MZ-RH1 vs RH10

[goodsound12]

I have to admit I am curious as to why the MZ-RH1 is considered to be the holy grail of portable MD walkmans in comparison to other models, specifically the RH10.

I remember vividly when I bought my RH10. At the time the RH1 had just been released, so I had both players available to me at the time new from an authorized retailer. I spent a lot of time in the store that evening putting both of the shops demo models through their paces and agreed with the sales associate that the RH10 was the better performer in terms of sound quality, with the material I had available at the time. For me as an audiophile ultimate sound quality has always been the single most important factor in the consideration or purchase of any music playback device.

The salesman explained very clearly to me all the reasons why he felt that the RH10 was the better machine. Now I am fully open to the idea that since the RH10 was about to be discontinued and the store probably wanted to get rid of it's last couple of units, I did get mine for a lttle less than the RH1 was going for, but certainly no drastic discount, that this was purely rhetoric from the salesman to facilitate the sale of the item the store's owners wanted to move first, but rememeber I was able to fully audition both models prior to purchase and I felt that the RH10 was the better machine. Now several years later, with both products long discontinued, it is the RH1 and not the RH10 that is highly sought after and I am curious as to why this is.

Is it because it was the last of the Hi-MD portables? Is it because of some function or feature that the RH10 and other Hi-MD walkmans didn't posess? Is it because it is rarer or harder to find? Is it some combination of these factors, or is it something else altogether? I realize in the light of the fact that I am currently in the process of selling my RH10 that this may all seem like nothing more than sour grapes, but it is not, I am just truly curious as to what has accounted for the RH1's climb to almost mythical mystique and the high prices they now command in the marketplace today, particulrily in comparison to other Hi-MD walkmans such as the RH10.

[KJ_Palmer]

In a word, it's about uploading. Specifically, legacy uploading. Those of us who have been using MD before Hi-MD was introduced in 2004 had no way directly of transferring our legacy (SP or MDLP) recordings to computer before the RH1 came along, apart from real-time re-recording either directly onto a computer or via CD-R recorder. Even today, many still use legacy MD decks for recording (radio shows and so on), and upload them with their RH1, which no other MD unit can do.

Other features of the RH1 are marginal, and indeed the RH10/910 and other recorders outdo the RH1 in other areas. For example the RH1's little display doesn't show title information, which is a huge disappointment. By contrast the RH10/910 has a huge 7 line display that shows more info than you could shake a stick at (which is quite a lot).

Personally, I was never quite happy with the RH10's analogue-like sound, preferring the RH1's crisp sounding amp, which is nearer to my favourite's the NH900. I also believe the RH1 has a faster transfer rate and and superior recording facilities, though I've never used it for recording.

However, the ability to upload particularly SP recordings (albeit in a different format) was what many older MD users craved, and practically begged Sony to provide, for many years and at last it arrived in the shape of the RH1. Hence the 'holy grail' idea.

[goodsound12]

Ahhh, I see. That makes a lot of sense.

Funny, for me the analogue type of sound from my RH10 is exactly why I picked it over the RH1's crisper sound. By the way I completely agree with your asessment of the basic sound characteristics of those three players. It all comes down to personal preference when it comes to ones perception of sound quality.

On another note it would appear that I may indeed be out of whack for what I am asking for my RH10 and the Hi-MD discs that go with it. There is a current auction on e-bay for one right now, that ends in a couple of days, but that one is for the player and AC adaptor only nothing else, so not really a fair comparison. Still it will be interesting to see what the final bid on that no reserve auction is. Any suggestions on what would be realistic, FAIR, prices for these items?

[Soundbox]

I have an MZ-RH1 and an analogue amp MZ-NH700. The sound is different in both and which I use depends on the music. For something well encoded / recorded the NH700 does very well and sounds like my tape walkman in a (good) way however if there is some music with a lower than optimum bitrate that can make the NH700 show compression artefacts the RH1 will play these tracks much better. Also the RH1 shines with good headphones where the bass extension shines through.

But both are good and the main difference is the uploading with RH1.

[goodsound12]

Maybe I should start an e-bay auction for mine.

Check out this auction from Califronia. Just the Rh10 itself and the matching AC adaptor, nothing else. No Sonicstage, no USB cable, no remote, no carrying pouch, no original packaging, no AA battery power source. It still has over 25 hours to go.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-Minidisc-Recorder-MZ-RH10-HI-MD-/111001865924?pt=US_Personal_MiniDisc_Recorder&hash=item19d83a0ec4

Wow. Now I know I'm not asking too much for my unit that is in similar condition and comes with all the original packaging and accessories and extras and freebies.

The thing is I'd really rather not go the e-bay route. I just want to find an enthusiast who wants a fair deal on a great little portable without a lot of fuss.

[Azureal]

I was looking at that one last night and it has jumped a hundred dollars since then. The RH10 is a desirable unit, I don't think you'll have any trouble selling it.

