What are the specs on Sony MDS-E10 or E12

[Sargaso]

I can't seem to find any information about what DAC is used in the E10/12 professional decks. Does anyone know what type of DAC is used in these professional type decks? Is it current pulse, Hybrid pulse or other?

[punkrockaddict]

MDS-E10 states in its Manual ->

Frequency response

5 to 20,000 Hz ±0.3dB

Signal-to-noise ratio

Over 98dB during playback

Wow and flutter

Below measurable limit

Couldn´t find anything about the DAC either

[Sargaso]

Thanks for looking.

I was looking for a deck with a current pulse dac and almost bought an MDS-JB940 before I saw all the info about it having a hybrid pulse dac instead of current plulse. Then I thought that the professional decks should have the best of everything but apparently Sony doesn't want anyone to know what's in them. Maybe I should just wait for an MDS-JB930 to show up on ebay since later ES decks are crazy expensive.

[sfbp]

I can't seem to find any information about what DAC is used in the E10/12 professional decks. Does anyone know what type of DAC is used in these professional type decks? Is it current pulse, Hybrid pulse or other?

The mds-e10 at least (the 11 and 12 are probably similar) seems also to have abandoned the arrangement with separate D->A in favour of the 4524 hooked directly to the CXD2662.

Is this coincidence? Or is it possible Sony simply abandoned that design after realising that the combination of the 2662 and 4524 were simply *good enough*??? The 2662 is what's in the MDS-JB940, the MDS-E1x, CMT-PX3, MDS-PC3 and (I think!) all decks before the 2664 (Type-S) but which included MDLP. Speaking as a layman in these matters, it occurs to me to wonder if the extra chip actually was a negative in terms of sound quality. As a user of optical output, I've already stated that I don't care much about the analogue side of these decks.

The design is the same in every case, a couple of Op amps between the output of the 4524 and the actual analogue (RCA) connector.

The major thing that the E1x had (over the others) is lack of SCMS protection. SIRCS (M-Crew type stuff over PS/2 connector) was another plus. Apart from these two features, there is probably nothing functionally added (or quality-wise) in the Pro units. Maybe this tells you something about Sony's thinking on the current pulse issue.

I know that current pulse is supposed to be better, but maybe they figured out that the other benefits outweighed doing it the old way. The biggest one known to me is that you get MDLP with the 2662 and up. I couldn't live without LP2.

Stephen

[bluecrab]

I can't say anything about the either the E10 or E12, but I had always thought the 940 had a current pulse DAC. Sony itself has conflicting information about this. See, as an example,

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpdf.textfiles.com%2Fmanuals%2FSTARINMANUALS%2FSony%2520Consumer%2FMDS-JB940.pdf&ei=O43xUp68GuLjsATCnYDABw&usg=AFQjCNHWk9XtJPh4FiDav40iKlN7IfrB6w&bvm=bv.60444564,d.cWc

where first, Sony says it's a current pulse and then says it's a hybrid. At this point, I'm inclined to think it is in fact hybrid. I recently acquired a JB930, which is believed to have a current pulse DAC. In any case, IMO the 930 sounds better than the 940. I think your idea of waiting for one to show up is good. I got lucky this time and found my 930 on craigslist for low $$.

Good luck!

[PhilippeC]

bluecrab has joined the "Vote for 930" club created by punkrockaddict

[punkrockaddict]

I found this -> http://www.soundprofessionals.com/pdf_files/MDS-E10.pdf

and this -> http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/STARINMANUALS/Sony%20Audio/Archive/MDS-E10,%20MDS-E12%20-%20Comparison%20Chart.PDF

Maybe the SM has more decent content but i didn´t have a look.

Those were nice Decks and i would like to know what they are worth? Anybody knows?

greetings to all

[sfbp]

The major thing that the E1x had (over the others) is lack of SCMS protection.

Whoops, that's wrong.... according to the manual (unless someone slavishly copied it - and a real owner can tell us this is false) even that's not so. So apart from the XLR balanced analog jacks in E12 (E11 doesn't have MDLP, being from earlier i.e. just before MDLP was implemented for the first time) the only remaining benefits (vs. "regular" decks) are SIRCS and some other control features.

I note from the hookup diagrams for E12 that these decks were intended to be hooked up to "mixer" (ie amplifier) via the analogue connectors, at least in the mind of Sony. This seems to show their thinking at the time, since the AV receivers and amps with digital INPUT (from the MD, that is) were not commonly available when these decks came out. This seems to me further to indicate Sony dropped the fancy current pulse arrangement (of the 930 and earlier units) as soon as it became possible (and normal) to have playback amplifiers with nice DACs, which accepted optical input.

