Stuck converting ATRAC to 32bit vista PC (or mac)

[Multigrooves]

Hello all.

I have an:

MZ RH1 player

At least 300 minidiscs (containing vinyl albums/compilations over a period of 6years)

An old Sony vaio 32 bit windows vista

MBP OS 10.7.5

I'm looking to convert the minidiscs - which were recorded on a MDS-JE520 deck either Stereo or Mono - either 320kbs mp3 or .wav files.

I know I can do it via garage band and an optical cable but that = real time. And it's inconvenient when I want to do other things on the MBP. Also I have thousands of vinyl singles that I want to 'rip' onto the MBP's soundcard simultaneously. And anyway isn't this the point of the rh1?

There was a copy of sonic stage on the vista (from the last time I attempted to do this) but it was unresponsive when I plugged in the RH1 in via usb. Sadly I can't quite remember what version it was and I've since removed it.

I want to get the music off the minidiscs swiftly, NOT realtime. How can I achieve this??

Thanks in advance

[SileEeles]

From what I have picked up from this forum, I think the Hi-MD device will do it (Such as the RH-1?) I may be wrong.

You cannot transfer songs from a minidisc to PC, it just wasnt designed to do that, NetMD and most real-time recordings are one-way trips, unless you record them in real-time all the way back. And also as a note on the bit rates, just be aware that 320kbps is not what you'll be getting from the minidisc device, regardless of your original recording method.

Sorry to be the bearer of possibly bad news.

BUT, as I said, I think the RH1 does this. Not 100% sure though. Check other posts on here, someome will have talked about it.

[Syrius]

If you have the RH1, it will work. You just need the right version of Sonic Stage. (3.4, 4.0, or 4.3 may do).

HOWEVER, Windows Vista may be the problem. I've never faced a more troublesome, obtuse and retardedly-coded OS.

I can upload the installers for the Sonicstage versions listed above. Let me know.

[Multigrooves]

Thanks for the replies people. The Vista is borrowed. Based on the last time I tried it I had a feeling it'd be the weak link in the chain.

I'm sure I can get hold of a 32bit XP, too. Could I bother you to ask that you upload SS's for all possibilities and I'll get crackin' here?

Thanks

[sfbp]

No need for uploading, Syrius. The version that is all-in-one-file is here, and should work on everything from XP to 8. Maybe even more than that.

There are also drivers which you may need if you have a 64-bit version, and drivers (which won't matter to you) which will keep the 32-bit upload experience on the RH1 smooth in the event your machine gets loaded with NetMD drivers for older portable units.

I'm pretty sure Vista will work - it's just not very mature system. Same thing always happens when a technological divide of sorts is crossed. Wags have often noted that even numbered versions are born to fail.

[SileEeles]

On the windows 8 front, the driver has difficulty.

At least, I did. I am running Windows 8.1, I downloaded the 64-Bit driver from the downloads section here, and it would not install, because of driver signing or verification or something like that. I had to disable something and put Windows 8 into "test mode" to get the driver installed.

I'm fairly certain I disabled Driver signing/Verifications because 99% of the time I know exactly what it is I'm installing, but there you go. It did not like the NetMD 64-Bit driver.

[sfbp]

That's Windows trying to be "nice and protective" just like Apple has always been

The trick is to turn off driver signing at boot time by hitting F8. For one boot only.

[Multigrooves]

Que?

I'm not the most literate on computers...

Any links anyone?

[SileEeles]

That's Windows trying to be "nice and protective" just like Apple has always been

The trick is to turn off driver signing at boot time by hitting F8. For one boot only.

Oh if only that was possible with Windows 8.1 It was no problem in Windows 8, but after 8.1, the window for pressing F8 is sooooooo microscopicly minute I've yet to manage it. Honetsly I can press F8 like a maniac, nothing. Just boots like normal ¬_¬ I go through the settings and get it to load the recovery menu that way.

For the driver though, I used the comand promt using "bcdedit.exe DISABLE_INTEGRITY_CHECKS" or something similar to that I believe.

[SonicFields]

Just a follow up on those that mention the MZ-RH1 as possibly being capable of uploading to PC. It is a big 'possibly', especially with some of the earlier recordings, Net MDs' etc.

