Keeping recording date metadata when transferring from MZ-RH1 to PC

[spk]

Dear all,

My first post to the forum, yay!

I'm new to using a Minidisc with a PC, so please be gentle. Here's my problem:

I have a large number of standard Minidiscs (not Net-MD or Hi-MD or anything else fancy) containing live, mono (i.e. long play) recordings made with an Aiwa AM-F80 portable Minidisc recorder. The AM-F80 date-stamped all these recordings. If I play them back on the AM-F80, I am able to view the recording date on the AM-F80's screen by pressing the AM-F80's "Display" key a few times. These date-stamps all appear to be accurate.

Now, I wish to transfer these recordings, complete with metadata, to PC. I bought a Sony MZ-RH1 for this, and installed the SonicStage 3.4.03.15140 software that came with it. I have now transferred some of the recordings to PC. However, SonicStage does not appeared to have copied across the metadata along with the audio, since the files on the PC are all named and dated according to the time the transfer to PC was made, not the time the original recording was made.

What can I do to ensure SonicStage keeps the date-stamp information in the transferred recordings?

Many thanks in advance for your help!

[sfbp]

You can't (simple answer).

In time (complex answer) there may be a way but it depends on software that is not written yet, or if written, is not really in a useable form yet.

[spk]

In time (complex answer) there may be a way but it depends on software that is not written yet, or if written, is not really in a useable form yet.

Thanks for your quick reply. Can you tell me which program (or programs) might be able to do it? I'm using SonicStage in a Windows XP virtual machine (via VMWare Fusion) on a Mac running Snow Leopard, so I have both those operating systems at my disposal, if that makes a difference, and I'm happy using both the DOS prompt in XP and the Terminal in Snow Leopard.

Thanks again

[sfbp]

Since they can't do it, you need to understand that, not really.

However, for Hi-MD only the #linux-minidisc project's creation, QHiMDTransfer, will do what you want. As you point out, most of your disks are Lo-MD format. I'm not even sure that the (PC/MAC/whatever) software for the RH1 has access to the TOC, more like the firmware reads it and sends what it thinks.

[spk]

Since they can't do it, you need to understand that, not really.

However, for Hi-MD only the #linux-minidisc project's creation, QHiMDTransfer, will do what you want. As you point out, most of your disks are Lo-MD format. I'm not even sure that the (PC/MAC/whatever) software for the RH1 has access to the TOC, more like the firmware reads it and sends what it thinks.

It seems bizarre that the metadata could be right there on the Minidisc but that the MZ-RH1 would deny the PC access to it. If so, that's some serious baked-in user-unfriendliness on Sony's part!

What about other workarounds? Is there some way to copy MD to Hi-MD that would preserve the date stamps (thus allowing me to transfer from Hi-MD to PC, including the date stamps)?

Thank you again for your patience!

[sfbp]

As I say, I don't know of any way to get access to the TOC in software. All we have is commands that create or delete entries.

Sony got very scared of copyright issues at one point. Perhaps dating back to their tussle with the MPAA over Betamax (the first VCR and the creation by the US courts of the weird "fair use" doctrine). That lawsuit almost was the end of Sony, I think.

[spk]

As I say, I don't know of any way to get access to the TOC in software. All we have is commands that create or delete entries.

How frustrating. I guess this means I've no alternative but to type the dates in manually for every one of several hundred recordings Error-prone and time-consuming! Whatever Sony's reasons, this is a shoddy position to leave users in.

Thank you again for all your help, though, and if you have (or if anyone else reading this has) any brainwaves about what you'd do in my shoes, other than the above, please let me know!

[sfbp]

It ain't gonna happen with the RH1 or any portable unless I or someone else can figure out the relationship of Slink or PClink to the NetMD command set (which I will attempt shortly).

HOWEVER....

If you can get a PCLink capable unit (there are lots) you may be able to do a lot from the computer. Still not sure about the date, as I won't have my first PCLK working in my hands for a few days (and maybe not even then). When I do, it's just possible M-Crew, the software for that setup, may do some of what you need.

Another ray of light... there is an RS232 interface to the MDS-E11 and 12 Pro models. It may do what you want. The AV users who like hundreds of DVDs in a machine (I'm one of them but I haven't done this) say there's a similar RS232 interface to the ES-grade carousel machine (ES777?). Once again I am unsure whether date is shown.

