Number of Groups restricted?

[JD24]

Hello,

i read somewhere in the forum that the number of groups is

restricted to 20. Is this also true for HI-MD devices?

JD

[KJ_Palmer]

Hi, yes as far as we know at present Hi-MD will only allow 20 groups, though current group-enabled MD units allow up to 99 groups.

[Christopher]

Kevin, if you remember, that one mysterious *.pdf spec sheet said Hi-MD only has 20 groups. Whilst we can't base this information to be 100% accurate, it's what we've got for now.

[KJ_Palmer]

Oops, you're right Chris, got carried away there .

Yes, ahem, 20 groups is what we know for now...

[JD24]

What pdf are you talking about? Where can i get it?

The only information i found was that you can have 20 groups

i a program but not 20 groups total. *confused*

JD

[Christopher]

Oops, you're right Chris, got carried away there .

Yes, ahem, 20 groups is what we know for now...

Haha, I didn't mean to come off like a gestapo. :sleep: I'll be disappointed if it's only 20 groups..with supposedly 2047 bookmarks I don't understand why the group functions were so limited?

-----------

JD24, http://minidisc.org/keep/walkman_specs_fy04.pdf

[JD24]

Well, thanks but the link doesn't work.

JD

[scotthollywood]

20 groups?? :ohmy: :ohmy: that would be rediculous.. if we can put 45 hours on one disc, I would at LEAST want to put up to 45 groups...1 for each album...I hope this is not true..

[efenili]

if groups are what I think they are...then 20 is a crazy low number!!

[nietzsche]

yeah!

that's ridicolous... only 20 is very smaller... and with this groups you make the playlist...? only 20 playlist is too low, at least 40!

[nietzsche]

but these 20 groups are only available in the mz-nh900 and mz-nh!??

i've understand?!?!

Auto personal disc memory (80 / 700 tracks) 64 / 63  

what does it mean?

                                           

Program (64 tracks) /  

group program (20 groups) only mz-nh900 and mz-nh1?  

[JD24]

Auto personal disc memory (80 / 700 tracks) 64 / 63

what does it mean?

Well i guess it saves your preferences of some discs/tracks

like volume, pitch control, equalizer...

(just read it somewhere)

Program (64 tracks) /

group program (20 groups) only mz-nh900 and mz-nh1?

My interpretation of this line is that you can set up a

playlist of 20 groups. It plays the first group then second and so forth (max. 20)

In my opinion it doesn't say exactly that you only can have max. 20 groups.

(just a guess)

JD

[nietzsche]

I hope you right! :smile:

20 groups are a very poor playlist....

with ATRAC3plus 64 kbps (Hi-LP) you can make 20 grops of 1h40min... it's not awfull, but in front of the iPod the playlist function is a joke...?it's so hard to include the playlist?

[jadeclaw]

JD, look here:

The PDF

I interpret this as 20 Groups of 64 tracks each.

Then there is the personal disc memory with 500 tracks each...

Kurisu, if you somehow lost the file, pull it from there and put it up again.

[nietzsche]

thanks a lot! :smile:

but viewing your chart... it is possible to organize music in playlist with EVERY hi-md......! :smile: i hope that's true!

but what's the difference between group(i think that is such a playlist...) and the auto persdonal memory... you can organize in particular order(like the program?) but in only one long list?

i don't understand.. maybe because i don't understand english! :rasp:

[jadeclaw]

Personal disc memory is a playlist stored in the unit itself.

Depending on the number of tracks, the NH900/NH1 can memorize up to 18 discs.

Groups allow it to place a number of track into a block and to select that block directly for playback.

So you can group tracks together by genre or mood.

These Groups are stored ON the disc, so the limitation isn't really a limitation

A more detailed explanation is

here.

[JD24]

@jadeclaw

Thx for the very interesting pdf.

But i still insist on my suggestion (see previous post) :happy:

I think it makes no senses that sony points out you can

store up to 45 CDs on one Hi-MD and limit the number of group to 20 ???

Just let wait and see...

thanks a lot! 

but viewing your chart... it is possible to organize music in playlist with EVERY hi-md......!  i hope that's true! 

but what's the difference between group(i think that is such a playlist...) and the auto persdonal memory... you can organize in particular order(like the program?) but in only one long list? 

i don't understand.. maybe because i don't understand english

Imagine you have 100 tracks on one md it's pretty tough to

select a certain track by pushing the next button. And here comes

the group function you can tell tracks 1-10 be group1 (you can name

your group freely) 11-20 group2 and so forth...

