Recommendations for non-MD portable digital recorders

[alexisvas]

Hi

sorry if this has been covered before. If yes feel free to erase it.

I love my MDs but I want to try another digital recorder. I am not a musician and I only record live rock concerts. Until now I use in-ear mics microphone madness MM-BSM-8 http://www.microphonemadness.com/products/mmtrunathook.htm

and a simple battery module microphone madness MM-CBM-Mini http://microphonemadness.com/products/mmcbmminminc.htm .

I plug them in line-in of my MZ-RH10 or RH1 and I am very happy with the results.

So my main concern is the recording quality but I want to try something new!

I dont want it to be expensive and I dont care if it has built-in mics. I believe that for my use they would be useless right. I definately want the recorded files to be uploaded to mac, I dont want to have the same minidisc problems once again! Drag and drop is the upload method? Tascam has some interesting models but I cant understand which to choose. DR-8 comes to mind. One feature I would like is the "time mark" that the MDs have. And to recharge batteries as well.

One more important thing is the quality of the device. I dont want it to have the feeling of a cheap plastic toy. I want it to be well constructed?

What do you suggest?

[sfbp]

There are others here with real knowledge. Sounds like the (Sony) PCM-M10 is cost effective, and there are many posts about it on this site. I also found a small recorder ICDSX700 at my local drugstore, and there apparently is a whole range of these that noone here has ever commented on.

I tried to reproduce the specs from the Sony support website but they protected the document. It really seems Sony doesn't want anyone to find out about this one.

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-documents.pl?mdl=ICDSX700D

Summary (I will edit later if I can):

PCM down to 32kbps, uncompressed, LPEC (sounds like atrac but different), MP3 recording, + WMA playback.

Built in mics with plug for external

USB

1GB capacity (flash)

I have no clue why noone has ever commented on this.

[NickyJay]

Yes the PCM-M10 is definately for you. Fellow MD member tekdroid has given detailed analysis at http://taperssection...opic=124639.360

It does look like a lot of MD die hard users are abandoning ship unfortunately.

[bluecrab]

There are others here with real knowledge. Sounds like the (Sony) PCM-M10 is cost effective, and there are many posts about it on this site. I also found a small recorder ICDSX700 at my local drugstore, and there apparently is a whole range of these that noone here has ever commented on.

I tried to reproduce the specs from the Sony support website but they protected the document. It really seems Sony doesn't want anyone to find out about this one.

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-documents.pl?mdl=ICDSX700D

Summary (I will edit later if I can):

PCM down to 32kbps, uncompressed, LPEC (sounds like atrac but different), MP3 recording, + WMA playback.

Built in mics with plug for external

USB

1GB capacity (flash)

I have no clue why noone has ever commented on this.

You mean these specs? (attached)

ICDSX700D_mksp.pdf

[sfbp]

You mean these specs? (attached)

Sure but I didn't like to post the whole operating manual. At about page 128 or so there is an extensive list of features, bitrates and on and on. Extracting that was a problem. These are "marketing specs" which are often "misconstruable".

One more thing that isn't obvious unless you have it in your hand or read the manual all the way through... it accepts external microphones of the type we are all familiar with. It's even switchable between line-in and microphone. Why couldn't you have done this before, Sony, and why did we never hear about this model?

[sfbp]

You mean these specs? (attached)

Scan follows. I might even put some key pages from the manual. This sounds like a hot ticket. 52g without batteries, MP3 and LPCM recording....

Specifications

lc recorder section

Capacity (User available capacity)

1 GB (approx. 970 MB =1,017,610,240 Byte)

A part of the memory capacity is used as a management area.

Recording time*1

See page 31.

*1 When you are going to record continuously for a long time, you may have to replace

the batteries with new ones in the midst of recording. For details on the battery life, refer to page 17.