Now the bad news - I checked that I can record (on N910) with clock turned on (ignore my previous edit please) and the resulting disk can be read in the RH1 with the "correct" time and date.

However upload always adds the time and date of upload. Sigh.

One final thought... here. But for that you need real hardware.

[spk]

It ain't gonna happen with the RH1 or any portable unless I or someone else can figure out the relationship of Slink or PClink to the NetMD command set (which I will attempt shortly).

I wish you luck and speed!

If you can get a PCLink capable unit (there are lots) you may be able to do a lot from the computer. Still not sure about the date, as I won't have my first PCLK working in my hands for a few days (and maybe not even then). When I do, it's just possible M-Crew, the software for that setup, may do some of what you need.

I'd be very grateful if you could let me know, when your PCLK arrives, whether you're able to use it to transfer date-stamped MD recordings from disc to PC, retaining the date stamps - even if an extra step or two (other than manually entering the date stamps) is required.

Another ray of light... there is an RS232 interface to the MDS-E11 and 12 Pro models. It may do what you want. The AV users who like hundreds of DVDs in a machine (I'm one of them but I haven't done this) say there's a similar RS232 interface to the ES-grade carousel machine (ES777?). Once again I am unsure whether date is shown.

These can be hired in the UK for

[sfbp]

Just a quick note to follow - MDS-E1x do NOT do upload. But you might be able to write a program to get data off the disk and write back a TITLE with time instead, followed by upload using the RH1.

And so far as I am aware, PCLK does not allow any transfer via USB whatever, it is purely a control connection which wakes up the MD and transfers real time optical TO the md. The precursor to NetMD, of course. But it's possible that some semi-automatic titleing could be done. (Read the title, modify with macro, write back, using snagit or one of the keystroke utilities). SonicStage is locked in, but I have a hunch that MCrew may be a slightly more open solution.

If I ever get wealthy I may want one of those data drives. The 4-track units use them, I wonder if those can (there's a Yamaha and a Sony in common currency) be coerced similarly into title-modification?

Stephen

[spk]

Just a quick note to follow - MDS-E1x do NOT do upload. But you might be able to write a program to get data off the disk and write back a TITLE with time instead, followed by upload using the RH1.

And so far as I am aware, PCLK does not allow any transfer via USB whatever, it is purely a control connection which wakes up the MD and transfers real time optical TO the md. The precursor to NetMD, of course. But it's possible that some semi-automatic titleing could be done. (Read the title, modify with macro, write back, using snagit or one of the keystroke utilities). SonicStage is locked in, but I have a hunch that MCrew may be a slightly more open solution.

Ah, I understand. So the idea in both cases would be the same: name the recordings according to their timestamps. Then I'd transfer the recordings to PC via the MZ-RH1.

Since you're getting a PCLK shortly, would you mind testing whether it can be used in the way you've outlined? If so, great - I'll go with that approach

If not, then I'll have to weigh up whether the time it would take me to hire an MDS-E1x and write a program to control it vs. the time it would take me to enter ~1800 timestamps manually... Or is there already software freely available for controlling the MDS-E1x that could be scripted for this purpose somehow? (I've never really looked into pro MD decks before - forgive my ignorance.)

If I ever get wealthy I may want one of those data drives. The 4-track units use them, I wonder if those can (there's a Yamaha and a Sony in common currency) be coerced similarly into title-modification?

I see what you're getting at, but it's a long shot! Did any of those 4-tracks have computer interfaces (USB, RS-232, Firewire, or such like)? And even if they did, do any open source drivers for them exist that could be used as a basis for writing title-modification scripts in a reasonably friendly language (e.g. Python)?

[sfbp]

Sorry. Just looked at the multitrackers and not one of them has RS232. I'm surprised.

I have not got great expectations of the PCLK, and never having had one, I simply don't know. I think perhaps one would have heard of someone trying to do what you are doing. But that's a longer term approach, scoping out the protocol and then writing something.

I think your best shot may be to investigate the RS232 approach. But still not clear to me if that has date output available via the serial connection. Another place that might be worth hacking is the wired remote that these pro units come with. SLink again, I suspect.

That leaves the data drive as the only surefire way to do this. Or sitting and patiently typing into SS from a sheet of times and dates.

