Problems when editing on a MDS JE-330

[chrisgalbraith]

Hi, everyone! Newbie on the forum reporting from Brazil!

My name is Chris, and I own a Sony Minidisc JE-330 bought brand new, in Y2K.

To my great luck I came across this great community today, upon searching for a solution to my problem.

First, just a brief explanation of what I do and why I still find my beloved MD super useful.

I'm a (home) DJ, and my hobby is to record mixing sets to gift friends and family.

I'm familiar with recording softwares such as Audacity, so much so that I also use it, but I still find very practical to record my live sessions on MD as a pre-mastering stage, prior to a final version of the recording material, where I'll remove all the clicks and pops from my vinyls (yes, I use good old vinyls and a pair of Technics SL-1200 MK2), apply noise reduction and equalization, before saving the final material in WAV and MP3 formats.

So the problem that brought me to this place is one that I have been facing since the very first recording session with my Sony MD deck, way back in 2000.

It is related with the Edit function, mainly the A-B ERASE and COMBINE options.

When I'm mixing the tracks, sometimes errors occur and I F-up some transitions. So I re-record the very same transition from one track to another until I get it right, and then I edit and splice together the 2 pieces to make it whole, after combining the 2 separate portions on the recorded MD.

So let's say I'm in a very bad mixing day and I reach the full MD recording space capacity with 24 separate pieces that I need to combine all in one and then A-B ERASE the in-between wrong mixing parts. Basically I need to remove all the wrong transitions and paste the end to the beginning of each mixing transition.

 

So my blueprint to do this is as follows: 1) combine 1 + 2 =1 successivelly and do each A-B erase editing at each combination stage (instead and combine everything altogether in a single track to start A-B erasing afterwards, otherwise it would be a nightmare to find out the locations of each wrong parts to be edited), until the very final A-B ERASE edit and some recording space is saved. Then I proceed to record a last bit of space until filling out 100% of recording space, only to be A-B ERASEd again in order to splice it to the previous single edited full track, so that I have 72 to 73 minutes of mixing set.

 

That's when my problems begin....

 

Through my observations, depending on the amount of separate pieces (let's say 24 split tracks)  when I try to combine to afterwards A-B ERASE the remainder of this last bit recorded, I almost ALWAYS  receive an error message of "IMPOSSIBLE" to both combine the 2 tracks to further splice them together through A-B ERASE. If I manage to divide the previous edited 1 track into 2 separate ones, delete the second track to combine 1+3=1 sometimes it gets completed. But if I try to A-B ERASE the newly bonded 1 and 3, I get the "IMPOSSIBLE" message after selecting point A and B.

 

I've read on the instructions manual that such problem is related to a limitation of the system, and it is linked to how heavily edited the single track (result of all the combinations and A-B ERASE procedures) is, to the point that it won't allow further combining and A-B Erasing anymore.

 

So after this long winded explanation (!) - sorry, guys! - I wonder if anyone of you MD fans have come across this problem, and how did you overcome such thing, if there's anything possible to be done as a solution to this annoying situation.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and long live to the MiniDiscs!

Kind regards,

CHRIS

Edited October 19, 2015 by chrisgalbraith

[sfbp]

1. You could upload using MZ-RH1 and edit the WAV files there

2. You could try editing with M-Crew (probably works, is my guess)

3. You could buy an MDS-W1 which will copy the tracks to a new disk leaving behind the "bits". Now the bits can be combined by simply erasing the disk.

All of these solutions cost money. By pushing the format to its absolute limit you have run into a problem Sony was completely unable to get around. I recall something like this in the early days of CP/M and DOS (heard of either of those?!) when the disk got full. I trashed countless floppy disks in similar manoevres. The problem (in that case) has to do with how the OS allocates new space. It's amazing that Sony does detect this condition and doesn't completely trash the disk as Digital Research and Microsoft both used to.