The DRM system still rules whether or not your lifetime transfers have been used up. It doesn't matter whether it's an optical out, coax out, USB or whatever...if it's digital you still have to contend with the DRM system which is built into the file bits - these bits record how many transfers you've made in its lifetime. The only dead certain method is going to be real-time analogue via the line, record or headphones out for those earlier recordings (some will digitally transfer others will not - depends). It's only those recent recordings made with the likes of the MZ-RH1 where you have a relaxation of the DRM system.

Ref Sonic Stage, I've never had problems getting it to work with the Windows System and the latest drivers (incl 64bit OS) on this Forum work ok and recognize all the USB connections with my own gear (JB decks, Net MDs & HiMDs).

Apart from the obvious advantage of digital transfers (where possible) with the MZ-RH1, the Sonic Stage USB link is good more as a control link from the PC for discs held in the decks. They can be real-time monitored, read, played back and recorded via the PC line-in or the USB in (using Xitel) if you've got a poor PC soundcard.

It's good to sit back and listen to your recordings - it's a pity that too much time is spent nowadays just shunting digital media backwards and forwards with it never actually being listened to!

[sfbp]

Oh if only that was possible with Windows 8.1 It was no problem in Windows 8, but after 8.1, the window for pressing F8 is sooooooo microscopicly minute I've yet to manage it. Honetsly I can press F8 like a maniac, nothing. Just boots like normal ¬_¬ I go through the settings and get it to load the recovery menu that way.

For the driver though, I used the comand promt using "bcdedit.exe DISABLE_INTEGRITY_CHECKS" or something similar to that I believe.

Hehe maybe the trick is to pull the plug so that windows complains bitterly when you turn on again, and gives you the option to boot in safe mode etc.....

[sfbp]

Just a follow up on those that mention the MZ-RH1 as possibly being capable of uploading to PC. It is a big 'possibly', especially with some of the earlier recordings, Net MDs' etc.

The DRM system still rules whether or not your lifetime transfers have been used up. It doesn't matter whether it's an optical out, coax out, USB or whatever...if it's digital you still have to contend with the DRM system which is built into the file bits

That's simply not true. If you understand WHEN and WHAT gets encrypted, everything is transferable since we now have ways to beat most of the encryption. Many of the reports of people having trouble with SS arise out of other problems not related to the "protection".

- these bits record how many transfers you've made in its lifetime. The only dead certain method is going to be real-time analogue via the line, record or headphones out for those earlier recordings (some will digitally transfer others will not - depends). It's only those recent recordings made with the likes of the MZ-RH1 where you have a relaxation of the DRM system.

Nonsense. The only thing (apart from silly "Connect" files downloaded from Sony) which is REALLY hard to break is the encryption on NetMD files generated from CD and other sources when transferred to legacy MD (ie not 1GB, and not reformatted legacy disks in HiMD format). And this has been done too, there's just no easily available tool for it at the moment. To be fair to Sony, they wanted to prevent piracy, having made it very easy to make MDs of COMMERCIAL disks.

The only people moaning, in my limited experience, have been those who made copies from someone else's CDs. Tuff beans!

EDIT: I got this backwards. Sorry. I have been known to write rubbish.

The files that can not be recovered are the encrypted ones (encrypted by import, that is) that get stored on HiMD formatted disk. If you decrypt them first, there is no problem. If you choose a format that was never encrypted in the first place (eg Sony's Advanced Atrac Lossless), there is no problem. Note: the lossless part never gets on to the MD, so that is a slightly different issue!

Legacy MDs (not the Hi-MD reformatted ones) are not themselves encrypted - the tricky thing is that the NetMD protocol encrypts them during transfer TO the disk, thereby preventing a generic non-Sony-approved device from scarfing up the data as it emerges from the PC.

Azureal, I don't know why you weren't yelling at me

[SonicFields]

So where is this magic software that overrides the DRM system and enables users to make multiple digital transfers of self-recorded NetMD files?

Perhaps a more accurate explanation as to how it works and how effective it is can be read in the Digital Audio Technology: A guide to CD, MiniDisc, SACD, DVD(A), MP3 & DAT, written by the Sony boys who know what they're talking about!

[Multigrooves]

Just a follow up on those that mention the MZ-RH1 as possibly being capable of uploading to PC. It is a big 'possibly', especially with some of the earlier recordings, Net MDs' etc.

