SonicStage Problem: Creating ATRAC CD

[Brent Smith]

OK. I've done TWO fresh installs of version 4, and still have the same problem.

Every time I try to burn an ATRAC disc, the software gets up to 69% complete and stays there. I've done some research, and someone said it has to do with mp3 file names. These tracks aren't mp3 files, though! They're taken straight from professionally recorded CDs that are recognized by gracenote.

I have had success burning one ATRAC CD with my 3 Lord of the Rings soundtrack CDs. But these CDs are supposed to hold a lot more than that.

When I open the program, most of the time it tells me that I have untitled tracks, but I don't. When I stop the transfer process (after hours and hours at 69%), I get the message that the "untitled" track couldn't be dealt with (or something to that effect).

Anyone else with this problem?

[jonny mac]

Is it the same track every time? Try transferring different music.

[chris_caudy]

I've had a similar problem just trying to burn an ATRAC CD from imported CD tracks, solved it (to a degree) by downgrading to SS3.4. Couldn't see anything wrong with the titles of the files as imported into the library though.

[peterjf]

I often have the same issue with 'untitled' tracks when transferring tracks to (and deleting tracks from) my HD5 and HD1. I suspect that a related issue sometimes causes database problems on my players, in that transferred albums sometimes will not play ('cannot play track error' or similar words display on the player). If this happens, I have to delete the affected albums and re-transfer them, which usually sorts out the problem.

When I had to re-initialise the HD5 a few weeks ago, this issue also stopped me from transferring the music to the player. The player was checked on re-connection (which is normal), but the check would not complete. The only way I could get round the problem was create a new SS library with one CD in it, connect the player to enable the check to take place, and then restore my main library using the SS backup tool. (Incidentally, on the subject of the backup tool, has anyone else ever experienced the situation of the online verification server not responding, and therefore being unable to restore? A bit of a pain if you plan a restore at a specific time - for example, overnight.)

I suspect that there is a gremlin somewhere in my SS music library, as I had to re-import everything when I had DRM trouble last year. I suspect that one of the old albums did not delete properly although all the old tracks were deleted, and that this is somehow throwing a spanner into the works.

(Edit) - I should have added that all mu music is in ATRAC 64KB/s

Edited July 26, 2006 by peterjf

[grenert]

OK. I've done TWO fresh installs of version 4, and still have the same problem.

Every time I try to burn an ATRAC disc, the software gets up to 69% complete and stays there. I've done some research, and someone said it has to do with mp3 file names. These tracks aren't mp3 files, though! They're taken straight from professionally recorded CDs that are recognized by gracenote.

I had a similar problem with SS 4.0. I think there is some bug with creating ATRAC CDs with that program. I was never able to get CD burning to work. I then installed SS 3.4, and it worked! I don't think I'm missing anything with the older program, since the main updates were to add the Connect store (which I don't use) and features for the newer hard drive MP3 players. You might as well try the older version, which I think can be downloaded from this site somewhere.

Is there any particular reason why you're burning an ATRAC disc? You could always use a different program to burn MP3 CDs, which your player should also be able to read. The main reasons for going with ATRAC are better sound quality (subjective; debateable if this is really true when compared to a good MP3 codec like LAME), better battery life (definitely true), and gapless playback. If you already have your music in ATRAC, then that of course is a good reason to stick with it.

Cheers.

-J. P.

[moshel]

i tried creating atrac CD with SOnic Stage version 2.3 and version 4 but with both of them i had this problem only.

btw is it possible to first convert the tracks into atrac format and then write it to a cd using software like Nero?

does it have the same effect as cd created directly frm SS?

[grenert]

i tried creating atrac CD with SOnic Stage version 2.3 and version 4 but with both of them i had this problem only.

btw is it possible to first convert the tracks into atrac format and then write it to a cd using software like Nero?

does it have the same effect as cd created directly frm SS?

For what it's worth, I could not create an ATRAC CD using version 4.0. However, version 3.4 worked fine.

You can only create an ATRAC CD using Sonic Stage. If you try to burn a CD of ATRAC files using Nero, the CD cannot be read by your player.

Like I said before, unless you have a good reason to create an ATRAC CD, it is often a lot easier to use Nero or some other program to create MP3 CDs.

[Grendel]

I am having the same problem with 4.0

Where might i DL 3.4?

[Guest Stuge]

Where might i DL 3.4?

*SonicStage ver 3.4 (Full version ) can be downloaded from here

*But you will need to register at http://forums.minidisc.org to download SonicStage ver3.4(It will only take you a minute to register )

[JustAnUnCoolCat]

Interesting, will have to try this out on SS 4.0, since i still occassionally have to burn ATRAC CD's when i do have to use the old D-NE's.

*edited, since Sturge has already pointed out the source at MDCF*

Edited August 16, 2006 by JustAnUnCoolCat

[SimKill]

Even I was having the same problem...for my player.