[PhilippeC]

Some basic tricks can help you :

- after deleting a track or combine two of them, it is important to let the deck writing again the TOC. That could avoid errors doing the next process. 

- using a Net-MD unit (portable will cost you less money than a new deck) and Sonic Stage will help you a LOT during the deleting tracks process. Combining tracks with Sonic Stage : more help here http://forums.sonyinsider.com/topic/19346-question-about-combining-tracks-in-sonicstage/  . A-B ERASE is not a Sonic Stage process.

Edited October 20, 2015 by PhilippeC

[sfbp]

Just one point about the post above "Sonic Stage will help you a LOT during the deleting tracks process". NEVER delete a track which is not-named when you are using Sonic Stage to do the deleting. It's a relatively well-known bug in SS. You must name every track, even if they are all labelled "X" it doesn't matter.

[PhilippeC]

Let me explain how I proceed after a real time recording done from my PC using foobar2000 as a player and my JB980 as my recorder.

I can be forced to use the Post-track Silence plugin the separate correctly the tracks (sometime it work perfectly).

Album : Verve Jazz Club / Mods / Various Artists - Jazz For Lovers

I can get this after the recording after connecting the deck to the PC with Net-MD and Sonic Stage :

01. [                    ] 2:43
02. [                    ] 0:02
03. [                    ] 3:12
04. [                    ] 0:02
05. [                    ] 3:01
06. [                    ] 0:02
07. [                    ] 3:37
08. [                    ] 0:02
09. [                    ] 2:24
10. [                    ] 0:02

.../...
36. [                    ] 

Many additional silence tracks as being added. Number of tracks could be double.

Sometimes you can get this :

01. [                    ] 2:43
02. [                    ] 0:02
03. [                    ] 3:00
04. [                    ] 0:12
05. [                    ] 0:02
06. [                    ] 3:01

The second track has been divided by two tracks. That could happen for several tracks, creating a big mess. How to correct that ? By getting good tags to the good tracks first. I create a list of tracks (foobar2000 : album selection, right click, utilities, text tools, advanced...) : for example with the track pattern [%tracknumber%. ]%artist% - %title% %length%, I get this :

01. Dinah Washington - Unforgettable 2:43
02. John Coltrane - Nancy (With The Laughing Face) 3:12
03. George Shearing - The Nearness Of You 3:01
04. Laura Fygi - Dream A Little Dream Of Me 3:37
05. Stan Getz - Moonlight In Vermont 2:24
06. Sarah Vaughan - That's All 3:29
07. Shirley Horn - Do It Again 2:57
08. Ella Fitzgerald - My Melancholy Baby 2:57
09. Erroll Garner - Misty 2:46
10. Louis Armstrong - We'll Be Together Again 4:04
11. Clifford Brown - Smoke Gets In Your Eyes 3:13
12. Monty Alexander - For Sentimental Reasons 4:01
13. Nina Simone - What More Can I Say 2:49
14. Chet Baker - The Touch Of Your Lips 2:40
15. Ben Webster - My Funny Valentine 3:23
16. Blossom Dearie - Lover Man 2:45
17. Billie Holliday - April In Paris 3:03
18. Oscar Peterson - Dreamsville 2:58

I just copy + past at least 18 times the "artist - tiltle" part of it. I MUST COMPARE VERY CAREFULLY THE LENGTH OF TRACKS. So I get this :

01. [Dinah Washington - Unforgettable] 2:43
02. [                    ] 0:02
03. [ John Coltrane - Nancy (With The Laughing Face)] 3:00
04. [                    ] 0:12
05. [                    ] 0:02
06. [George Shearing - The Nearness Of You] 3:01

Stephen (sfbp) will add X in silence tracks and for example C (for combine) :

01. [Dinah Washington - Unforgettable] 2:43
02. [X ] 0:02
03. [ John Coltrane - Nancy (With The Laughing Face)] 3:00
04. [C] 0:12
05. [X] 0:02
06. [George Shearing - The Nearness Of You] 3:01

 