Sorry for the misinformation.

[Sargaso]

Thanks for all the info, guess I'll keep an eye out for a 930 but may get an E12 (type-R) anyway. I'm curious about how good the professional decks sound. Right now I have a MXD-D40 (hybrid pulse dac) which I use to make SP recordings from CD and an MDS-JE480 modified with an optical output which I've connected to a Benchmark DAC1 HDR (for a test) and it sounds great from the headphone output. The D40 is good for recording from CD but only sounds ok from analog out to amp and speakers and the analog out of the JE480 is about the same to my ears. So I'll probably try an E12 and 930 too if one comes up on ebay for the right price. There seem to be a lot of 920/940's but few 930/980's.

[sfbp]

It's pretty easy to modify the D40 to do optical out. I've done it. But your modified 480 should be good since it has the improved Type-S chip in it. Supposedly the improvements only relate to MDLP playback, but it seems likely (to me) that the improved sound from Type-S DSP is probably worth having no matter what.

FWIW since the Type-S vs Type-R is only alleged to affect PLAYBACK, you may already be doing as well as is possible by recording in Type-R (the D40), even for MDLP. Certainly I have made lots of good recordings using the various machines that have that same chipset (CXD2662 and AK4524).

[punkrockaddict]

:D Sargaso is going to join my Club as well.

Funny.. isn´t it PhillipeC ?

Sargaso are you planning to connect the "new" Deck you are going to buy to an analog amp? I´d be interested in how the E12 differs from the "other" one .. if there is a difference at all.We´ll probably get to now asap, right ?

[Sargaso]

Yes, I would connect it to an analog amp for a try, as well as comparing headphone out. Not sure what you mean punkrockaddict by "other" one? If I got an E12 or 930, I could only compare it to either the D40 or JE480, or are you referring to a situation were I obtained both an E12 and a 930 and comparing those two decks?

Why does Sony have so contradictory information on some of their products? I notice that one place says that the E10 and E12 both have type-R DSP but then other information says the E10 only has ATRAC 4.5, not type-R. The only thing consistent is that the E12 has type-R.

http://oyvind.servehttp.com/minidisc.htm

[sfbp]

Promotional literature is often at variance with the finished product (as evidenced by service manuals). In this case, the E10 is definitely Type-R. Unless the E12 is Type-S, I think it must be Type-R too. However no (service) manual for it seems to be anywhere I can look.

Just to clarify, it seems the E11 was made first, followed by the E12 and then the E10.

One more thing: I noticed that the designs NOT using the AK4524 as D->A but only A->D were using some quite high voltages (7.1?) on some of the critical chips. I recall the whole thing with 3.3V Diodes vs 5.0V diodes (the latter are quite standard now, but were not back when Sony designed a lot of these circuits). Could it be something like there were some new FET's they used for the OpAmps which did not require such a high power supply rail, and so worked perfectly with the AK part? Sometimes improvements come, not because some company is being cheap but because less simply is more.

Over to Azureal for comment.....

[Sargaso]

I just checked E10/E12's on ebay and the tag on the backs of some of the units show the manufacturing date. All the E12's were in 2002 and the E10 was in 2000. Shouldn't it be the E11 was made first followed by the E10 then the E12?

I've not seen anything that connected the E12 with type-s DSP.

[sfbp]

You may well be correct. But remember, manufacturing date is exactly that....... The manual for E12 (here) clearly says 2000. If it really were 2002, then I *would* expect them to have updated to use CXD2664 (Type-S). But I think they didn't.

Sounds like the E12 and E10 were both from 2000. The numbering is odd, given that the E11 preceded them both (by a couple of years).

[Sargaso]

Well, I got ahold of an E10 service manual and it shows it uses a CXD2662R DSP chip, so its Type-R after all.

[sfbp]

Exactly

[PhilippeC]

This seems to me further to indicate Sony dropped the fancy current pulse arrangement (of the 930 and earlier units) as soon as it became possible (and normal) to have playback amplifiers with nice DACs, which accepted optical input.

Even analog or ampliifiers with bad DACs, as you can buy cheap-but-good or high-end external DACs. But I don't have a real experience about that as I don't have the need of an USB + optical external DAC. When somebody - maybe MDietrich with his Creative USB HD DAC - will write a topic about the use of a DAC (MD optical to DAC optical) between the MD deck and the analog amplifier, I will be happy.

And more, about the discussion between current or hybrid pulse DAC inside our MD decks. I am convinced that the most important thing is to get a recording in the highest audiophile sound quality possible. If you change your standard PC soundcard for a high (even high-end) one and afterwards connected optical out to your MD deck (use as a DAC) then an analog amplifier, the sound will be clearly much better - I think - than a simple replacement between a hybrid pulse deck to a current pulse deck (using the first PC soundcard).