Frequency range

 LPCM 44/16: 50 - 20,000 Hz

 LPCM 22/16: 50 - 10,000 Hz

 MP3 192kHz: 50 - 16,000 Hz

 MP3 128 kHz: 50 - 16,000 Hz

 MP3 48 kHz: 50 - 14,000 Hz

 LPEC STHQ: 50 - 20,000 Hz

 LPEC ST: 50 - 16,500 Hz

 LPEC STLP: 50 - 7,000 Hz

 LPEC SP: 50 - 6,000 Hz

 LPEC LP: 50 - 3,500 Hz

Bit rates and sampling frequencies for MP3 files*2

Bit rate: 32 - 320 kbps, VBR

Sampling frequencies: 16/22.05/24/32/44.1/ 48 kHz

*2 The playback of MP3 files recorded using the IC recorder is also supported.

Not all encoders are supported.

Bit rate and sampling frequencies*3 for WMA files

Bit rate: 32 - 192 kbps, VBR Sampling frequencies: 44.1 kHz

*3 WMA Ver. 9 is compatible, however, MBR (Multi Bit Rate), Lossless, Professional, and Voice are not supported.

A file of which copyright is protected cannot be played back.

Not all encoders are supported.

General Speaker

Approx. 16 mm (13/32 in.) dia.

Power output

150 mW

Input/Output

 Microphone jack (minijack, stereo)

- input for plug in power, minimum input level 0.9 mV, 3 kilohms or lower impedance microphone

 Headphone jack (minijack, stereo)

- output for 8 - 300 ohms headphones

 USB connector

- High-Speed USB compatible

Playback speed control (Ope) -75% to +200%

Power requirements

Two LR03 (size AAA) alkaline batteries: 1.5 V DC Two NH-AAA rechargeable batteries: 1.2 V DC

Operating temperature

5

[bluecrab]

Sure but I didn't like to post the whole operating manual. At about page 128 or so there is an extensive list of features, bitrates and on and on. Extracting that was a problem. These are "marketing specs" which are often "misconstruable".

Quite right. I took as a near-personal insult that Sony set the file to uncopyable. I was able to screen-shot the page and save it that way. I wonder if I'd been at home and had Acrobat Pro at my disposal if I could have changed the perms on that file. Oh well, your scan worked just fine.

[sfbp]

The one I find interesting (given my recent dabbling with lower MD rates) is the 128kbps STHQ recording - 17 hours 20 mins!

Also 22kHz LPCM Stereo might be interesting (3hrs 10m). Does anyone know what this would sound like??

This recorder seems to have a lot of options I have read and re-read people here asking for. Mono, for instance. Voice-activated recording (as an option of course).

I just broke down and got one. We shall see.

[sfbp]

Wow! I have to try it on a real recording of something live, but so far, so good.

The mp3 playback is quite adequate. WAV of course sounds much better. Mono is possible, for ridiculous amounts of storage of speech.

Recording - I simply set something going on speakers and recorded a segment in MP3 and a segment in STHQ (LPEC) using my Soundpro BMC-SP3's. Not very scientific. But the LPEC recording sounds MUCH closer to ATRAC. What's the betting this is MD technology transformed? Drag and drop, but still the MD style convenience of editing before upload.

I can live with 17 hours of 128kbps. Of course 96m of LPCM is very nice too. The 22khz stereo LPCM (which I tried after the STHQ) is eminently acceptable, too - I bet there are LOTS of applications for which this would be perfect. I am guessing the application they provide is needed to get those LPEC codecs decoded in the PC (playback, and converting to more "normal" formats).

I tried the line-in and it works nicely. There's a software switch you have to set to change over from MIC to LineIn.

The best novel feature.... the record button acts as RECORD-PAUSE.

And the whole thing isn't a lot bigger than my toothbrush. Needless to say it charges via USB the supplied NiMH batteries from either PC or the MZ-RH1 charger.

[ozpeter]

Interesting... how much control is there over level when recording? Hopefully it's not always automatic?

Here in Australia this device is $440(AU) while the M10 is $599 - personally I'd pay the extra for the "real thing" intended for serious recording (and targetted more for music recording than voice), but obviously that depends on one's precise requirements.

Lack of 24 bit recording and memory of only 1GB are obvious drawbacks for "serious" use - but of course one has to define "serious"!