This is a rather long job if your track list is a long one. After this first tagging, I can delete X files (funny Stephen) in Sonic Stage. I get this :

01. [Dinah Washington - Unforgettable] 2:43
02. [ John Coltrane - Nancy (With The Laughing Face)] 3:00
03. [C] 0:12
05. [George Shearing - The Nearness Of You] 3:01

I prefer then to come back to my JB980 and combine the tracks 02 + 03. I get this after TOC writing :

01. [Dinah Washington - Unforgettable] 2:43
02. [John Coltrane - Nancy (With The Laughing Face)] 3:00
03. [George Shearing - The Nearness Of You] 3:01

 

 

[philippeb]

I get the "IMPOSSIBLE" message after selecting point A and B.

This is a terrible limitation indeed. I have opted for sfbp's option 3, and yes, the Sony MDS-W1 fixes the problem. As does the Denon DN-045R.

[PhilippeC]

Why not just simply forcing the TOC writing  (eject) after each process or more often ?

[chrisgalbraith]

First of all, thank you so much for all the replies and the help offered, guys! I really didn't imagine I'd get this many replies offering tips so fast, so thank you very much, indeed! 

The TOC writting tip is one that have never crossed my mind and actually makes a lot of sense, not to mention it is the most ' cost effective ', hehehe...

So that means ejecting the disc after each combining/a-b erasing done, until reaching the very last chunck to be spliced through this method and then onto recording the remainder of the freshly emptied space of the disc. The problem often manifests itself precisely when I need to combine this newly recorded bit to be a-b erased with the biggest chunk formerly edited to have both spliced together in order to finally have a complete, continuous beatmixed set of around 73 minutes. The "IMPOSSIBLE" message occurs exactly upon trying to mend the recording of the remainder of the freed space with the 66 or so minutes previously recorded and bonded together bit by bit.

 

How does Sony MDS-W1 fixes this problem? The only way I'd be inclined to try my hand at it would be trading my MDS JE-330 for a MDW-W1, not keeping the two of them as a remedy to solve the problems with the former... btw, is the MDS-W1 a netMD? Does it employ the A-B ERASE editing capabilities, or does it employ editing through dedicated software (meaning editing through waveforms)?

To be perfectly honest, I am really not looking forward to spend cash on another identical format only to cover the faults and shortcomings of the same twin format, specially when this application has been rendered obsolete by professional recording softwares. With this I'm trying to point out that the only reason I'm still using my beloved MD is because I spent a lot of money on it when bought brand new back in 2000, hence I still want my money's worth it, and also due to practicity, since my whole system is assembled together in a way that would be hard to bypass my MD in my recording sessions and not put it to use, since it is "already there and ready for the task", so to speak. I'm already very used to edit very fast through A-B ERASE, and it has became second nature to me.

 

Has anyone confirmed that using the TOC writting method solves the "IMPOSSIBLE" message problem? 

 

Edited October 20, 2015 by chrisgalbraith

[philippeb]

Has anyone confirmed that using the TOC writting method solves the "IMPOSSIBLE" message problem? 

I am sorry but PhilippeC's idea will _not_ solve your problem. What causes the problem is data fragmentation on disc, created by repeated editing. Whether the TOC is flushed to disk or not will not change the resulting data layout. This is why a dual disc deck, MDS-W1 or Denon MD Replicator, is required. These machines defragment data during the lossless copy from disc A to disc B.  Data is written sequentially on disc B, without holes, as if newly recorded and never edited.

[chrisgalbraith]

I am sorry but PhilippeC's idea will _not_ solve your problem. What causes the problem is data fragmentation on disc, created by repeated editing. Whether the TOC is flushed to disk or not will not change the resulting data layout. This is why a dual disc deck, MDS-W1 or Denon MD Replicator, is required. These machines defragment data during the lossless copy from disc A to disc B.  Data is written sequentially on disc B, without holes, as if newly recorded and never edited.