[bluecrab]

Here's what I've found. Keep in mind that for at-home use, I listen to MD almost exclusively through an MD deck attached to an amplifier via the deck's analog outputs. Everyone means well, I know, as far as how to get the best sound out of MD, but the configuration I just described is what I have and will stay as it is for the foreseeable future.

One of my two main listening systems has, for an amp, the Cambridge Audio Azur 540R V3. This is a "modern" amp (that is, it has an optical in), although a few years old. At the moment, I'm using my JB930 as MD input to the amp, via analog, but for a couple of years prior, my JB940 was the MD source. The JB940 sounded pretty much the same no matter if connected to the amp via its analog out or via its digital out. I don't know what kind of DAC the 540R amp uses, but given the general high quality of Cambridge Audio gear, I would suspect it's pretty good.

Perhaps if I tried using my MXD-D400 as input to the amp, I'd notice more of a difference in sound via the D400's optical out as compared to its analog out. (The D400, like its predecessor MXD-D40, is really rather woefully deficient as a playback unit via analog out.)

Should my NAD C372 amp (the amp for my other - and primary - main system) ever fail, or should I ever find myself with a surplus of funds, then I'd consider replacing it with a similar unit that does have optical in. That could give me more options for MD sourcing.

Anyway, I just wanted to note that people on this board use MD in different ways and that there's no one-size-fits-all solution for improvement of MD sound. The important thing is that we all do use MD, in whatever way is available or best for each of us. BTW, shortly after my acquisition of the JB930, I also got a non-Sony deck - a Kenwood MD-2070. I found this on eBay as a never-used item. It certainly looks that way. First audio impression was that it's not up to the JB930's lofty standards, but still pretty good, especially considering that it is ATRAC 4.5. Not sure just yet how I am going to use it.

Have a good day, all, and keep enjoying MD.

Bruce (or Bluecrab, take your pick)

[Sargaso]

Well, I won my bid on a MDS-E10 yesterday, so it will be nice to see how it stacks up against my other 2 decks. I decided to go for the E10 instead of the E12 because the E10 has type-R DSP also has optical I/O which is better for me than any of the I/O on the E12.

Since the E10 uses the CXD2662R DSP chip and the AK4524 codec chip it certainly has the capability to be a good sounding device, depending on the implementation of course, but I'll assume that Sony did a good job laying out there PCB board, etc, to produce a good design. This is probably the best I could do with SP (I don't use LP2 for anything so I don't really need Type-S) and I can only use ATRAC3plus on my portable MD's. I don't think there are any HiMD decks.

First I think I'll hook the E10's analog outputs to my NAD 7250PE receiver, driving some KEF C95 speakers and play some MD's I recorded in real time on the D40. I know this is older hardware but it still sounds good to me. I wonder if I'll really hear a marked difference between the E10 and the other two decks; I guess I should. One of the big problems with comparisons is not being able to switch back and forth between two hardware configurations in a short time. But I'll do the best I can.

[Sargaso]

Oops! Spoke to soon, I forgot Onyko makes a couple of HiMD decks but also crazy expensive.

[bluecrab]

Congrats on getting the E10.

I see that the NAD 7250PE, like my NAD C372, does not have its own DAC. So you will get a pretty good idea of how the E10's DSP/DAC chips sound. I get it about not being able to switch between two configs quickly, although where I have one or more unused inputs on both amps, it's not an issue for me. You could always get an inexpensive A/B switch for comparison purposes. They're a handy thing to have around, anyway.

[Sargaso]

I didn't initially think it all the way through, I can use the tape inputs for one deck and the aux inputs for the other deck and switch from the front panel. Guess I'll have to make two MD's with the same tracks and play them simultaneously while switching between the two decks. That should do it.

[Sargaso]

Well the E10 (CXD2662R/AK4524) has arrived and I've done some comparing against the D40 (CXD2662R/UDA1350AH) and JE480 (CXD2664R/AK4552VT). To my ears there isn't a night and day difference between any of these decks.

However,I can with my old ears distinguish a difference in soundstage and muddiness in the mid and low frequencies between the decks. The D40 sound was a bit muddy but the JE480 and E10 had good clarity of sound. The E10 had wider soundstage than the D40 but only slightly better than the JE480. In fact the E10 and JE480 sound very similiar and I guess I would expect as much since their DAC's are both from the AK45XX family, baring any design goofs in PCB board layout, etc. So I would rank them at least according to sound quality (and my hearing) this way: best is E10 followed by JE480 and last is the D40. All in all I'm glad I have all three decks as they each have there own good features, for instance the D40 is best for copying CD's. Anyway, I wish I had gotten an E10 sooner.