[sfbp]

There's definitely a Manual mode for recording. Independent of the headphone volume, two different pairs of buttons BOTH operable during recording.

I paid $249 Can, and there seem to be models available in the US for a lot less than that. There's a 2GB version at Amazon US for $160, so I am feeling (like you) somewhat ripped off right now. But hey, it's a nice piece of kit.

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-ICD-SX750D-Memory-Digital-Recorder/dp/B00387E5DA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1273973012&sr=1-1

I think the LPEC codec STHQ at 128kbps seems like the ATRAC 128kbps codec many here noticed was missing from recordable rates on MD. Not that it IS ATRAC, just the combination of space and freq response is decent.

Some more notes:

Atrac converted to 256K MP3 can be played (after transfer) and sounds good. 128K MP3 not so good. I also noticed that the "native" MP3 recording mode at 192 wasn't as good as the STHQ.

LPCM 22khz sample rate (Fs 11.05 Khz of course a significant cutoff) is acceptable for live recording. Symphony orchestra sounded quite good despite the supplied mic lurking in my pocket. Not good enough to use, but that was not the recorder's fault.

Editing on the recorder (divide, anyway) is really trivial.

Titling can be done either through Windows Explorer (presumably Mac too) via USB, and also somewhat more easily using their supplied software (Digital Voice Editor).

Conversion of STHQ to MP3 directly (WAV I already mentioned) works fine. I haven't tried the other direction, if it can be done.

When you connect something in the input socket it always asks you if it's a mic or line in. Nice.

[sfbp]

This has to be the quietest I've ever seen the board. Sigh.

Continuing on (maybe some admin would like to change the title of the thread or sticky it or something) I also found out that the latest version of Sonic Forge Audio Studio, available (by download) from Sony for the grand sum of $54.95 speaks ALL of ATRAC/3/+ as well as MP3 and also the "native" format of this ICD recorder, .MSV.

I used Sound Forge 9 to convert from Atrac3, from Atrac3+ and from Atrac Advanced Lossless, to MSV on the flash recorder. Pretty darned good, none of the artifacts we have learned to avoid with SonicStage conversions.

[A440]

I used Sound Forge 9 to convert from Atrac3, from Atrac3+ and from Atrac Advanced Lossless, to MSV on the flash recorder. Pretty darned good, none of the artifacts we have learned to avoid with SonicStage conversions.

Audio Studio 9 LE--that's Sound Forge lite--is included with the PCM-M10. It looks like it includes ATRAC.

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/audiostudio/features

Looking at the frequency response specs for the little ICDSX700 voice recorder, they don't go below 50Hz. And most of them are curtailed at the top end as well. It seems to be pretty specifically a voice recorder, not for music. (A piano goes down to 27.5 Hz, and a boomin' system goes even lower.) That 1GB limit would be like owning one Hi-MD and having to perpetually transfer recordings.

The PCM-M10 is one great handheld music recorder, including good-sounding playback. 4 GB onboard, microSDHC (up to 32GB) in a slot.

It has every feature I want except recording level on the remote--although it has some LEDs on the unit, green (sounding good) and red (overload), that you can glance at if you keep it in a waist pouch. If it overloads, it has a Limiter function that has a simultaneous recording at 20db lower--so it will substitute that to lower or eliminate distortion.

If you have to be stealthy, it is the same size as a (fatter) iPhone and security guards think it's a camera--one warned me not to use flash with it.

There's no time mark, unfortunately. And there is no recharging but it has insanely good battery life with two AA's--5-7 concerts before the battery indicator dips halfway down.

The PCM-M10 has completely replaced my Hi-MD at concerts.

If the approximately $279 street price is high, Tascam makes some under-$200 flash recorders better suited to music than the Sony ICDSX700.

Wingfield audio has compared a lot of recorders--though there is a brand-new Tascam they don't have yet.

http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-reviews.html

Edited May 19, 2010 by A440

[sfbp]

Looking at the frequency response specs for the little ICDSX700 voice recorder, they don't go below 50Hz. And most of them are curtailed at the top end as well. It seems to be pretty specifically a voice recorder, not for music. (A piano goes down to 27.5 Hz, and a boomin' system goes even lower.) That 1GB limit would be like owning one Hi-MD and having to perpetually transfer recordings.

