Signal settings for Optical connection and MD recording?

[Tom B]

What is the best setting for digital input to an MD recorder?

I have a Sound Blaster card in my PC with various settings for its optical digital output, which is input to the MD recorder (in this case a model MZN10). Some settings work, and some do not.

The highest level of setting on the SB card has a "Master Sampling Rate: 96 kHz." and "Bit Depth: 24 Bits."

The lowest level of setting on the SB card has a "Master Sampling Rate: 48 kHz." and "Bit Depth: 16 Bits."

I have discovered anything with a Master Sampling Rate of 98 kHz. results in an error message of "NO SIGNAL" displayed on the MD recorder. Settings with a rate of 48 kHz. work, with either "Bit Depth: 24 Bits" or "Bit Depth: 16 Bits" selected.

Will there be a difference when one record mode or another is used, and advantages or disadvantages with selection of 24 or 16?

Which should be selected? Is there some practical advantage or disadvantage to either one?

(I note the specs of the MD recorder in its manual on page 80, shows

"Sampling frequency 44.1 kHz" and "Sampling rate converter 32 kHz/44.1 kHz/48 kHz." The recording mode - on p. 129, mentions 132, 105 and 66 kbps. The recorder has recording modes of SP, LP2 and LP4 "mono" - - page 75 of the manual).

Thanks

[PhilippeC]

With my desktop with a Creative X-Fi* Platinum soundcard, I used to record in real time from my digital coaxial output to my Sony MDS-JB980 deck. The recording level of the deck was always fixed at 0.00db for all recordings after I decided to use with my player foobar2000 the "replaygain" plugin to normalize all my tracks (by albums). My JB980 is able to change the gain of a track but I never use it. I used the Replaygain ("89dB SPL") default configuration. See here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReplayGain, and there : http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=ReplayGain_1.0_specification

This plugin (replaygain) has been plainly useful when I started to record MDs digitally with 24bit-96kHz audio files as source. Instead, it would have been terrible to check recording level as the sound was sometimes very dynamic (too high). I think this is not come from a 24-96 quality but from the studio master recording level itself. Replaygain saved me from any splitting hairs recording level problems.

(*) X-Fi crystallizer set at minimum 75% most of the time

[MDietrich]

What is the best setting for digital input to an MD recorder?

I have a Sound Blaster card in my PC with various settings for its optical digital output, which is input to the MD recorder (in this case a model MZN10). Some settings work, and some do not.

The highest level of setting on the SB card has a "Master Sampling Rate: 96 kHz." and "Bit Depth: 24 Bits."

The lowest level of setting on the SB card has a "Master Sampling Rate: 48 kHz." and "Bit Depth: 16 Bits."

I have discovered anything with a Master Sampling Rate of 98 kHz. results in an error message of "NO SIGNAL" displayed on the MD recorder. Settings with a rate of 48 kHz. work, with either "Bit Depth: 24 Bits" or "Bit Depth: 16 Bits" selected.

Will there be a difference when one record mode or another is used, and advantages or disadvantages with selection of 24 or 16?

Which should be selected? Is there some practical advantage or disadvantage to either one?

(I note the specs of the MD recorder in its manual on page 80, shows

"Sampling frequency 44.1 kHz" and "Sampling rate converter 32 kHz/44.1 kHz/48 kHz." The recording mode - on p. 129, mentions 132, 105 and 66 kbps. The recorder has recording modes of SP, LP2 and LP4 "mono" - - page 75 of the manual).

Thanks

If you want to set your Creative card to the only format the MD stores in, set it to 24 bit and 44.1 kHz. It cannot ever work with 96 kHz. Not ever. 48 kHz are bad too, because your MD recorder has to resample it to 44.1 kHz. Save that work for your PC, that one is much better at it.

Recording in 44.1 kHz will only work if you disable any DSP inside your card. Otherwise, everything will be resampled from 44.1 to 48 and back to 44.1. This process (as performed by the Creative) will add distortions so it´s important to switch all DSPs off.

Why 24 bit? Because your MD recorder is capable of using this bit-depth to gain a sonic advantage. Disadvantage? None.

The suggestion from PhilippeC to use ReplayGain is very reasonable, that way you can encode all your music with correct RMS levels (I´d recommend 'Album' mode).

