External DACs - opinions?

[damnspynovels]

File under 'try it and see' of course...

 

For those who've been following my threads over the past few days, you'll know I have a 940 deck, and a 707 portable. The deck has been gathering dust since I moved house in the spring, and I'm ready to set everything up.

 

Since moving, i've bought an arcam DAC for my cd player. 

 

Just curious, but does anyone play their MD"s through an external DAC, or do you leave it to the deck to do the converting? I love the sound of my DAC, and I auditioned a number of units before deciding on the Arcam. Part of me thinks though that it's going against the principle to attach an MD to a DAC for playback. 

 

Opinions? 

[freddyjollo]

why not? If I could afford an Audiolab DAC-Preamp I would also do that. In your case  you will get a consistancy of sound comparable to  your cd player as  you not only using the DAC but also the audio circuitry of it, which may be better than the MD's?  Would then be interresting to run am A_B test switching between the 2 usin a common recording? Another  thing  you can eliminate thereby is a pair of  analogue cables ( from the MD ) . That cant be a bad thing?  I would like to make all my inputs to my preamp digital and then just one  analogue cable to the power amp from the preamp and one from the dac to the  (pre ) amp? That will give as good as it can be?

[damnspynovels]

why not? If I could afford an Audiolab DAC-Preamp I would also do that. In your case  you will get a consistancy of sound comparable to  your cd player as  you not only using the DAC but also the audio circuitry of it? Would then be interresting to run am A_B test switching between the 2 usin a common recording? Another  thing  you can eliminate thereby is a pair of  analogue cables ( from the MD ) . That cant be a bad thing?  I would like to make all my inputs to my preamp digital and then just one  analogue cable to the power amp from the preamp and one from the dac to the  (pre ) amp? That will give as good as it can be?

 

that's the idea I suppose. i have the 940 too which I think sends actual 24bit digital to a DAC? I might as well. And as you say, the Arcam has a signature sound that I like, so it makes sense that I'd appreciate MDs conforming to that too. 

[freddyjollo]

that's the idea I suppose. i have the 940 too which I think sends actual 24bit digital to a DAC? I might as well. And as you say, the Arcam has a signature sound that I like, so it makes sense that I'd appreciate MDs conforming to that too. 

Not just a matter of preference but also  superior?  the JB90 sold for about £250 in the UK 10 years ago or so? How much of that money went on the audio circuits - not too much I bet, with cheap components. I always thought the sound  was a bit heavy & sluggish. You dont say which Arcam dac  you have but they have made some really good dacs,  the latest one is supposed to be a cracker & a benchmark soundwise.

[sfbp]

Just curious, but does anyone play their MD"s through an external DAC, or do you leave it to the deck to do the converting? I love the sound of my DAC, and I auditioned a number of units before deciding on the Arcam. Part of me thinks though that it's going against the principle to attach an MD to a DAC for playback.

Opinions?

I've been very happy with several different AV receivers where the input is optical or coax s/pdif and sample rate up to 192kHz up to 24-bits.

I would imagine this eliminates all sorts of problems with component mismatch. Also the receivers pretty much ignore SCMS.

In my case, therefore, I don't care about the DAC in the MD thanks to optical output and the sole criterion for (playback) deck choice is "how well can I reconstruct the compressed signal from the MD". In this case the Type-S DSP chips are better than Type-R for MDLP. It does make a difference as I verified a couple of days back.

I know that the current pulse DACs in the 920 and 930 and some other high end models are used purely as DACs by some audiophiles. But that presupposes a need for a separate DAC.

[freddyjollo]

I know that the current pulse DACs in the 920 and 930 and some other high end models are used purely as DACs by some audiophiles.

I think those people are misguided - re the 920 & 930 - the DAC maybe the best in the world , the audio circuitry in those md they then go thru are not?

[sfbp]

Don't understand - why is it misguided to use the best DAC in the world?

[damnspynovels]

Not just a matter of preference but also  superior?  the JB90 sold for about £250 in the UK 10 years ago or so? How much of that money went on the audio circuits - not too much I bet, with cheap components. I always thought the sound  was a bit heavy & sluggish. You dont say which Arcam dac  you have but they have made some really good dacs,  the latest one is supposed to be a cracker & a benchmark soundwise.

 

That's a fair point. If the 940 that i had sold for about £400 new (I think it did?), the DAC I have is the Arcam irDAC, which is currently £400, and obviously all that tech is to do one job - so it stands to reason this is the way to go. I imagine this is the one you're referring to when you say it's a cracker - as the only other hifi one (as opposed to the ones made for bluetooth etc) is the D33 and that runs into the thousands...

I don't know if I'll run into any SCMS issues but I'll give it a try.  

[freddyjollo]

Don't understand - why is it misguided to use the best DAC in the world?