That's what I thought when I saw this in the drugstore 5 months back. And dismissed it.

I was surprised though. It really is eminently suitable for music. Just the way they packaged it makes you think it isn't. Of course how much below 50Hz does one really hear, given that 50/60Hz is the frequency of mains hum?

Drag and drop makes up for the 1GB capacity. The STHQ mode (17 hours in the 1GB, 34 hrs in the 2GB) is really quite decent. There's no apparent roll-off at the lower end; perhaps that 50Hz might apply to the inbuilt microphone? I exported to WAV just to check, and it looks pretty normal. These are both from the same 10-second passage in the first movement of Scaramouche (2-piano music by Milhaud). First the "raw" WAV as ripped from CD by Sonic Forge

Then the "exported" LPEC STHQ file (after conversion to STHQ and back to WAV).

2-piano music can be pretty taxing on any system with poor reproduction. This sounds perfect. I know there is some "ripple" above 14K but the shape of the curve looks very very similar to me.

The opening of Tosca sounds quite full-bodied and overall, excellent.

I suspect this is simply a matter of a product being marketed (targeted) to a particular audience for a particular purpose. It certainly meets Sony's standards as set with MD, and has none of the restrictions or drawbacks. I have yet to do a recording with LPCM 44.1kHz sample rate, but even the 22.05kHz LPCM sounded quite decent of a (live) symphony orchestra. All I can say is, go buy one from somewhere with a good return policy.

Sound Forge Pro is up to version 10, so this (9) is the LE, as you say. But lots of nice new features in the Lite model. Some in the ICD series include it anyway, just my bad luck that the one I got did not.

[sfbp]

Here's the "real" list of features from the help file for Sound Forge 9. A surprising amount of new stuff. I was particularly impressed that my favourite format AAL is included in the capabilities, as well as being able to read all my SonicStage (.oma) files and even (it is slow but what the heck) "Export to NetMD" for any file in the editor. I tried all of the above, CDDB works for titling a single track!

I shortened it quite a bit to make the summary readable.

What's new in version 9?

- 24-bit, 96 kHz support.

- Support for LPEC files imported from Digital Voice Editor software.

- IC recorders support 3 stereo recording modes (STHQ, ST, and STLP)

and 2 mono recording modes (SP & LP). Sound Forge Audio Studio supports only the stereo modes.

- Vinyl Recording and Restoration Tool for recording audio from vinyl records.

- Disc-at-once CD burning.

- JKL scrubbing in data windows.

- Drag-and-drop mixing and pasting between channels.

- Gracenote® MusicID™ technology for extracted audio from CDs.

- Support for opening and rendering ATRAC3™, ATRAC3plus™, and ATRAC Advanced Lossless

[sfbp]

If you have to be stealthy, it is the same size as a (fatter) iPhone and security guards think it's a camera--one warned me not to use flash with it.

(of the PCM-M10) If the approximately $279 street price is high, Tascam makes some under-$200 flash recorders better suited to music than the Sony ICDSX700.

Two more points

- the PCM-M10 weighs in at 13oz, the ICDSX7x0 series is under 2oz. Metal body, too.

- Amazon has them on for $123 (that's the 2GB model)

[Soundbox]

So, after working with it for a while how does it rate against MD? Somehow these solis-state recorders seem the way forward but I am prepared to spend time 'fiddling with disks' if the ultimate quality is better. Also I rate MD as a good archive format - at least as good as CD's anyway.

[sfbp]

Did a stealthy recording last night (Not that stealthy, it was in my pocket whilst I stood there with a handheld camera and took a video) and will be working on it today to splice together. It's with the inbuilt mike and there is pocket rustle (not to mention me chuckling a couple of times) but I suspect it will be quite adequate and way better than the sound picked up by the camera. We'll see what happens to the solo singers, initial impression being good.