Dumb thing gets stuck at 69%...

And in Connect you can't create ATRAC CDs so now I guess I'll download SS3.4...

[JustAnUnCoolCat]

The bit about not being able to read Nero generated discs on the CDP's.

Like i said before, not done any discs with SS 4 yet, but back in the days when all we had was the dreaded SS Simple Burner 1.0 AE ...

*shudders at the memory of...*

Back then, and i was using a D-NE1 CDP, i used to burn my ATRAC CD's using SS SB to a CD-RW and image the RW's contents to an ISO or NRG for long term storage on a network drive.

Then i used to, as frequently as needed, simply burn the ISO or Nero image to a CD-R whenever i needed a new fresh ATRAC CD copy to use (always ended up losing one somewhere at work).

So it's certain, in my experience, that you can indeed burn a copy of the content of a ATRAC CD using Nero and the disc be readable in an ATRAC CD Walkman.

Note, mind, i used HQ media.. never sh*tty cheapo stuff.. the D-NE series aint too tolerent (in my experience) of junk-grade CD-R media, they also can be temperamental handlers of ultra-speed rated CD-RW's.

'Tom Kat'

[SimKill]

is there anyway to directly get an iso from SS, or can we burn it to a virtual disc...

[JustAnUnCoolCat]

Well, strictly speaking, SS does not image an ISO (or any other known disk imaging format) as such when it burns an ATRAC CD ..

What it does do, however, in a temp folder (and since it's been a while, i forget which folder), it stores temporary copies of the ATP files (aka the ATRAC music files) and eventually the indexing and other aux files it puts onto the CD media.

So, assuming maybe that a simulate then burn option is available (aka allowing you to do a write simulation, not actually burning a disc.. but otherwise the system goes under actual writing and data throughput load as for a real operation), you could gather the temporary files as they finish writing in the temp folder.

How i would try this, if i were so inclined to attempt it (not, as it goes, happy enough to burn to an RW, and do ultra-speed burns to CD-R using an NRG/BIN/ISO rip taken from the intemediate RW) :-

1. Burn the content to an RW for reference.

2. Whilst the RW is burning (select the slowest burn speed, to give you time to act), start gathering the data files written in the temp folder.

3. Compare all the temps with the file content of the ATRAC CD burnt to RW.

If you have all the files harvested from the temp folder equal to that on the RW, then from the RW version you will be able to figure out how to set out the data layout (files and folder layout).

Then, technically, assuming all was equal and things worked out, you can potentially then assemble an ATRAC CD rom simply by creating the appropriate content using harvested files from the temp... just keep using an RW as outlined above to give SS something to write to whilst it goes through the motions.

The actual content, in disc terms, of an ATRAC CD rom is nothing more than a common ISO Data CD (aka nothing proprietry) acting as a container for the simulated 'Hi-MD style' manner of arranging proprietry format+exts files that is where ATRAC CD differs from all the rest of the ATRAC3/ATRAC3Plus native devices in terms of how the audio content and indexs etc are stored.

Take any good data extractor or imager soft for CD/DVD data/video media, and try imaging a file from an actual burnt ATRAC CD and you'll see it's the files themselves that are proprietry content (aka they need the right decode handlers etc, the right hardware/software decode/player) and apart from simulating what is essentially the common base folder and files layout to most Hi-MD and ATRAC3Plus devices, it's over and above that.. simply an ISO CD..

Roll on the day a software player that implements reading ATRAC CD roms, or even DVD equiv (no reason why the theme cannot be expanded to DVD in both media written terms and also a future DVD unit or later implement by firmware to a firmware upgradable Sony DVD unit).

Then, i suspect, ATRAC CD users will be doubly happy cat spirits..., as it would sure be nice to be able to drop the ATRAC CD into a ROM drive and play the lil beggar back without having to have (by necessity) an ATRAC CD hardware deck around.

Remember, folks, whilst many of us do have the freedom to listen to a portable/personal audio player on cans at work, a heck of a lot dont.. but for those who can't due to work regs and policies.. they often get away with playing back audio on PC's and Mac's - so whilst they may have to leave their ATRAC CDP with their bags and coats, if they had the luxury of a software player, they could still carry the ATRAC CD media to their PC's and Mac's to listen with).

'Tom Kat'

[SimKill]

Wow man that was a lengthy and very very descriptive post. Thanks for explaining it...

I've got an idea, would it be viable or not is the question, if it is then I'll follow it up with a practical.

When you open an atrac disc in my computer, you get a bunch of files which I assume are the SonicStage CD-Text (For the lack of better a term) and a folder in which files are named 00001.ATP or something but in numbered ascending order and with the ATP extension.

Also in Sonicstage there's an option to set where your temp files are located, using which we could just copy those ATP files into another location. But the problem arises when we try to get the Sonicstage text files, which I have no idea of how to get. Would this be possible.