[goodsound12]

I was looking at that one last night and it has jumped a hundred dollars since then. The RH10 is a desirable unit, I don't think you'll have any trouble selling it.

I know it's early, sort of, but no real bites yet.

[Azureal]

goodsound12, another difference I have noticed which matters to me is that the MZ-RH10 has no line level output capability.

I always run my units into a headphone amp to drive a quality set of cans and require the line level. (and no, setting the headphone output to 23 or whatever is not a suitable substitute) I primarily use my RH10 for portable carry about and as a down-loader.

I sure love that multi-line OLED display, it is awesome!

I think your price is very reasonable, the difference with eBay is that if you reserve too high, buyers don't bite right away and the fervor can't build, your package posted there as you have posted here would sell easily and hopefully the guy or gal who looses out on the one for sale now will be all over it ...

I have to say that the $275 for 10** Hi-MD 1GB blanks is pretty crazy and it's not you, others are also asking such high prices for them. I probably have a dozen of the 1GB discs myself but I prefer to use the 80 minute variety either for SP recording via optical or formatted as Hi-MD with Hi-SP and occasionally ATRAC3 132k LP.

** Correction: goodsound12 is offering 17 Hi-MD blanks for $275, this is a significantly larger number than I had previously and incorrectly noted .

Edited January 20, 2013 by Azureal

[goodsound12]

goodsound12, another difference I have noticed which matters to me is that the MZ-RH10 has no line level output capability.

I always run my units into a headphone amp to drive a quality set of cans and require the line level. (and no, setting the headphone output to 23 or whatever is not a suitable substitute) I primarily use my RH10 for portable carry about and as a down-loader.

I sure love that multi-line OLED display, it is awesome!

I think your price is very reasonable, the difference with eBay is that if you reserve too high, buyers don't bite right away and the fervor can't build, your package posted there as you have posted here would sell easily and hopefully the guy or gal who looses out on the one for sale now will be all over it ...

I have to say that the $275 for 10 Hi-MD 1GB blanks is pretty crazy and it's not you, others are also asking such high prices for them. I probably have a dozen of the 1GB discs myself but I prefer to use the 80 minute variety either for SP recording via optical or formatted as Hi-MD with Hi-SP and occasionally ATRAC3 132k LP.

Thanks Azureal. Yes I had forgotten about the lack of a practical line level ouptut, most likely due to the fact that I have never attempted to use my RH10 in that fashion. I see how that could be a limiting factor for many users.

BTW just for the sake of clarity, I would like to point out that my $275 asking price is for 17 Hi-MD discs not 10, two of which are factory sealed. The Hi-MD discs, back when they were available at retailers, sold for around $12 a piece, or more, up here in the Great White North(Canada) while the last two five packs I purchased from Sony directly online, at the tail end of their inventory, cost me $55CDN funds each. I put some effort and research into the whole process before setting my asking price for the discs and feel that they are priced somewhat if not significantly lower than what is avialable now and consequently reasonable when you consider how scarce they are becoming and what I paid for them originally. Regardless of all that I am open to offers as long as they are reasonable. With all due respect to everyone here, and at the considerable risk of alienating some, it has been my experience that quite often high level enthusiasts, such as those that frequent sites of this type, are more often than not looking for the extraordianry deal and are much less interested in items priced at fair market value or slightly below. This is just a personal observation and not meant to insult any of the members here. There are plenty of people who are not enthusiast members of sites of this nature who operate in this manner as well. I understand that everyone wants to get the best possible deal that they can, it's only human nature, but I'm simply not interested in giving this stuff away at well below current market value.

I too have utilized the standard 80 minute Sony Premium Gold mindiscs in Hi-MD mode on my RH10 but find that when recording in PCM( my favoured method) the severe reduction in available recording time combined with a percieved loss of sound quality, in comparison to the 1GB Hi-MD discs, made that option highly undesireable for me.

[Azureal]

goodsounds12,

My apologies for misstating the quantity of your Hi-MD discs for sale. 17 disks for $275 is significantly more than 10 for the same price. For some reason I had the lower incorrect count in my brain and that's what I typed!

I think your asking price is reasonable considering two are brand new and 15 lightly used. It just amazes me how much folks are asking and getting for these 1GB blanks these days. I saw one seller on eBay this past week asking like $235 for 5! This is the first time I had seen such an unbelievable price for so few discs.

I recall purchasing five 1GB blanks a at local Sony retailer in 2004 when I purchased my first Hi-MD recorder, the MZ-NH1. I paid less than five dollars per disc back then! A couple of years later, I bought five more from an online retailer and paid around six dollars per disc.

You are absolutely right about the need to have the 1GB disks for performing PCM recording. The 80 minute variety only holds like 26 minutes or something which is inadequate for any real live concert recording, etc.

It's interesting that you note a perceivable difference in sound quality between the two disc types. I have never done a comparison so I can't really comment. I wonder, if this is indeed the case, it may be related to the way the data is stored because I know that the science for Hi-MD media data storage does differ in some manner from that of older MD media data storage when used in Hi-MD mode.