I played the opening of Tosca to the subject of the farewell gala, the retiring conductor of our choir (he got snapped by the video/recording singing 2 funny songs), and we've agreed I am buying him one as a parting gift. He lives in the US so I just ordered 2 more from Amazon and will pocket one for myself when I drive down there to set it up for him.

I also stuck the same in the ears of an audiophile friend at the same do - his eyes lit up and he clearly wants one. "Sony" he said. "Metal body", says I.

Just reflecting - for downloaded music (to the device) I can discern the order

CD > MP3/256 > MP3/192.

I think that LPEC STHQ is somewhere in the middle there, my impression is between the last two, closer to the 256k. However it has a different sound profile from ATRAC or MP3, which is clearly seen on the waveforms, and it may turn out to be better than ATRAC LP2. Don't know yet.

Just as I wouldn't try to do a serious live recording on MD without using LPCM (and the 2GB unit will now cope with 3hrs 10m of that!), I will probably use decent mics and the highest rate in future. But STHQ seems pretty good both as a download format (after conversion from ATRAC) and as a non-critical recording medium.

I get the impression that transfers are very fast from the recorder. I drag&dropped the results of last night over to the PC, totalling 160MB, and it took under 20 seconds. Going the other direction (I dragged about 160M of MP3's) took a little over 3x as long, about 70 seconds, which isn't surprising for flash memory.

[ozpeter]

There's no time mark, unfortunately.

Not sure what you mean by that. It has a mark button which creates standard track marks in wave files readable in most (all?) DAW software. There's provision for later splitting the recording at the track marks if you want.

[ozpeter]

I'm now finding the 2GB model for $250 Australian dollars here. That's more tempting.

http://www.sony-asia.com/product/resources/en_AP/pdf/PA/ICD/VoiceRecorder_brochure.pdf is the brochure, which seems to indicate that Sony do target this recorder for music as well as voice, and interestingly the M10 is seen as part of the range.

The microphone layout in the ICDSX700 seems to lend itself to MS recording - I wonder whether that's actually how it works "under the hood", given that Sony have had MS mics in their catalog for years? In that case I'd expect it to provide a better stereo image than the M10, whose mics while quiet and full range provide poor stereo imaging (in my view).

[sfbp]

I still haven't done a proper test of that aspect. Both my live recordings had the unit in my breast pocket. Sounded good, though.

[ozpeter]

Mine is now on order (2GB model) - I really should stop reading internet forums as they always cost me money!

It will be very interesting to see what the differences in real-world performance are between this little recorder and the M10.

[sfbp]

I sent you a PM

[A440]

Time mark--which the OP asked for--is the feature in MD that automatically puts in a track mark every x minutes--5 mins., 10 mins., etc. It's useful if you want to hop through interviews instead of constantly holding down the fast-forward button.

The PCM-M10 doesn't have that--or at least I haven't been able to find it. It does, of course, do track marks either during recording or playback.

------

Now about the ICDSX750...does it have a line input? I don't think it does. Which means that you are very dependent on mic-in for (1) not overloading and (2) staying low-noise.

I was tempted a while back by a similar gizmo called the Yamaha Pocketrak. The C24 is now $199, and it does have a line input.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/673024-REG/Yamaha_POCKETRAK_C24_POCKETRAK_C24_Pocket_Stereo.html

Edited May 23, 2010 by A440

[sfbp]

Now about the ICDSX750...does it have a line input?

Sure does. The mic input doubles as line in. I've tested it. When you insert something into the socket it pops up and asks you whether it's an external mic or line in.

(see the bottom of p.50, item 7, in the manual)

[A440]

Sure does. The mic input doubles as line in.

(see the bottom of p.50, item 7, in the manual)

Ah, very promising. I wonder if it's just an attenuated mic input--still going through the preamp--or bypassing the preamp. Have you tried recording silence to see what kind of noise there is on mic-in and line-in?

[sfbp]

Nope. But I have done very nice recordings in both modes.

[ozpeter]

Prompted by the discussion above, I thought it might be interesting to see what the differences are between the SX750 and the M10 (apart from the obvious) as there are certain family resemblences.