[Tom B]

Will try these things - - I just wish this had been documented in the Sony user manual for the product. (More, later)

[sfbp]

I just found something quite interesting on the minidisc.org site, regarding the MXD-D400, here:

http://minidisc.org/part_Sony_MXD-D400.html

Particularly, on looking at the manual(s) for this, the following claim seems quite surprising. I have now got a device capable of outputting 96kHz and could hook it to the analog input of my D400.

"ADC (96khz, 24 bit)"

Bearing in mind OP's question, this may seem irrelevant, but perhaps it applies to the digital input too? IF it's correct, it may be indirectly related (I don't quite see how!) to why LP4 plays better on this deck than any other I have. Mind you I haven't done an A/B comparison with the JB980 which is also Type-S.

Does anyone have any opinion as to the correctness of the above assertion? I bet MDietrich has something to say....

[PhilippeC]

Mind you I haven't done an A/B comparison with the JB980 which is also Type-S.

I will be glad you do so listening / recording tests as I have a JB980 too. Pham Cu has one MDX-D400 to sell, I still think to take it one day but I have others priorities.

[MDietrich]

Particularly, on looking at the manual(s) for this, the following claim seems quite surprising. I have now got a device capable of outputting 96kHz and could hook it to the analog input of my D400.

"ADC (96khz, 24 bit)"

Bearing in mind OP's question, this may seem irrelevant, but perhaps it applies to the digital input too? IF it's correct, it may be indirectly related (I don't quite see how!) to why LP4 plays better on this deck than any other I have. Mind you I haven't done an A/B comparison with the JB980 which is also Type-S.

Does anyone have any opinion as to the correctness of the above assertion? I bet MDietrich has something to say....

She has

You could try an experiment: fed the D400 a 96 kHz signal via its optical input. Connect the optical output of the D400 to a 96 kHz capable receiver/amp. See if the display of the unit light up and says '96 kHz'. My Sony STR-DB 830 would do so.

But I very much doubt that the D400 gives out 96 kHz. You see, it´s usually this way: they use these ADC/DAC (the D400 does have ADC/DAC all in one IC) just because they might yield better quality when working with 44.1 kHz. Either way, the MD cannot ever handle anything else but 44.1 kHz.

Maybe Sony implemented an upsampling algorithm but I very much doubt that, IME they were never fond of upsampling anyhow.

But all of this doesn´t say anything about the sound of the D400. And I bet that it sounds very, very well.

[sfbp]

Don't misunderstand me.... the D400 doesn't output 96Khz. I thought your previous point was that one can deduce the bitness of the signal by recording analogue. I'll have to reread your notes.

I have a soundcard that outputs 96, I have an upsampler that outputs 96 (Nehringer) which is the best I've heard LP4 played EXCEPT for the D400, and I have a receiver that accepts 96.

So it sounds like the 96Khz upsampling internally to the D400 probably does the same as the Behringer.

[Tom B]

A footnote: If Sony were still in business with these products, I would bring up this topic with their representatives who manage their demos at conventions, particularly the CES. There used to be Audio magazines that would jump at the opportunity for meaningful articles on topics like this. I'm trying to head in the direction of getting the best experience I can have from the equipment I have.

[Tom B]

Recording in 44.1 kHz will only work if you disable any DSP inside your card. Otherwise, everything will be resampled from 44.1 to 48 and back to 44.1. This process (as performed by the Creative) will add distortions so it´s important to switch all DSPs off.

The suggestion from PhilippeC to use ReplayGain is very reasonable, that way you can encode all your music with correct RMS levels (I´d recommend 'Album' mode).

So far I have not been able to find settings for my Sound Blaster card that lets me "disable DSP" or set it for 44.1 kHz. The sound card is a model SB1040EF ("Blaster X-Fi Extreme Audio"). It comes with a control program that includes a help utility that applies to more than this model. This includes more than the control program, will do. It says

• Some choices are different for selected audio devices.

• The range of sampling rates available may vary with the mode currently selected.

I also do not see anything there about "ReplayGain."

[MDietrich]

Don't misunderstand me.... the D400 doesn't output 96Khz. I thought your previous point was that one can deduce the bitness of the signal by recording analogue. I'll have to reread your notes.

I have a soundcard that outputs 96, I have an upsampler that outputs 96 (Nehringer) which is the best I've heard LP4 played EXCEPT for the D400, and I have a receiver that accepts 96.

So it sounds like the 96Khz upsampling internally to the D400 probably does the same as the Behringer.

Now I don´t understand

What device is doing the upsampling? The D400 or the upsampler? I really doubt that it´s the D400.