I updated my previous post to reflect my mistaken comment about the quantity of discs you have for sale.

Regards,

[goodsound12]

Azureal;

In terms of the sound quality differences, it also occurs to me that this should not be the case. I fully concede that it is entirely possible that the difference in sound quality I hear is not actually real. I did say that it was a "perceived" difference and to elaborate a little further, it was very subtle. I Doubt if I could consistantly identify which was which in a controlled blind test, although I have recorded the same source material to both disc types in PCM and did some comparsion listening to come to this conclusion, however I admit this was a purrely subjective evaluation and some expectation bias may be at play here. I found the same between recordings done in PCM and the next best option available except when the source material was of a higher resolution, say recordings of SACD and DVD-Audio media directly from the analogue outputs of my universal player, then I found the difference to be slightly more pronounced. This one would seem to make a little more sense. Despite the shorter word length used in PCM in comparison to Atrac3plus (16bits compared to 24bits) the lack of any compression with redording in PCM should still theoretically more than compensate, but perhaps my logic is faulty on this.

[Azureal]

I made a few recordings from my SACD player (via analog out obviously) to SP 292k using my JA20ES and again using HiSP 256k with my MZ-NH1. They both sounded amazing and I don't recall which I liked more. The SACD sure has an amazing dynamic range and the MD is such a flexible recording medium that it can capture that and produce some pretty amazing results. With the HiSP on a 1GB disk you can store quite a bit of music with a very high quality.

[Kona702]

I'm a little fuzzy about what you mean by "legacy recordings." By stating you cant transfer "legacy" recordings to a PC with the RH-10, are you saying you can't transfer optical recordings made on another device in SP, LP2, or LP4 mode to a PC via the RH-10? Is this true?

I own an RH-10 and absolutely LOVE IT!!! I can't test however whether or not I can transfer optical recordings made on another unit in LP2, or LP4 mode to a PC via the RH-10 because I lost my standard MD recorder and all the SP, LP2, and LP4 discs I owned in a fire about a month and a half ago :*-(...

I still have my minidisc deck that only records in SP mode but I haven't made any recordings on the new discs I purchased after the

fire, I have just been using the RH-10 in HI-MD mode, and also using it to record in Net-MD mode in SP from the computer to play back on the deck.

Maybe ill try to record a disc with the deck tomorrow in SP and try to upload it via the RH-10 and let you know.

Also this is the first I've heard about SACD, I googled this technology and it seems pretty cool. I have a Sony 5 disc DVD/CD changer and I wonder if it will play SACD's. The model is DVP-NC655P. I'm going to download the user manual from Sony's website and check it out.

**UPDATE** Aww Bummer!! : The Sony 'NC655P does not play SACDs!

One more question: if I can play SACD's with this unit, it has an optical out. Does the optical cable carry 5.1 channels to my receiver? Or do I need to use the digital coaxial out?

Everyone's help and feedback is greatly appreciated!!

Thanks,

Sean

[sfbp]

Sorry but exactly ONE unit (actually it has two model numbers but it's the same beast) allows upload of LP2, LP4 and SP. Actually, I tell a little white lie. If you can download LP2 or LP4 recordings to a HiMD (1GB or 80m reformatted), then THOSE SAME RECORDINGS can really be uploaded to a PC from any HiMD machine.

The RH1 (or M200) can upload legacy disks made by a deck or a NetMD (there's another little problem with the latter but it's all about second generation copies of things). The RH10 and 910 (and their mac brothers the M100 and M10 respectively) can not upload LP2, LP4 and SP from a "regular" disk.

[Kona702]

Thanks for the quick reply!

[Kona702]

I just recorded an album from factory CD from my NC655P optically to my MDS-JE630 MD deck (in SP format of course). I could see the tracks when I put the disc in my RH10 on Sonicstage, but as you said it wouldn't transfer them from the RH-10 to the computer. It would only play them through the headphones attached to the RH10 when I clicked the file.

In the scenario that I just described with the recording to the 630, the RH1 will transfer these tracks to the PC?

I'm kind of disappointed because when I purchased the RH10, I thought that it had this capability. The specs for this device from Sony are very misleading!

I had a choice to buy this or the RH1 (was only $50 more!!), but I chose the RH10 because of the 5 Line OLED display which I must say IS GORGEOUS! I would have decided differently and most likely purchased the RH1 if I knew then what I know now.

Also, I find that when I record a track with the JE630 in SP format, and the same track on the RH10 (all optical from same source)...that even in Linear PCM, the SP from the 630 sounds better (both compared and played on the RH10 with good headphones). I thought that PCM was supposed to be the holy grail in MD format, but I like the sound of the SP from the 630 better...BUMMER!!!

[sfbp]

Clearly you need BOTH units (master plot by Sony, dontcha know....?).