The DRM system still rules whether or not your lifetime transfers have been used up. It doesn't matter whether it's an optical out, coax out, USB or whatever...if it's digital you still have to contend with the DRM system which is built into the file bits - these bits record how many transfers you've made in its lifetime. The only dead certain method is going to be real-time analogue via the line, record or headphones out for those earlier recordings (some will digitally transfer others will not - depends). It's only those recent recordings made with the likes of the MZ-RH1 where you have a relaxation of the DRM system.

Ref Sonic Stage, I've never had problems getting it to work with the Windows System and the latest drivers (incl 64bit OS) on this Forum work ok and recognize all the USB connections with my own gear (JB decks, Net MDs & HiMDs).

Apart from the obvious advantage of digital transfers (where possible) with the MZ-RH1, the Sonic Stage USB link is good more as a control link from the PC for discs held in the decks. They can be real-time monitored, read, played back and recorded via the PC line-in or the USB in (using Xitel) if you've got a poor PC soundcard.

It's good to sit back and listen to your recordings - it's a pity that too much time is spent nowadays just shunting digital media backwards and forwards with it never actually being listened to!

I especially agree with the final sentiments but I also have thousands of vinyl that also need to be recorded. Listening will not be my problem. It's simply time.

No need for uploading, Syrius. The version that is all-in-one-file is here, and should work on everything from XP to 8. Maybe even more than that.

There are also drivers which you may need if you have a 64-bit version, and drivers (which won't matter to you) which will keep the 32-bit upload experience on the RH1 smooth in the event your machine gets loaded with NetMD drivers for older portable units.

I'm pretty sure Vista will work - it's just not very mature system. Same thing always happens when a technological divide of sorts is crossed. Wags have often noted that even numbered versions are born to fail.

Can you or anyone else point me towards a good link?

Thanks

[Azureal]

If I am not mistaken, and Stephen can certainly correct me if necessary, anything recorded in real-time via microphone input, line input or optical input onto any disk in any format can be uploaded to the PC using the RH1.

If the disk was created using NetMD you can only get it onto the PC using realtime playback and recording via optical or line level playback.

With respect to the platform to use for transfer, I would personally suggest either Windows XP or Windows 7 with the 4.3 version of SonicStage located in the download section of the forums here.

[Multigrooves]

thanks

Wish me luck!

[sfbp]

So where is this magic software that overrides the DRM system and enables users to make multiple digital transfers of self-recorded NetMD files?

Perhaps a more accurate explanation as to how it works and how effective it is can be read in the Digital Audio Technology: A guide to CD, MiniDisc, SACD, DVD(A), MP3 & DAT, written by the Sony boys who know what they're talking about!

Please see edit in long post above. Sigh. There is no-such thing as a "self-recorded NetMD file", as by definition, NetMD means it was transferred from the computer, and the result has to be compatible with MDLP and SP units that had no ability to decrypt that data (ie they date from before the NetMD introduction).

The only trick they pulled (quite reasonably, when you think about it) is to make it so that only Sonic Stage can get access to the Track Protect bits on the (legacy MD) disk. This prevented (past tense) users erasing tracks that had (at the time) limited transfer count authorizations. With the introduction of version 4 (maybe before, but I am not going to install 3.4 to find out) all transferred tracks had infinite transfer counts, and it didn't matter if you erased an MD, you lost nothing.

The only remainder (vestigial, like the human tail bone) of this procedure comes when erasing a 1GB disk by formatting in the unit. When you show that "reformatted" disk to Sonic Stage, the system now attempts to recover all the transfer authorizations, which have clearly been stored ON THE REFORMATTED DISK. This quite naturally leads to duck soup in the case that the erasing was being done owing to the target Hi-MD unit giving trouble. When HiMD units fail, it's invariably the 1GB disks which play up. Besides which, legacy disks reformatted to HiMD can always be erased (see below) in an ordinary (legacy) unit.

The other annoying reminder of "Track Protect" is when you try to erase individual tracks that got transferred to a legacy MD using NetMD. The way round this is to keep around one recorder unit that dates from before NetMD, and therefore doesn't know about track protect. You can then use that old unit to erase disks without futzing around with SS.

Oh yes, one more tidbit: if a single bit of a track introduced to (imported), or created by, Sonic Stage, is altered, it magically becomes "not transferable". This should never happen, but unfortunately some evil programs that play MP3's have been known to write extra data in the file when playing it. As well, the advice I gave in another thread about editing .OMA files neglects to mention that, once edited by Sound Forge, those files need to be removed and re-added to Sonic Stage so that the SS database is in sync with the bits in the file. This is something they really should have fixed, but at the time, no one expected these files to get altered. Ever.