The point I was trying to make  was that  if u use it to convert from digital  to analogue then  it goes  thru the analogue audio  circuitry also - which  is just ok no more  than that? the  limiting factor is the analogue audio circuitry out side the dac chip? - unless the chip is more or less connected to the sockets direct?

That's a fair point. If the 940 that i had sold for about £400 new (I think it did?), the DAC I have is the Arcam irDAC, which is currently £400, and obviously all that tech is to do one job - so it stands to reason this is the way to go. I imagine this is the one you're referring to when you say it's a cracker - as the only other hifi one (as opposed to the ones made for bluetooth etc) is the D33 and that runs into the thousands...

I don't know if I'll run into any SCMS issues but I'll give it a try.  

well that may have been the list price( I think it was though more like £300) for the 940 but I got mine new for I think £230 and also the later 980 at a similar price. re the arcam, well it seems u have the best at the price that blows away any oppostion eg the older Musical Fidelity M1 &  only the Audiolab M1 at £600 is better. I cant see how  the JB940 dac gets a lookin in that company..lucky u.

[sfbp]

I cant see how  the JB940 dac gets a lookin in that company..

The JB940 DAC is not in the same league as the 920/930. Current pulse in the two older models, hybrid in the 940.

As someone who's never used a standalone DAC (I have an Onkyo, a Sony and an Integra all of which seem to do really decent jobs at optical->speakers), I'm a bit sceptical about all this componentisation (?) on the grounds that anything one gains by having superior performance one loses again by bringing the signal out to analogue interconnects, with all the known problems of varying resistance etc. About the only problem with the all-in-one digital receivers I am familiar with is this business of overheating since they do not have (for reasons of audio purity) any fans. The temperature on my TX-SR605 has been known to reach 50 degrees C (there's a magic menu where you can get it to show you that)!!

I'm not sure what it would prove, but I'm willing to try out a 930's output into the analogue side of the SR605. I even have a pre-digital Kenwood sitting in a box somewhere, but somehow I would expect 930+Kenwood to be equivalent to 940+Sony (or Onkyo). How would you design an experiment to compare the two approaches? What differences might you expect to hear?

[freddyjollo]

The JB940 DAC is not in the same league as the 920/930. Current pulse in the two older models, hybrid in the 940.

As someone who's never used a standalone DAC (I have an Onkyo, a Sony and an Integra all of which seem to do really decent jobs at optical->speakers), I'm a bit sceptical about all this componentisation (?) on the grounds that anything one gains by having superior performance one loses again by bringing the signal out to analogue interconnects, with all the known problems of varying resistance etc.

The point I was trying to make re the Sony md decks of the QS  level - I assume there is analogue amplifer  circuitry  between the DAC  circuit and the plugs that take the signal to the amplifier proper? It is this internal amplifier stage not the DAC  its self that is not likley to be  top rate? If I am wrong in this assumption of internal analogue amplifier circuitry  not in the dac then ok point taken.

 

re componentisation - in this case  you arent adding another analogue cable - the connection between  md and the external dac will be  digital so wont suffer the issues u mention ( though it may suffer others - timeing and jitter  what ever that it lol)?

[sfbp]

re componentisation - in this case  you arent adding another analogue cable - the connection between  md and the external dac will be  digital so wont suffer the issues u mention

I'm referring to the fact that now you have a standalone DAC with cables to the power amp. Then finally cables to the speakers, right? With an AV receiver you have one cable from MD to unit, and speakers right off the back with speaker wire. So, at the price of having to find space for a big heavy unit (for all the interconnect stuff allowing multiple types of I/O) you get everything nicely shielded, a single massive power supply for everything thereby avoiding hum loops and glitches.

In other words, its usefulness is limited by whatever (RCA output, I looked at the back of the ARCAM to be sure) cables you have from the DAC to the power amp, and wherever the weakest link is, there come the possible problems.

I once upon a time (when I got the Onkyo) tried out a phono pre-amp for my turntable/cartridge. Admittedly nothing fancy but I tried 2 or 3 before giving up completely and going back to the all-in-one Kenwood which had a PPA. They all had ridiculous problems with signal levels, noise, and on and on, even with fancy cabling which I bought at great cost. Not until I finally got the massive Sony STR-DG1000 was I able to move to a (mostly-)digital amp when using LPs.

[freddyjollo]

I'm referring to the fact that now you have a standalone DAC with cables to the power amp. Then finally cables to the speakers, right? With an AV receiver you have one cable from MD to unit, and speakers right off the back with speaker wire. So, at the price of having to find space for a big heavy unit (for all the interconnect stuff allowing multiple types of I/O) you get everything nicely shielded, a single massive power supply for everything thereby avoiding hum loops and glitches.

In other words, its usefulness is limited by whatever (RCA output, I looked at the back of the ARCAM to be sure) cables you have from the DAC to the power amp, and wherever the weakest link is, there come the possible problems.