In terms of physical format, the SX750 is about the same height as the M10, except the former has mics mounted on top while the latter has them built into the body. In other words, the main body height is about the same, but the SX750 mics project above the body. It's about 30% thinner (AAA batteries vs AA in the M10 being the key factor I guess) and half the width. The SX750 is largely controlled with buttons on the right side. If you are right handed, the most important controls fall nicely under your thumb. The topmost button is the record / record pause button.

The SX750 display is high quality LCD, and the display is laid out sideways when playing and menu setting, and vertically when recording which allows for decent size vertical meters with a margin display above them - very nicely done.

My chief reservation about the M10 relates to the built in mics. They have a good frequency response particularly at the low end, and are low noise, but because they are built into the case Sony had to use omni capsules, and I'm not aware of any recommended mic technique involving closely spaced omnis. The outcome is that the stereo image is narrow and skewed by frequency, with higher frequency sounds being more likely to appear at the sides of the image and lower frequency sounds tending to clump in the middle, leading to a muddy-sounding image with little sense of ambiance in a reverberant acoustic.

The SX750 perhaps goes to the opposite extreme. It has three cardioid capsules, one pointing forwards (when the recorder is laid flat) and the other two pointing sideways at 180 degrees. The stated purpose of the centre mic is to enable interviews or lectures to be recorded more clearly in mono. I rather hoped that Sony had done the obvious thing and implemented an MS configuration for stereo, as (apart from the slight distance apart of the side-facing capsules) the arrangement of the mics would be ideal for that method. However, careful testing shows that the centre mic is not used when the recorder is switched to stereo. Consequently, sounds coming from the centre of the soundstage arrive very much off-axis at the side-facing capsules, which is not a disaster in this context but it's an opportunity missed. But the configuration does have the advantage that it doesn't matter whether you hold it (or mount it) vertically or horizontally - it's all the same as far as the mics are concerned.

The SX750 stereo image is far superior to the M10 image, due to the mic configuration, with left/right localisation very clear, and perhaps exaggerated, though it's easy to pan the sides inwards in post production. However, the mic (and/or preamp) quality is inferior to the M10. The SX750 sound is noticeably thinner at the bottom end, although there's enough that a bit of bass lift in post production is possible to correct matters. However, that comes with a noise penalty, as there's low-mid noise as well as higher frequency hiss. How much? Well, it's perhaps better than one has a right to expect at this price point and physical size. For 'everyday' use, no big deal, but for serious recording of acoustic music, it would be a problem. But this is not a tool intended for that task.

Personally, all things taken into account, I'd be more likely to use the SX750 standalone than the M10. But I'm particularly fussy about stereo image. If low noise and a more low-end-extended frequency response matter more to you, then the M10 would be the winner.

So how does the SX750 fare with external mics? I briefly tested it with a pair of Naiant omnis and with a Rode Stereo VideoMic. Noise was higher than with the M10 (which is pretty tough competition) but again, it was usable for casual or ultra-stealthy recordings. The SX750's available gain was considerably less than that of the M10. You'd get best results with high output mics with the smaller recorder.

Line in was also slightly noisier on the SX750 than the M10, but you'd have to listen at pretty high levels to hear it. Well up to price-point expectations.

The general working of SX750 menus etc was much like the M10. There are two broad levels, the second level being accessed via a first level "detail" option, just like the M10. It's friendly and smooth in operation.

Location of the headphone output is where you'd expect the mic input to be - on the top between the mic capsules. I guess if you were operating it stand-alone in your shirt pocket (it's just the right size for that, and weighs very little) it would be handy to have the phones lead coming straight up from the top, but it does seem an odd arrangement, and ideally the mic input (which is on the side) would be at the top instead.

The SX750 comes with two CDs of software, a desk stand which has a tripod thread concealed in its base (nice surprise), a soft case, windshield, usb cable, and thowaway ear buds.