[bluecrab]

Thanks for posting the results. I have a couple of D40s and agree with all you say about it. I have had the JE480 as well - agree that it sounds better than the D40, but perhaps a less rugged deck. I am fairly certain I'll never have an E10, but should you ever acquire a JB930, it would be interesting to get a 930/E10 comparison (the 930 is to my also old ears an amazing-sounding unit).

[Sargaso]

If I ever get one I'll do the comparison.

[punkrockaddict]

Sometimes comparing is hard.Iam havin a hard time to compare anything to my new JA333ES

For some Reasons i can´t her a difference comparing it with the 930.

[bluecrab]

Funny you should mention it. I did have a JA333ES, but it died. I replaced it with a JA20ES, which seems to sound about as good as the 333ES. When I got the JB930ES, I compared it to the JA20ES. Very hard to tell the difference...maybe the 20ES sounded a little more detailed.

Judging by what I've read here, one of the biggest differences in how an MD deck sounds is whether it has a hybrid or current pulse DAC. This seems to match my actual listening experiences. Perhaps the fact that the JB930/JA333ES/JA20ES all have current pulse DACs (the 20ES and the 930 look like they have the same DAC), is a factor in their sounding similar.

The 333ES does have the advantage of MDLP, which can come in handy at times.Good luck with the new 333ES...just finding one takes luck to begin with, and finding a reasonably priced one...I think that's pretty much history.

[bluecrab]

On 2/4/2014 at 4:35 PM, sfbp said:

The mds-e10 at least (the 11 and 12 are probably similar) seems also to have abandoned the arrangement with separate D->A in favour of the 4524 hooked directly to the CXD2662.

 

Is this coincidence? Or is it possible Sony simply abandoned that design after realising that the combination of the 2662 and 4524 were simply *good enough*??? The 2662 is what's in the MDS-JB940, the MDS-E1x, CMT-PX3, MDS-PC3 and (I think!) all decks before the 2664 (Type-S) but which included MDLP. Speaking as a layman in these matters, it occurs to me to wonder if the extra chip actually was a negative in terms of sound quality. As a user of optical output, I've already stated that I don't care much about the analogue side of these decks.

 

The design is the same in every case, a couple of Op amps between the output of the 4524 and the actual analogue (RCA) connector.

 

The major thing that the E1x had (over the others) is lack of SCMS protection. SIRCS (M-Crew type stuff over PS/2 connector) was another plus. Apart from these two features, there is probably nothing functionally added (or quality-wise) in the Pro units. Maybe this tells you something about Sony's thinking on the current pulse issue.

 

I know that current pulse is supposed to be better, but maybe they figured out that the other benefits outweighed doing it the old way. The biggest one known to me is that you get MDLP with the 2662 and up. I couldn't live without LP2.

 

Stephen

EIGHT+ years later  and I find in this thread (courtesy of SFBP) confirmation of what I want to know: the DAC in the E10 is the AK4524 (also in the SM). Today I began using the E10 as both a player and a DAC. Its RCAs are going into a pair of Kanto TUK powered speakers. I have tried optical and USB (from Macbook Pro) direct to the TUKs, but I think the E10's DAC to its RCAs is the best-sounding of the three connections. I was listening to an MD played this way and was absolutely, positively floored to find that the source disc was LP2! I hadn't thought to even consider that until I saw the label on the disc. Playing from iTunes also sounds great through the E10.

[kgallen]

A while back I did a trawl of the Service Manuals for this sort of data.

 

Uploaded here: https://www.minidisc.wiki/_media/resources/sony_md_part_data.pdf

[bluecrab]

17 hours ago, kgallen said:

A while back I did a trawl of the Service Manuals for this sort of data.

 

Uploaded here: https://www.minidisc.wiki/_media/resources/sony_md_part_data.pdf

Nice, thanks. (Saved.) I am more than a little surprised to see so many units share the AK4524. And I was thus inspired to check what DAC my MXD-D400 has—seems to be AK4584VQ.

[bluecrab]

It's a couple of months later (and more) since I ran the the E10 direct to my my Kanto TUK powereds. Since then, I have added a Cambridge Audio DACMagic 100 to the mix. It has a Wolfson WM8742 chip for its DAC, and I have the E10 connected to it via coax. For me, at least, the DM100 exceeds both the E10's AK4524 and the TUK's own DSP in how it sounds. Yes, MD decks have long been renowned for their DACs, but this is a new level of detail I'm hearing. (I'm allowing for the TUK's AMT tweeters.)