[sfbp]

Here's a challenge for you:

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://page5.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/SONY-%25E3%2583%259D%25E3%2583%25BC%25E3%2582%25BF%25E3%2583%2596%25E3%2583%25ABMD%25E3%2583%2597%25E3%2583%25AC%25E3%2583%25BC%25E3%2583%25A4%25E3%2583%25BC-MDH-10/auction/e107578481&prev=/search%3Fq%3DSONY%2B%25E3%2583%259D%25E3%2583%25BC%25E3%2582%25BF%25E3%2583%2596%25E3%2583%25ABMD%25E3%2583%2597%25E3%2583%25AC%25E3%2583%25BC%25E3%2583%25A4%25E3%2583%25BC%2BMDH-10%2BSONY%2B%25E3%2583%259D%25E3%2583%25BC%25E3%2582%25BF%25E3%2583%2596%25E3%2583%25ABMD%25E3%2583%2597%25E3%2583%25AC%25E3%2583%25BC%25E3%2583%25A4%25E3%2583%25BC%2BMDH-10%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff&rurl=translate.google.ca&usg=ALkJrhiTPMciZVIUIM-8EeMBSWJH3Uc95Q

But even this drive won't let you edit the metadata. To play audio you have to put it into "Audio" mode using a switch. So I don't think this will fly.

[THIS SUCKS]

I wish you luck and speed!

I'd be very grateful if you could let me know, when your PCLK arrives, whether you're able to use it to transfer date-stamped MD recordings from disc to PC, retaining the date stamps - even if an extra step or two (other than manually entering the date stamps) is required.

These can be hired in the UK for

[sfbp]

i just remembered there is a minidisc unit called a "HHB PortDisc" is was $1500 new! it had a usb connection for upload. it was supposed to be used by journalists in the field for recording. maybe that would upload the time stamp?

Spot on... I forgot about the MDP500.

I looked through the brochure and I am uncertain as to whether it uploads the date stamps. philippeb (here) has one, so would probably know.

There's a couple of auctions looking promising on Ebay UK.

[spk]

Spot on... I forgot about the MDP500.

I looked through the brochure and I am uncertain as to whether it uploads the date stamps. philippeb (here) has one, so would probably know.

There's a couple of auctions looking promising on Ebay UK.

Ah, yes, I remember seeing the MDP-500 advertised (in Sound On Sound, I think), many years ago, but at the time I didn't realise how rare Minidisc recorders with USB control and audio I/O were.

Thank you both for your suggestions. I've emailed philippeb about the MDP-500, and will wait to see what he says.

In the meantime, I've transferred all the recordings to PC so that I could at least back them up offsite. It's also occurred to me that there's a lazy approach available to handle the task of renaming the recordings by recording date: use a digital camera to video the screen of either the AM-F80 or the MZ-RH1 - set to display the current track's timestamp - while I scroll through the tracks on each MD. Then I can use the videos to title the recordings by date on an as-needed basis, or whenever I have a few minutes to spare in front of the Macbook. This will also allow me to sell the AM-F80 and MZ-RH1 sooner rather than later; and I must confess that selling them is my ultimate goal. (I'm transferring all my media - MDs, CDs, LPs, DVDs, VHS, etc - to PC for convenience of access and backup, and also so that I won't need to devote so much space and care to maintaining high quality playback devices.)

[spk]

I hope you'll be investing into redundant HDD backups too, as well as DVD-RAM / BD backups? An on-line storage server as well maybe? As with HDD's, it's not a matter if, but when, they will fail.

Absolutely right. I'm using Crashplan to provide me with an online backup and rotating HDD backups. I don't get rid of any source media until I've got at least two copies on HDDs in different locations.

I'm backing up analogue and "old world" digital media to HDD, but I'm keeping all the originals and the playback devices, as long as they are unique enough to be kept. CD's, if not limited or rare editions go out. Vinyls I keep. Tapes, Audio or Video, only for irreplaceable stuff, usually self-recorded I keep. DVD's I don't have many of anyhow, and no self-recorded, will probably be sold. MD's I already sold; Hi-MD's I keep. DVD-RAM for archiving. I'm still busy checking out on-line storage server services; haven't made my mind up yet. And my HDD's are RAIDed. I only keep the old stuff because I happen to have the space, not only out of nostalgia. I do like spinning a record once in a while, I'll admit that .