 

OK, since my last post I did some research about the MDS-W1 and it seems that it really is "the shinitz"! Really awesome equipment, and I wish I had bought it over the JE-330.

So taking into consideration my example, I'd like to see if such thing is possible: suppose I have an MDS-W1 and record the whole set (with its errors in mixing) in one take, until reaching full capacity space, and then start proceeding into combining/a-b erasing all of the separated chunks produced, just as I've been doing all these years with my faithfull JE-330.

Then, upon completing the last single combining/a-b erasing of the last chunk, I'll end up with one single track of around 65 minutes, full of choping/editing, and then proceed to complete the recording for the remainder of the newly freed empty disc space.

As a result I'll have 2 single tracks: a bigger track of around 65 minutes full of editing, and a smaller one of  9 minutes that I still need to combine with the previous bigger one and then a-b erase the in between of them to finally have what I need, and this is where I would tipically have the "impossible" message upon trying to combine/a-b erase them.

So if I have done all the recording and editing procedures so far in one of the decks (deck A) of the MDS-W1, all I'd have to do is copy the entirety of the disc (composed so far of those 2 tracks) to the other deck (deck B ) and then I'd have no problem in trying to combine the 2 tracks and then do the final and last a-b erase to make everything whole, 100% free of problems of the famous "impossible" message that I was getting so far, right?

 

Is that it, or am I missing something?

Upon transfering all the recording from deck a to deck b, the newly transfered deck receives all  the recorded material without all the defragmented info from all of the combining, chopping, cutting and mending from the original disc, which will allow me to do the final editing wihtout glitches? 

[chrisgalbraith]

1. You could upload using MZ-RH1 and edit the WAV files there

2. You could try editing with M-Crew (probably works, is my guess)

3. You could buy an MDS-W1 which will copy the tracks to a new disk leaving behind the "bits". Now the bits can be combined by simply erasing the disk.

All of these solutions cost money. By pushing the format to its absolute limit you have run into a problem Sony was completely unable to get around. I recall something like this in the early days of CP/M and DOS (heard of either of those?!) when the disk got full. I trashed countless floppy disks in similar manoevres. The problem (in that case) has to do with how the OS allocates new space. It's amazing that Sony does detect this condition and doesn't completely trash the disk as Digital Research and Microsoft both used to.

About the M-Crew (first time I've heard of it was when I read this post)...

 

It seems like a great editing software for Sony products.

My question is this, and (please excuse the newbie take on the question  ): would it work with a non-netMD such as mine (MDS-JE330)?

Can anyone point me in the direction where I can safely download it? And provided that yes, it will work along with my non-netMD (which does not have and USB connection, but only typical RCA line jacks and optical line), how can I make the right connection between the equipment and the software to work together?

 

Otherwise, I can't see how I can edit my recordings through the M-crew directly from my JE330, unless I upload a WAV version of the recorded material to edit it in M-crew, which would not be any good for me, since I could do it through Audacity software, which is what I'm trying to avoid in the first place (I only use Audacity for mastering the final edited version of the recorded work in the MD, and for this task I playback the full recording in real time so my PC can capture the MD recording via the soundcard linked to my PC...it is a long process but it is worth of it, since during this playback I run filters from my mixer and equalizer to improve the whole quality of the musics).

 

Thanks for all the help so far, guys...

[philippeb]

So if I have done all the recording and editing procedures so far in one of the decks (deck A) of the MDS-W1, all I'd have to do is copy the entirety of the disc (composed so far of those 2 tracks) to the other deck (deck B ) and then I'd have no problem in trying to combine the 2 tracks and then do the final and last a-b erase to make everything whole, 100% free of problems of the famous "impossible" message that I was getting so far, right?

[...]

Upon transfering all the recording from deck a to deck b, the newly transfered deck receives all  the recorded material without all the defragmented info from all of the combining, chopping, cutting and mending from the original disc, which will allow me to do the final editing wihtout glitches? 

