2004 US Presidental Election.

[aeriyn]

I'm considering locking this thread as it is turning into a heated bicker fest.

Chris did start it, and he's the admin... and I'm sure he knew it would turn into a flamewar... :grin:

[jadeclaw]

and I'm sure he knew it would turn into a flamewar...  :grin:

Flamewars are useful:

http://www.kevinandkell.com/1996/kk0611.html :grin:

[skyther]

Politics is touchy, that's why I've stayed out. :wink:

This isn't a flame as of yet, maybe just a tiny spark, but please generate discussion and debate with facts and not imaginary believes off the top of your heads.

Falcon, with 4 posts you might wanna stay out of this. Not that I'm a post wh0re, it just doesn't seem right when out of nowhere someone starts posting re a politics thread on a minidisc forum.

another reason, like a said before, was Saddam was ignoring UN sanctions. if you ignore those sanctions, how are we to kno that something isn't going on? kill it before it happens.

So, um... this sounds like the UN is nothing more another political toy for the US. Criminal law operates on the fact that people are innocent until proven guilty, not otherwise. Similarly, who gives US the right to police Iraq's actions? If I think you might be keeping something to launch a personal assault on me, does that give me a right to invade your home?

[Christopher]

Huge news today: http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/25/...ives/index.html

Your thoughts?

[Syrius]

Didn't Iraq invade Syria in the 90's? Or are you referring to the here and now?

On the subject of gay marriage... IMO marriage is defined as the coupling of a man and a woman, so I don't think there should be marriages for gays per se, however a civil union between same sexes that grant them all the same rights and privledges as married couples would be nice. I'd be content with that. :happy:

Wholeheartedly agreed. Even though I'm more or less a religious person. :wink:

For the record. Keep in mind those in power who want to grant homosexuals the right to marry, don't do so because they want to see Adam and Steve walk down the aisle. Nor those who oppose gay marriage do it because they really believe it's wrong, sinful, etc. It's all about the votes.

[jadeclaw]

Huge news today: http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/25/...ives/index.html

Your thoughts?

380 tons - That's a lot of car bombs... :ohmy:

Things like this happen, when ammmunition storages aren't guarded because of lack of personnel.

I say, expect more craters and coffins...

Btw. caught the end of a documentary about the Bush family here on public tv. In that the reporter reiterated the reason, why George Bush sen. didn't went to Baghdad. He wanted to avoid exactly what we see now.

Food for thought, I say...

[Syrius]

Do you really want to explain to me why I can't get married to the person I love? This pretty, sweet girl crying her eyes out because she doesn't understand why the government has to be such heartless bastards that they won't let her express her love and comittment to the girl she fell for? Do you want to be the person who explains how wrong what she wants is, how her mere existence is an abomination and God wishes her to be stricken dead?

Risking this to turn onto a religion flame war... God shall judge that government too. And he doesn't want you or her to be stricken dead. Period. Trust me, I know. (not that I fell for another guy or anything, but I just *know* he doesn't want anyone to die like that.) The problem is that religious leaders have forgotten that justice/authority/knowledge/whatever has to go hand in hand with mercy.

Case in point: Picture a drug addict, kneeled in the altar, screaming to Jesus for mercy, as he was truly repenting from what he had done to his body. ("Have mercy on me Lord, for I am nothing without you! No more, no more of this! No more!" He begged. Pretty shocking stuff.) No one, and I repeat, no one in the church had approached to comfort him or pray for him in the past, but oooooh... when he was begging for mercy, suddenly we have all the ushers, pastors, and deacons (sp?) come to where he was to tell him "SILENCE!!!"... because they didn't want the bishops of the church to see that. They had to keep their image. Kings of hypocrisy... They wouldn't let even Jesus walk into that church because he'd come with his long hair, and his feet all dusty from walking so much. I tell you, they had forgotten they were drunks, wife-beaters, drug addicts, thieves... shouldn't they have mercy for him, as God had it on them once?

I witnessed this with my own eyes. And left that church forever at the next day. And cursed the day I walked in first. (They told him later on to "Go and do his show outside.") &^%$#@! I could give you the address to the First Church of Hypocrisy, but for the sake of avoiding a mod-edit (and for common sense's too) I won't.

God is merciful. The church nowadays is not.