I'm on a similar path, only a little more ruthless. I may keep a few LPs, CDs and cassettes for sentimental reasons, even once I've got them on PC, but I'll probably but them into storage somewhere safe & climate controlled, along with my cassette deck & record player, until such time as I - say - have children and want to show them what daddy used to listen to!

I used to have a file server with RAIDed HDDs, but I sold it; it was noisy & took up too much space. I figured that as long as I didn't need instant failover capacity, my RAID array wasn't giving me much value.

I very much agree the time stamp issue is yet another shameful missed opportunity by Sony: why offer the option when it can not be transferred alongside the recording to the computer? I guess the answer probably lies somewhere along the lines that once again the focus was more on the hardware than on the software; PC-connectivity was a bit of an afterthought with MiniDisc.

Yes; "shameful" is an entirely appropriate adjective in this case. I'm very glad that folks on the forum have been so supportive since I started this thread

[philippeb]

i just remembered there is a minidisc unit called a "HHB PortDisc" is was $1500 new! it had a usb connection for upload. it was supposed to be used by journalists in the field for recording. maybe that would upload the time stamp?

I have never tried the usb upload facility. If I remember well, upload via usb was realtime, and limited to versions of Windows that could assign sound input to a usb device.

[sfbp]

I have never tried the usb upload facility. If I remember well, upload via usb was realtime, and limited to versions of Windows that could assign sound input to a usb device.

Hi Philippe. I was thinking (to try and help OP) that it might be possible to get the date/timestamps off the HHB unit somehow, and wondering what software is in fact supplied with the unit...

So the ability to upload is not much different from any other device (deck) with optical output, is what I think I am hearing. Pity.

Stephen

[spk]

Yes, if it just acts as a USB audio device then it wouldn't be able to transfer the metadata to PC. Too bad

Guess I'd better get my digicam set up to film the screen. Absurd, isn't it, that this would be the best solution! Ah well, that's MD for you. Still, it could be worse: it could be DAT

Thank you all again for your help!

[sfbp]

I'm still waiting for my PCLK unit to become operational. No sign there of time stamps... but the software certainly seems to be pretty intimate with most of the functions on the connected unit.

The root problem seems to be that timestamps were only ever conceived of as a way to track the length of recordings, in the original MD design. When they got date/clock added, software still used the lowest common denominator which does NOT include date/timestamps.

I would still be mildly surprised if some E11 or E12 owner didn't pipe in with "oh, THAT problem.... no problem", eventually. But those decks are not that common.

Update: just saw one on Ebay (US) and reviewing the manual seems to indicate the record date is shown on the front panel. I rather suspect the RS232 (external editing/control) will bring whatever the front panel shows out to a connected terminal. If there's any unit that will do what you want, this has to be it.

Stephen

[pxjenkins]

Can anyone help? I have a MZ-RH1 which I love, but cannot get the files to transfer from it to my Mac when running OSX Snow Leopard (10.6.4). I'm trying both LP and SP recordings on a HiMD disk.

I can't get Hi-MD MT to work even by disabling Hi-MD Monitor; nor can I get QHiMDTRansfer to work.

I'm looking for a simple solution to be able to make voice recordings on the MZ-RH1 and then get them onto my Mac

Thanks!

[sfbp]

Start by setting disc mode to HiMD. You should have a lot more luck transferring Hi-SP and Hi-LP than the older modes, with a Mac. This because the HiMD support only reads files on the disk. The so-called NetMD support (actually it's really just "MD" support) needs drivers, and AFAIK they don't exist (mind you I don't know much, not being a Mac person). only for Windows.

Your machine is defaulting to the other mode, either because you put a formatted "old" disk in when you do your recordings or because the default for completely blank disks is NetMD.

The only way to get HiMD by default with your setup at the moment, without changing the setting is to put in a 1GB disk, since these are not backwards compatible with earlier units, and the RH1 does not need to support the NetMD/StdMD modes. But you should be able to change the settings on the unit to make yourself record in Hi-MD modes quite nicely, even with "standard" 80m disks.

This is one time that reading the manual carefully will yield quite a lot of useful information.

Welcome to the forums!