I once upon a time (when I got the Onkyo) tried out a phono pre-amp for my turntable/cartridge. Admittedly nothing fancy but I tried 2 or 3 before giving up completely and going back to the all-in-one Kenwood which had a PPA. They all had ridiculous problems with signal levels, noise, and on and on, even with fancy cabling which I bought at great cost. Not until I finally got the massive Sony DGR-1000 was I able to move to a (mostly-)digital amp when using LPs.

ok if u have an all in one box then yes in principle u  are cutting back on cables. I would like to get the Audiolab digital preamp  that  follow this thinking. But alas  cost too much  for me. But still useing the external dac a good solution if  you dont?  if you just have a normal  amplifier. In damns case he already has the  very well regarded external dac so feeding it the digtal output from his md deck should be a vast improvement without any extra cabling? the analogue cable to amp from the dac rather than the md deck

[sfbp]

if you just have a normal  amplifier.

Two words in that short quote I take issue with:

"just" - in my opinion there is never any "just" in technology. Amps have had digital input for 7-8 years and are now easily available on ebay for way less than the cost of the fancy DAC OP refers to.

"normal" - receivers mostly have digital IN these days. Ten years ago, I agree it was not "normal". If you don't believe me I'd be happy to take a scan through ebay.co.uk and point out a couple.

Here, for example:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sony-STR-DA1200ES-7-1-Channel-100-Watt-Receiver-/161438029899?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Home_Cinema_Receivers&hash=item259674d84b

You may find that this is actually the same model as the STR-DG1000 I refer to (and own).

Update: the model I linked to is not available where I live, and when I checked, the closest model to the DG1000 is in fact the STR-DA3200ES. Nevertheless the digital input feature is present in the DA1200ES, priced (for the record) on eBay at a rather reasonable 95 pounds. That's only about 4 pounds per pound, quite the bargain in HiFi, IMHO.

Edited October 8, 2014 by sfbp
Correction re: model numbers

[damnspynovels]

Well, all my gear is quite old other than the DAC - which is brand new. It's all Arcam Alpha stuff from the mid to late 90s, and the reason I bought the DAC was because whilst I love the Alpha range, both in sound and looks, I recognise the CD player I have is very old and could quite easily be improved on. I discussed it with Arcam themselves, as to whether the entry level CD player they offered at the time (since discontinued) - which itself was about £600-700 - would outperform my Alpha CD player with their new irDAC. They said it wouldn't, so I bought the DAC. It made a vast improvement to my CD player without losing the Arcam 'sound'. 

 

But obviously my integrated / power amp combo is old too - way too old to have digital inputs - but i don't want to replace it. So I'm using the irDAC with its many inputs for my digital needs. 

[freddyjollo]

Well, all my gear is quite old other than the DAC - which is brand new. It's all Arcam Alpha stuff from the mid to late 90s, and the reason I bought the DAC was because whilst I love the Alpha range, both in sound and looks, I recognise the CD player I have is very old and could quite easily be improved on. I discussed it with Arcam themselves, as to whether the entry level CD player they offered at the time (since discontinued) - which itself was about £600-700 - would outperform my Alpha CD player with their new irDAC. They said it wouldn't, so I bought the DAC. It made a vast improvement to my CD player without losing the Arcam 'sound'. 

 

But obviously my integrated / power amp combo is old too - way too old to have digital inputs - but i don't want to replace it. So I'm using the irDAC with its many inputs for my digital needs. 

I think  you have gone down the right path in keeping  a sound you like. It can take quite a time to get things he way you want them.I bought and still have but will probably soon sell a Tag Mclaren pre/power separates amps that was their version of the Audiolab amps I now have. Cant say I like the Tag sound. Audiolab have  both traditional amps like I have  and the  newer digital  input version in their line up, one even with a cd player thrown in. I think the digital  version is aimed more at home cinema like  the one sfpb has. I bet it must weight a ton sfpb?

 

You must have tried  pumping the md thru the dac by now, let us know  what you think in comparison to using the md  inbuilt dac

[damnspynovels]

You must have tried  pumping the md thru the dac by now, let us know  what you think in comparison to using the md  inbuilt dac

 

Not yet - my home deck has been in storage for the past year, and I'm just getting around to buying all new cables for it. 

[freddyjollo]

Not yet - my home deck has been in storage for the past year, and I'm just getting around to buying all new cables for it. 

ah the cables  -  buying them and  getting ones  you like can be a real irritation, can drive you mad & make your pocket light

[damnspynovels]

ah the cables  -  buying them and  getting ones  you like can be a real irritation, can drive you mad & make your pocket light

 

it's not so much that - more that I've gotten more equipment than I had before. So i'm waiting on a 3 to 1 toslink switch and extra toslink cables etc.