There's all sorts of other features tucked away in the menus, which the downloadable manual would explain. All in all it's an interesting general-purpose recorder - at a pinch, not unusable for concert taping on a budget, good for voice note purposes (it's Dragon certified for voice recognition) and ideal for simply keeping in your coat pocket just in case. And as I always like to record to two devices on location, it'll connect to the line out of the M10 when that's my main recorder.

Now to the samples I've prepared. Firstly, I have to confess to a boo boo - I did most of the tests with the sampling frequency set to 22050, but I don't think that's actually that important.

The downloadable file (rendered down to mp3) contains the following -

Speech recorded on the SX750 internals, no eq

Speech recorded on the M10 internals for comparison, no eq (note the difference in the stereo image!)

Same as first SX750 but with eq to try to emulate M10 sound

Speech recorded on the SX750 using Naint mics plugged straight in, 5dB of digital gain applied to match next sample

Speech recorded on the M10 using the Naint mics plugged straight in, no gain required.

SX750 line in from piano solo CD

Ditto M10

Link - http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/Sony%20recorder%20tests.mp3

[The above is a version of a post I've added to the "TapersSection" forums]

[sfbp]

Thanks for a great review. Now something is puzzling me - what is the difference between 750 and 750D? The 750D seems consistently to command a higher price. What magic feature from the 750 is missing (it's the one I just bought 2 of) that is in the 700D and 750D??

I have looked through the manuals. No joy yet.

Just in the interests of full disclosure, my positive reviews so far were for the SX700D. I'll blow a gasket if the 750 is in some way inferior.

Edit: looks like the only difference I can see is that the D model doesn't have the inbuilt folding stand (not the charge stand, that is a separate dealy). I also noticed there is some confusion about the Sonic Forge (or whatever its called now) software. Did you get it included? I paid $250 for a machine with 1GB, no stand, and no Sonic Forge. The $123 to Amazon looks like it includes the stand and the software and 2GB onboard memory. Where's the catch? If there is none, I am definitely pulling the trigger on the money-back guarantee.

[ozpeter]

The "D" model should include the (quite expensive) Dragon voice recognition software, as far as I can see, hence the higher price. Mine (the non-D model) came with Audio Studio 9 LE, Digital Voice Editor, a clip-on stand with tripod socket thread, USB lead, windshield, and ear buds. The manual indicates that what comes included varies with territory. Mine seems to be a USA/Canada model, though I'm not certain of that.

Some more 'discoveries' - the "Music" auto level setting option gives a bass boost to recordings, though the level is set quite low. When using the manual recording setting (or the other auto settings) you can have the playback bass boost on to provide an immediate more rounded replay quality, though if editing and preserving the recordings in DAW software, you'd still need to add to the bottom end at that point if you didn't record with the "Music" setting. Recording with the "music" setting on and the bass boost replay setting on as well gives too much bass boost.

[sfbp]

Too bad, I paid extra for the Dragon stuff I didn't even want, and then on top of that for Sonic Audio Studio 9. So it goes, sometimes to make an omelette <blah blah blah>.....

The only conceivable criticism (and it's minor) is that the MOVE function isn't very precise. You can move stuff into a given folder but it will always put it at the end (which is good enough in some cases - ie moving into the present folder will move the track to be that folder's last).

My line in recordings sounded, if anything, better than yours. I will cross check with some piano, but I think so far I only transferred or converted piano from ATRAC or WAV. And I definitely think that LPEC/128k beats MP3/192k for actual direct recording from microphone.

[ozpeter]

Check out the cost of the Dragon software - though I'm not sure whether that bundled with the recorder is a cut-down or dedicated version - and you may find it worth trying to sell it if it's possible to licence it to someone else.

It's a great program - my wife dictates everything through it and it's quite spooky how accurate and fast it can be - but if you don't need it, you don't need it!

[sfbp]

Just a note in closing: the differences between the 700D and the 750 are quite numerous. In general the 700D looks better made with a "sparkly" metallic finish rather than the plasticky-looking shiny finish of the 750.

- The Word "SONY" between the LCD and the mics is raised metal on the 700D, on the 750 just white paint.

