for listening (remember, I use my computer : Winamp + DFX Audio Enhancer + optical out for my recordings). For me the recording quality (sorry, best-sound-recording-for-me) is more important. That is why I choose to come back to SP. I have Hi-MD MD walkman(MZ-RH1, MZ-NH900) but now I use them only for recording (they have type-R). MDS-B5 explode them for the listening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted December 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Interesting. So maybe the S/N ratio quoted in the specs (assuming it is correct) is the determining factor? Type-R ought to be the winner for quality, because of what it does (all Type-S machines include Type-R). I looked at the MDS-B5 and it says 88dB (for material recorded on the machine, it's better for premastered MD's). Whereas the spec on the JB980 is 100dB. The JA333ES claims 106dB, my JE640 claims 98dB. What's in a number? As always the ears are the final arbiter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippeC Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Interesting. So maybe the S/N ratio quoted in the specs (assuming it is correct) is the determining factor? Type-R ought to be the winner for quality, because of what it does (all Type-S machines include Type-R). I looked at the MDS-B5 and it says 88dB (for material recorded on the machine, it's better for premastered MD's). Whereas the spec on the JB980 is 100dB. The JA333ES claims 106dB, my JE640 claims 98dB. What's in a number? As always the ears are the final arbiter. I cannot record with my MDS-B5 coaxial in, he has a problem. There is another optical output, a single AES/EBU XLR-3 connector; I don't know any idea to what it is supposed to be connected. I don't need to test the analog input so far I have optical recording with any of my Type-R (S) walkman. What I can tell is that I needed to decrease the level of the playback control when I connected the first time the MDS-B5 to my Cyrus IIIi. The sound was far louder than my Cyrus Dad3 CD ! But I don't know how much level db I am now on because the numbers on the screw button are too small. Another thing is that depending of the year you record a MD, recording and/or listening level is different, even sources level is different (Old CD / New CD, CD player / Computer optical out with DFX or not) so it is a big mess to compare anything without a method in a test. Louder sound look at first better. Is it why my MDS-B5 sound good to me ? I don't know, I am lost. It is why I choose my ear rather than any technical specifications. I see that MDS-B5 are expensive in America but from time to time you can find cheap ones in France for 150$ (perhaps because there is one "little" problem like mine). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avrin Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 A subsidiary question is whether Type-S makes any difference when optical out is used. It surely does. An optical out sends 44,1 kHz/16 bit Linear PCM, which is obtained from the original ATRAC[3] signal by the DSP in the unit. Then the receiver converts the Linear PCM signal to analog, and here the result strongly depends on dithering and noise shaping algorithms used in the DAC of the receiver, and on analolg filters employed after the DAC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippeC Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I have found very cheap digital amplificator (kit I think) on the USA web (for less that 50$) but I loose the link and forget the brand name. Do you heard of such a possibility for DAC also ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted December 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 It surely does. An optical out sends 44,1 kHz/16 bit Linear PCM, which is obtained from the original ATRAC[3] signal by the DSP in the unit. Then the receiver converts the Linear PCM signal to analog, and here the result strongly depends on dithering and noise shaping algorithms used in the DAC of the receiver, and on analolg filters employed after the DAC. However, it's not clear since I don't have the circuit diagram of any deck with Type-S (including the two that I possess, JB980 and MXD-D400) that they **didn't** realise this and do something different (I apologise for the double negative but I can't see a better way to express myself). What about Onkyo HiMD decks, does anyone here have a schematic? How to set up a test that distinguishes this point, Avrin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted December 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I have found very cheap digital amplificator (kit I think) on the USA web (for less that 50$) but I loose the link and forget the brand name. Do you heard of such a possibility for DAC also ? You can get a top quality amplifier/receiver with digital in (and in Sony only, I think, also OUT) for $200 or less on Ebay. Go for one about 3 years old. At these prices I wouldnt consider buying new ($800-1000) or trying a kit of any kind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippeC Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 However, it's not clear since I don't have the circuit diagram of any deck with Type-S ... For the Onkyo Hi-Md, such service manual with diagrams will be in japanese. Aaaarrrggghh. And I don't think that the same guy who do it one time for a Hi-MD deck user manual will translate the service manual in english ! Poor you. But poor me, perhaps diagrams are in an universal langage ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfbp Posted December 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 yes - circuit diagrams most often in english, including part numbers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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