You can deduce the bit depth of a signal most easily when recording it with a PC, then looking at the signal in WaveLab. If one doesn´t have WaveLab you record a 1000 Hz sine that has a volume of -90 dB. With 16 bit system you´ll get a very staircase like result, with 24 bits it looks like a sinewave.

So far I have not been able to find settings for my Sound Blaster card that lets me "disable DSP" or set it for 44.1 kHz. The sound card is a model SB1040EF ("Blaster X-Fi Extreme Audio"). It comes with a control program that includes a help utility that applies to more than this model. This includes more than the control program, will do. It says

• Some choices are different for selected audio devices.

• The range of sampling rates available may vary with the mode currently selected.

I also do not see anything there about "ReplayGain."

There is no setting 'disable DSP'.

You just switch all DSPs off. DSP like EAX, Hall, EQ, Crystalizer and whatnot (all of them can be enabled or disabled). Then you set your samplerate according to the samplerate of the MD: 44.1 kHz. I know for a fact that all of this can be done with an X-Fi Extreme Audio... assuming that you have installed the soundcards' driver. You can find all these settings within this configuration panel:

ReplayGain is done in the software you use to playback your music, not within the card.

[sfbp]

My point is this: if the D400 advertises (not in the specs, just that minidisc.org page, so who knows?) 96kHz ADC then maybe on playback the MD gets upsampled too? That might be one way of explaining just how good the deck sounds. We're not talking about recording here. You should look at the circuits.... probably understanding more than silly ol' moi.

I also wondered if the 96 (or 88) comes in when copying CD->MD at high speed, which that deck does nicely. But that's another whole discussion.

This upsampling business is interesting. I have struggled with LP4 playback on and off for ages, and know there are certain combos which work beautifully, and others which make it sound dreadful.

[Tom B]

My point is this: if the D400 advertises (not in the specs, just that minidisc.org page, so who knows?) 96kHz ADC then maybe on playback the MD gets upsampled too? That might be one way of explaining just how good the deck sounds. We're not talking about recording here. You should look at the circuits.... probably understanding more than silly ol' moi.

I also wondered if the 96 (or 88) comes in when copying CD->MD at high speed, which that deck does nicely. But that's another whole discussion.

This upsampling business is interesting. I have struggled with LP4 playback on and off for ages, and know there are certain combos which work beautifully, and others which make it sound dreadful.

Maybe, just maybe, there are different sampling rates for different Sony MD recorders? I don't know - - but do know I can record on one and play back on another, of the several that I own.

[MDietrich]

My point is this: if the D400 advertises (not in the specs, just that minidisc.org page, so who knows?) 96kHz ADC then maybe on playback the MD gets upsampled too? That might be one way of explaining just how good the deck sounds. We're not talking about recording here. You should look at the circuits.... probably understanding more than silly ol' moi.

I also wondered if the 96 (or 88) comes in when copying CD->MD at high speed, which that deck does nicely. But that's another whole discussion.

This upsampling business is interesting. I have struggled with LP4 playback on and off for ages, and know there are certain combos which work beautifully, and others which make it sound dreadful.

It doesn´t seem to be upsampled. This is the data sheet of one of the DACs (the D400 has two): http://www.akm.com/akm/en/file/datasheet/AK4584VQ.pdf

It´s a converter built for DVD players and other multimedia units, it can even detect (but not decode) Dolby Digital and DTS streams.

I assume that it´s just a good (and cheap enough) resampler used by Sony and that its 192/96/88.2/48 kHz capabilities are dormant.

The CD->MD high speed copying hasn´t anything to do with samplerate, it´s just data which is transferred with high speed (and a drop in sound quality I might add since the ATRAC encoder now has to compromise because of speed).

But I have to ask: why would you try the best LP4 playback anyway? Those recordings have been compressed so strongly that nothing can return them to former glory. 96 kHz certainly doesn´t help, it probably makes everything worse.

[sfbp]

In haste:

1. It's fairly clear that the clock gets doubled or quadrupled during copying. I forget how I know this, but look at the schematics of various combo MD machines (eg the MDS-W1, MXD-D3 and so on) as well as the D400

2. LP4 is perfectly amazing when upsampled. It gets rid of all the nasty artifacts.

If you don't believe me I am tempted to send you some samples

[MDietrich]

If you don't believe me I am tempted to send you some samples

Would you really? Please do then

[sfbp]

Would you really? Please do then

I'll be getting around to it soon. Sorry for any delay.

S