If you then activate the group mode you can choose a group (just like a playlist) and the player will play all tracks in this group (e.g. track 1-10).

I you don't use the groupe mode it will play all 100 tracks.

The auto personal memory is for another use. Let's say you have 2 MDs

which one of them sounds louder than the other. You then have to change

the volume setting for each MD. The personal memory allows you to save

these settings (volume/eq...) for certain discs.

EDIT: Uuups, i think jadeclaw is right.

(I'm not 100% sure about this)

JD

[JD24]

The review from the link

i.e., you can organize your groups by artist, album, genre, etc., and you can create up to 99 groups on a single MD

So i dont think sony decrease the number of groups to 20.

JD

[jadeclaw]

Decreasing the number of groups makes no sense, especially with the longer playing time possible now.

I take that pdf with a big grain of salt.

So, I just wait and see...

[efenili]

I sure hope that its larger. With my extensive collection and incredible range in difference between music genres and artists only being able to seperate into 20 groups would be a HUGE HUGE factor in whether or not I purchase one of these devices. Thats simply because I only want the device to listen to music...the recording aspect while a nice addition is not a focus for me.

I guess we will see.

[[StrangeByte]]

Well, I thik it is all a big mistake...

I defenitely don't think Sony will decrease max number of groups to 20... But there are only 20 groups (or tracks/whatever) you can put in PROGRAM mode (or program repeat).

As I know sony always limited the number of programmable tracks to 20, at least on the very first Discman and my MZ-R900 :happy:

[nietzsche]

... but in the spec chart i swritten that the groups function is only included in mz-nh1 and mz-nh900!! :ohmy:

but if that's true, in the other model how can you organize music?

'cause if i use 48kbs atrac 3 plus, for 45 h of music, for example if i've got 600-700 songs, how can i organize it??

i hope that you do not have to to push 600 times the button to hear the last song??

thare is another method to organiza it? for me it's just a problem when i've 50/60 songs on a normal MD...

[JD24]

@nietzsche

Don't panik! I'm sure group function is enabled on all Hi-MD.

But only the top modells have group program.

(I think that's something different)

Beside that, maybe there will be some new organizing function.

http://forums.minidisc.org/viewtopic.php?t=4616

JD

[jadeclaw]

... but in the spec chart i swritten that the groups function is only included in mz-nh1 and mz-nh900!!  :ohmy: 

Hmm, after rereading the PDF, a few dislodged Euros fell...

All have the group function, the NH900+NH1 allow 20 groups to be programmed into a sequence and/or 64 tracks into a list.

[nietzsche]

thanks to all of you! :smile:

now i've (partial) understand! :wacky:

but how many groups you can create with the"standard" mode?

re-thanks! :smile:

[jadeclaw]

but how many groups you can create with the"standard" mode?

On old recorders, it was 99, on Hi-MD, I don't know. (Guess: 99 too).

[nietzsche]

thaks for all jadeclaw!! :smile:

p.s. if you go to www.sony.co.uk the release date is for june... maybe in all the rest of europe? :grin:

[nietzsche]

it's possible that i've understand the group function.... :ohmy: (that's a miracle if it's true..)

with the group function you can.. sony says -->> "It is possible to search for music categorized by groups, if they are registered at the time of recording into separate groups; for instance "my favorites" or music genres such as jazz, pop, rock etc."

i'm right?

that's the groups way funvtion of the mz-nh1 and mz-nh900...

in the other model you can orgnize your music in different mode like.... i don't know! ù

excuse to all if I a am a break-ball-person(i don't know if it's possible to say this in english... in Italian rompiballe!)but i want to know before, 'cause i'm not decided to buy 900 or 700, i'm not interested in jog-control, digital-amp and other... but I want to know only groups function... :smile:

thanks a lot!

[Spare Tire]

Aside from the limitation on the number of groups, does anyone know if there's a limitation of the number of tracks? In older MDs, i think it was limited to 255 tracks, i'm not sure if i read it right somewhere. Well, i suppose that there isn't really a limit for the drag and drop file storage but i wonder about playback.... 255 would still be a bit small for a 1gig disc.

[Christopher]

Probably a thousand or two. I'm "guesstimating" on that figure, but supposedly we are allowed 2,048 bookmarks, so it seems like a fair assumption.

i'm not interested in jog-control, digital-amp and other...