Clear as mud?

[SileEeles]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh that explains that then.

The other annoying reminder of "Track Protect" is when you try to erase individual tracks that got transferred to a legacy MD using NetMD. The way round this is to keep around one recorder unit that dates from before NetMD, and therefore doesn't know about track protect. You can then use that old unit to erase disks without futzing around with SS.

That is why my MDS-JE440 can erase discs that were done via NetMD. I always wondered about that.

The things you learn

[SonicFields]

sfbp

Yes ..clear as mud, thanks! My reference to 'self-recorded NetMD files' refer to MD80 discs recorded via analogue mic input to a NetMD recorder.

No, I don't have a problem with that part of the procedure ....it's that old nutshell called 'digital uploading' from MD to PC which tends to be problematic and is often skipped around with the mere mention of using the MZ-RH1 ( the answer to all prayers).

From personal experience the MZ-RH1, together with other NetMD portables and decks will with SS and this Forum's installed driver, recognise, interrogate and control playback on these units of any installed MD via the USB port and will also digitally upload recently recorded analogue mic-in recordings; but try the same procedure with earlier recordings made with the same recorders and similar MD80 discs, then it will still enable operation from SS, but when it comes to a digital upload it's a no-no!

This makes sense in accordance with the DAT reference book which I mentioned above, which states analogue microphone recordings have their file scms 'category' bits encoded as 'master copy' and hence are considered copyrighted with only one digital copy allowed. This is ok of course if the file had been digitally copied onto the PC and stored as the converted WAV file; but if the original computer file was not archived, due to the fact that reliance was better placed on the longevity of the MD itself (which is correct), then you're stuffed, as the single digital copy has been made and the scms copyright bit on the MD file changed to 'no more digital copies'.

So this is the part that requires a detailed explanation of its workaround, and my request for the magic software which will basically strip the scms bits out of the MD file to be able to upload them once the copyright limit has been reached. I note you referred to this 'stripping out of scsms data in one of your other posts by using the file converter ref OMA/oma file differences, and of course WAV files, but failed to mention how you could access the files to be able to do that in the first pace, given the scms limit may prevent this. (I believe you mentioned that WAV files do not encompass metadata.... in fact they can be tagged with metadata in the INFO chunk which I use on a regular basis with the likes of Helium Music Manager... they can store quite a large amount of useful data).

Thanks for info.

[sfbp]

Ah yes, I was forgetting about SCMS. SCMS only allows ONE copy to be made, and if you are right then copies ending up on the MD from certain earlier units have the bits set allowing ZERO copies to be made. I have no idea why. Perhaps that's what I forgot about - that maybe the NetMD-created disks all have the SCMS bits already set for no copy. But this should not happen with disks that were created from microphone. If they were made by digital (optical) input from a stream that already has the "copy once" bit set I can see the problem also happening. Fair enough, right?

However the DECRYPTION has nothing whatsoever to do with SCMS. It applies to data that has been extracted successfully by whatever means, either from CD or from MD, when that data gets stored on the hard disk of your computer. The encryption ensures you can't copy that file onto another machine (sorry to be pedantic, I mean play that file when copied). Apple does exactly the same with ITunes, I think.

Also, Bluecrab has pointed out that SOME CDs already have the no copy bit set. Most don't bother.

I should very much like to get my hands on a disk that won't upload that was made from a mike. Can you spare one? If so we can exchange personal info via PM. I have an SCMS stripper to hand if it is needed and it will show me the bits encoded on the MD. You should probably record it into another device by playing back at x1, if it contains something irreplaceable. I am curious what device and what input made it, too.

In the mean time I will try to intentionally generate disks that cannot be uploaded. Interesting.

[sfbp]

Oh, wait a minute.... I see the problem. You're talking about using something BEFORE the RH1 to upload.

No way, no how. The processing power simply isn't there in those earlier units. And in any event Sony's firmware which is most definitely not flashable, never was, will not permit it. But the trouble we had with driver incompatibility (you can read about if you stick at it long enough) where the upload from RH1 slows to a crawl must arise because the earlier units were not very fast and relied on some sort of polling loop, and NetMD was designed initially as a one-way protocol.

As far as we know, the NetMD driver for RH1 works with all known NetMD devices. However, that of itself doesn't magically upgrade them to being upload-capable. Sorry.