- The 700D comes with a charge stand (fits the 750) but no spring-clip microphone stand like the 750

- The earbuds with the 700D were ok (not as good as the ones with gold-plated jack from many MD units), the ones with the 750 dreadful, though they looked externally the same. Maybe just luck.

- Rechargeable batteries were supplied with the 700D, though the 750 will in fact recharge batteries if you get some.

- The mic/linein connector on 750 is a bit recessed, not flush with the body on mine, whereas on the 700D it looks more solidly built.

- The carry bag is superior on the 700D.

Looks like they tried to save money to come out with something competitively priced. What worries me a bit is if they skimped on the microphone quality compared to the 700D (which I made some nice recordings with). No data yet, but I have my suspicions.

I also had a look on Ebay and found there are ICD-SXnnn models going up to 8GB (the 4GB is available here but the 8GB only from Japan). Meanwhile there are definitely PCM-M10's on for under $300 US. However there's "only" PCM and MP3 recording - the ICD series has this impressive array of choice of codecs for different applications, and the LPEC STHQ 128kbps beats (IMHO) the MP3 codec easily. I should not be surprised if the MP3 recording on the PCM-M10 was about the same as MP3 recording on the ICD-SX700D, not all that good. However I cannot properly comment, this is pure conjecture.

The only annoying thing about the software is that there isn't a way to batch convert from OMA (md) to LPEC. I can do it with Sound Forge but it takes a while, and there's no batch convert (at least in the bundled version). Using the Oma->MP3 batch converter from Sony I can definitely tell the difference between the MP3 (default bitrate chosen by Sony) and the LPEC, the latter being better at 128kbps than the former at 160kbps.

Moral of the story - you don't get something for nothing?

Noted 7.06.2010 - there's ICD-SX950 on Ebay for $225 with 8GB on board, I'm tempted.......

[sfbp]

Well, here is as good a place as any.

I have just done my first "edit" of an Atrac file, using Sound Forge 9.0. The story went like this.

I twice recorded the same opera, once in LPEC STHQ (128kbps) on the ICD-SX750 using line in, and once on HiMD Hi-SP (256kbps) using optical, but from the same satellite (I believe 128kbps AAC or equivalent) source. For comparison purposes.

It turned out that I missed the beginning of the second recording (the HiMD one). So I thought, here's a test, splice the first 6 minutes from the LPEC recording into the beginning of the ATRAC recording, and see how it sounds (and what it looks like).

Well, I am happy to report that although there appear to be some differences between the two codecs (not unexpected), listening to the spliced passage really seems seamless. And frequency analysis of both looks basically the same up to 16,000 Hz. If I had to pick, I would say the LPEC does a better job as more detail is there. You can hear the words of the singers a little better. OTOH as Jon (A440) pointed out maybe there isn't so much bass in the LPEC compared to HiSP. However, honestly, it doesnt sound that much difference. Both are good, and I think I could probably tell each in a blind test.

So all in all, the ICD line seems to be holding up nicely. I was VERY pleased to actually edit ATRAC without converting to WAV and back again.

Stephen

[StevenQBosell]

The fact that Sound Forge LE can nativly edit atrac has me really tempted to load on the ole' PC here.

Before I do, I'm extremely familiar with Adobe Audition / Cool Edit - how similar is Sound Forges interface and features compared to Audition?

And I agree, Atrac @ Hi-LP (66 or 64 kbps, I forgot), is much cleaner than 128kbps CBR

[sfbp]

The fact that Sound Forge LE can nativly edit atrac has me really tempted to load on the ole' PC here.

Before I do, I'm extremely familiar with Adobe Audition / Cool Edit - how similar is Sound Forges interface and features compared to Audition?

And I agree, Atrac @ Hi-LP (66 or 64 kbps, I forgot), is much cleaner than 128kbps CBR

The LE version lacks some of the expensive features in CoolEdit Pro. The ones I paid for. But that's not exactly a fair comparison. I still use CoolEdit for some functions eg FFT noise reduction, and looking at spectral analysis.

But the inbuilt functions for cleaning up old recordings are actually better and easier to use than the equivalent functionality in CoolEdit (I haven't actually used Audition).