What's the difference between an ATP extension ATRAC file and an OMA extension ATRAC file. Is there a possibility to know why just drag-and-drop of OMA files into a disc yields fruitless results, ultimately both of them are ATRAC anyway.

Also I am planning to try to delete the text files and only keep the Hi-MD folder and all the numbered files in it and try to play it in my CD player(It's a car player, CDX F5510X), BTW it doesn't do gapless either.

[JustAnUnCoolCat]

Good that you figured out the concept of the harvesting from the temp dir/folder bit - kinda hard to explain, and to be honest i was speculating over it's potential - lost interest personally in experimenting on that side.

The ATP files are, indeed, the compressed audio files.

The rest are indexing and CD-TEXT type (but not literally) DB files the player uses to get info from..

I'll have a go, out of curiosity, in harvesting the temp generated ATP's and try dumping them to a CD-RW and see if either the D-NE1 or D-NE20 can read the disc content without the index etc files.

Good to hear of an in-car ATRAC CD user appearing here (virtually noone using a ATRAC CD compatible car deck has shown up around this forum before, and likewise for owners of the ATRAC CD boomboxes either...).

But what i will say now, is as long as you use sane and rational bit-rate/codec combos ( i prefer to stick with ATRAC3 132.. which, for ATRAC CD, is worth in the region of 8 audio discs+ to a 700Mb CD-R/CD-RW), i highly doubt you'll be dissapointed with audio off an ATRAC CD in the car deck.

At the end of the day, ATRAC encodings sound as good as what you hear them through.. and as good as you find the best bit-rate/codec combo for the tracks on a track by track basis.

Do not be afraid to mix and match - if you find a track seems to audition best in ATRAC3Plus 256K and most do likewise at ATRAC3 105K, feel free to build the disc up in whatever way (combinations wise) that gives the best results in practical audio terms.

One of my tricks, for when i dump my radio progs on ATRAC (aka i record the shows i do, now and then, and assign one recording to a ATRAC group), is to split the audio (one long continous recording) into talk/voice sections and music sections.., voice sections can often happily exist at 48k or 64K ATRAC3plus (which is a space saver) and i encode the music sections according to the audio itself. Then i just assemble the sections (encoded) in SS and dump to MD or ATRAC CD (mostly MD these days, when i aint using the NWA..)

Its not commonly advice or a method most ATRAC users will discuss or approach, mind, but it's an effective legacy method i used outside of ATRAC to max out the scope of mp3 and WMA CD-ROM's.. and works well (as it would do) for ATRAC too.

After all, the object of compiling a collection of stuff to ATRAC CD (or compressed audio CD-ROM in other circles) is to make it all practical and save on having lots of discs floating around )

Double check the manual for your car deck - most later (2nd gen onwards) ATRAC CD decks had a Seamless option in the user adjustments that when engaged (not as standard usually) that was the gapless play support. Note, it's seamless 'gapless' on MD and ATRAC CD, not gap-removal or cross-faded 'gapless' fudges like most a.n.other brand decks employ )

Seamless type 'gapless' is, to compressed audio, what DAO-Cut 'no 2 sec pause between tracks' audio CDs are to the CD world.

Good luck, and if i get time, i'll try to hunt through the manual for your deck in case the seamless option is hidden away somewhere.

ATP's are the proprietry form of OMA/OMG's, in effect, that's almost exclusive to ATRAC CD - think of them as copy protected and encrypted OMG/OMA files, as that's more or less about the nearest thing i can describe them too.

Take a track, in OMA or OMG form from your library, open it up in a hex edit.. then open it's ATP counterpart harvested from a CD Burn, and you'll find the content (in displayed data terms) highly different.. like they are probably encrypted.

'Tom Kat'

Edited August 21, 2006 by JustAnUnCoolCat

[SimKill]

The seamless thing I'll check it out.

I am just overwhelmed by the length of your post, it'll take me time to absorb all the material in your post...

[pata2001]

Double check the manual for your car deck - most later (2nd gen onwards) ATRAC CD decks had a Seamless option in the user adjustments that when engaged (not as standard usually) that was the gapless play support. Note, it's seamless 'gapless' on MD and ATRAC CD, not gap-removal or cross-faded 'gapless' fudges like most a.n.other brand decks employ )

Seamless type 'gapless' is, to compressed audio, what DAO-Cut 'no 2 sec pause between tracks' audio CDs are to the CD world.

Seamless/gapless on AtracCD is only available on AtracCD PCDPs, NOT on the jukeboxes nor car decks.

[NickyJay]

Does anybody here still use Atrac CDs? What results are you guys getting? Are there any issues I need to know about?

Thanks

[sfbp]

Yes.

Excellent.

You can currently only play them back on Car headunit and a few Home Stereo models (very few).

When I get back to it (moving house) am working on a decoder to allow to be played in the PC.