Yes, and yes. The MDS-W1 is even more versatile than this.

You can do lossless copies of all, or selected, tracks from disc to disc. In other words, you can create a "mix-tape" disc, with various tracks selected from different source discs. The resulting "mix-tape" disc will contain the same defragmented data as if it had been recorded directly and sequentially. And lossless copy is performed at 4x speed.

The MDS-W1 has many other unique features.  You can copy from disc B to disc A. You can also chain disc A and disc B while recording, or playing, effectively doubling the maximum recording time, with optional 10mn overlap between the discs. the MDS-W1 also has a convenient and versatile builtin timer, that controls recording on boths decks.

Believe me, this machine is a must have for editing minidiscs.

PS Morei em São Paulo de 1983 a 1986

[PhilippeC]

philippeb, remind me how much you can find it - prix idéal - in France ?

Edited October 21, 2015 by PhilippeC

[sfbp]

About the M-Crew (first time I've heard of it was when I read this post)...

 

It seems like a great editing software for Sony products.

My question is this, and (please excuse the newbie take on the question  ): would it work with a non-netMD such as mine (MDS-JE330)?

Nope, no use for your hardware. It was available for quite a short time (until Sony figured out NetMD and took away many of its capabilities in the name of DRM). I can point you in the right direction, but by the time you've bought a suitable unit, as well as a PCLK-MN10, you may indeed be the right person to buy an MDS-W1. For most the latter is overkill. However the only place you will find one of THOSE is Japan, which is a whole adventure in itself. If you're serious, we can help.

The other solution is to get an MZ-RH1, which (by uploading) allows you to edit all the files on the PC using Sound Forge.

I have a project in hand to modify JE640/940(/?440) and MXD-D5C to work with M-Crew but it depends at present on finding the schematic for the Japanese models which actually support this facility. If anyone reading this knows enough about searching Japanese web sites to find me those Service manuals (actually find me one, and I can probably find the others) I might just get that finished. Translation of the manual is not required, just finding it - the circuit diagrams are all I need in order to modify the non-Japan models.

Having said that, the easiest M-Crew-capable model to find is probably the MXD-D40.

[chrisgalbraith]

Yes, and yes. The MDS-W1 is even more versatile than this.

You can do lossless copies of all, or selected, tracks from disc to disc. In other words, you can create a "mix-tape" disc, with various tracks selected from different source discs. The resulting "mix-tape" disc will contain the same defragmented data as if it had been recorded directly and sequentially. And lossless copy is performed at 4x speed.

The MDS-W1 has many other unique features.  You can copy from disc B to disc A. You can also chain disc A and disc B while recording, or playing, effectively doubling the maximum recording time, with optional 10mn overlap between the discs. the MDS-W1 also has a convenient and versatile builtin timer, that controls recording on boths decks.

Believe me, this machine is a must have for editing minidiscs.

PS Morei em São Paulo de 1983 a 1986

Hehe, no kidding! Actually there's where I live! São Paulo is great!

 

Thank you all very very much for all the kindness and help!

 

I'm totally convinced about the wonders regarding the MDS-W1. 

I'd be inclined to hunt one down, provided it would not cost me an arm or a leg, and if it's in great condition (I can only imagine it has been defunct for some time, now, and the only recourse to get one is the second hand market, right?).

My exclusive interest would be editing in it. 

How much am I looking into it? And where/how to find one, exactly?

Once again, thank you very much in advance!

Regards,

CHRIS

[sfbp]

Japan. There are about 4 on Yahoo at the moment. You'll need to sign up with one of the reseller services, either Buyee or FromJapan each of which I have used, or some other service (I think rinkya is another one).

And make sure you get a 100V converter for your mains voltage. Don't even think about plugging into 110 or more (Brazil is mostly 127?). Of course you may have 220 in which case you absolutely require one. You can check the specs to see if they are dual (treble?) voltage, but I am guessing not. These will be the Japanese model with 100 V supply required.