If you heard one of these digital amps you'd probably retract that statement. :happy:

[nietzsche]

If you heard one of these digital amps you'd probably retract that statement.

no, i don't... it's the quality so different?? :cool:

i've an old r500 without(off course) digital amp.... how muche the quality increase? more bass? more clear sound?

[jadeclaw]

Definitely.

However, being better than the R500 is quite easy, even the old R-37, I have now, is better.

From the Service-manual, I knew, which headphone amplifier is used, so I looked up the specifications of that one and the datasheet stated no less than 0.1% distortion at the best.

You would think, that isn't much, but the result is a compressed soundstage, that details from the recording place simply get lost, that a big concert hall gets squashed down to a little shack...

You will hear the difference, trust me.

That includes the recordings, you've made with the R500.

These will profit from the digital amp on playback as well as the R500 delivers full quality on recording.

On the other paw, the R500 still outperforms any analog cassette recorder on the market...

[nietzsche]

i use MD in not-silence-place, so the quality is usually disturbed by the external noise(bus, traffic, voices...).. however i can appreciate quality in the night(the steereo can disturb the neighbors :laugh: )

i've time to think... :wacky:

thanks jadeclaw!

p.s. I hope (and i think you like me.. :happy: ) that the launch date will be not delayed in europe like in US... at first time it was april in US and june europe.. now june US.. and europe.. september??

i want it for the summer....! :smile:

[nietzsche]

in my cd player(sony) i've 1 bit dac.. it's that the digital amplifier?

[jadeclaw]

Nope. It is the digital to analog converter.

From that point on, everything is analog.

A digital amp is something completely different and its construction is more like switchmode power-supply than an amplifier.

In fact, you can think of it as an audio controlled power supply...

I'm not going into details here, as that would require more information from Sony about the construction principles used there.

ELV here in Germany has offered a DIY-Kit for a digital high-power amp for surround sound and as a subwoofer drive.

ELV uses a module from these guys:

http://www.tripath.com/

Efficiency at 150W into 4 Ohms: 88%

A conventional amp reaches a maximum of 50%...

The kit is here. (Sorry, only in German)

http://www.elv.de/Shopping/ArtikelDetail.a...VT%2DAT&Stufe=2

Gives an impression, how small this thing is...

[The_Stamp]

On the other paw, the R500 still outperforms any analog cassette recorder on the market...

but... aren't you a dinosaur? dont you have, like, hooves or something? what ARE they called?

but ya. i believe that all MD's will be able to sort songs into tracks (probably 200) and the higher ones (900, h1) will be able to program the order of playback of groups. but i don't rally see a benefit in this, as you can set the order already (on an md). not a big deal to me.

[jadeclaw]

but... aren't you a dinosaur?  dont you have,  like, hooves or something?  what ARE they called?

Paws. With blunt claws.

... but i don't rally see a benefit in this, as you can set the order already (on an md). ...

Well, the benefit comes with the high capacity of Hi-MD-discs.

Suppose, you have 6 or 7 albums on one disc, now select Track 3 on Album 5. That's where the Group mode comes in.

Now you want to hear Album 2,5 and 6. That's, where the Group Program comes in. Saves a lot of hassle...

And extends the lifespan of the buttons as well.

[nietzsche]

i think it's usuefull, but not so important to spend 80[ much more, cosidered that i'm not interested in stick control with backlit... the only things is the digital amp... :ohmy:

[[StrangeByte]]

Nope. It is the digital to analog converter.  

From that point on, everything is analog.

...

do you mean that there is an analog step between the atrac->pcm decoder and the digital amp? to me, that sounds stupid.... i think the digital data goes directly to the digital amp.

i think it's usuefull, but not so important to spend 80[ much more, cosidered that i'm not interested in stick control with backlit... the only things is the digital amp...

ok ok... both, nh1 and nh900 have a high definition digital amp, don't they?

[jadeclaw]

do you mean that there is an analog step between the atrac->pcm decoder and the digital amp? to me, that sounds stupid.... i think the digital data goes directly to the digital amp.

Nope, in a normal CD-player with 1-bit DAC, the output of the D/A-converter goes directly or via the Volume - control into the analog output stage.

However, digital amp done the right way would mean that the Amp is an integral part of the whole signal processing/converter system - including the abillity to calculate out any imperfections of the amp.

Despite that, a well designed analog stage still outperforms any digital amp, but there is a price to pay - Split supply, +- 15 V with a few hundred milliamps just for a headphone. Not possible in a small MD-portable - Especially if there is only a single AA-cell to live off...

ok ok... both, nh1 and nh900 have a high definition digital amp, don't they?

Yes.