Thank you, and forgive me if I have added fuel to the fire.

Uh.. if I could vote, I'd give Kerry a chance, maybe he can fix this mess. It's been four years of nothing good. I don't understand why Bush *needs* to be reelected to get things straight. He's already in power.

Thanks again.

[aeriyn]

Wow. You're a nice religious person. :happy:

Agreed about the gay marriage issue. I would bet large monies that Bush doesn't give a rat's ass what homosexuals do; he's just pandering to the religious right and sealing their votes. Same with Kerry; he likely could care less, but says what he does as to not scare off potential voters.

Blargh.

Oh, Chris... apparently with those missing explosives, the Bush administration is now claiming they were gone before Coalition forces were ordered to guard that building.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Christopher]

Oy, funny how that story has already been buried in the news. Absoutely astonishing the day and age we live in..

Anyway, the election is so close I'm already beginning to get nervous. I read an awesome interview with John Kerry in the latest Rolling Stone..I suggest y'all check it out if possible.

[Happy Hopping]

On a lighter note: This is on Playboy Magazine this month under the Party Joke section:

The US Postal Service issued a George W. Bush stamp. It soon discovered that the stamps were not sticking to the envelopes, so it established a commission to investigate the matter. The commission reported the following findings:

1. The stamps met all regulations

2. Nothing was wrong with the adhesive.

3. People were just spitting on the wrong side.

[Bananatree]

I'm super excited for the election. Just as excited about the world series.

[BJ]

Interesting thread. Of course I have to add a couple cents...

I enjoy how the Bush administration keeps repeating that John Kerry has no plan for how to handle Iraq. The implication is that the Bushites DO have a plan. I find this amusing. The Bush administration has no clue what to do over there. If they did, "Mission accomplished" would have meant exactly that.

I also like the slant on the weapons article: the very first line mentions that the stolen explosives could be used to detonate nuclear warheads. This fact is repeated throughout the article, giving the impression that this is their primary use, and that nuclear armageddon is upon us. More likely, the explosives will be (have been) divided up and sold to the highest bidders for smaller scale attacks--probably not even close to American soil. The alarmist angle always makes me laugh--I find Fox News more hysterically funny than Comedy Central.

All these hot buttons--abortion, gay marriage--are designed to be the ONLY thing that sways people to vote for one candidate or the other. And these issues are presented with no context or allowance for grey areas. Personally, I am pro-life AND pro-choice. I'd rather abortions didn't happen, but they do, and someone else's business is not mine. I will not meddle. Also, the fundamentalists seem to forget that church-sanctioned marriage was adapted from pagan binding rituals so the Christian church could buddy up to the pagans under the "See how similar our religions are" umbrella. And most pagan religions have no problems at all with same-sex marriages. Great--so you can't get married in a Catholic church, but what right does the government have to deny you marriage at all?

To base your vote solely on a candidate's stance on one of these inflamitory issues is dangerous. I read a breakdown on CNN.com (sorry, lost the link) of each candidate's stance on most topics from abortion to welfare and so on, and found myself agreeing with a number of Bush's beliefs. However, I sided with Kerry more often on issues I find more important.

Okay, that's enough. I'm shaking I'm so scared--I really do think Bush will be re-elected, because I have very little faith in the intelligence and level-headedness of my fellow Americans. If they wouldn't keep proving to me how childish they are (present company excluded, of course), I'd have a little more faith.

Speaking of faith (and then I'll shut up), it's impossible to keep church and state separate. Once again, the human factor messes up the machine. People are very devoted to their church, usually more so than to their religion. It's so ingrained that they sometimes have nothing else to fall back on. When they go to the polls, they're thinking about what their chruch friends have been saying during the campaign.

People need to question the goings-on around them. Faith tends to muddy up the need to pursue knowledge, replacing it with a kind of passive comfort. Why try to understand the world/universe/whatever when we can take comfort in the belief that some omnipotent being already knows it all and will take care of us? I'd like to have an argument someday with a Christian that doesn't use the Bible as an objective reference book. There is so much in the universe that we will never understand, comprehend, or even perceive. Attributing it all to a mythical being takes the wonder out of it.

Gonna hold my atheistic tongue now, before I rant for hours. Good discussion, folks.

[aeriyn]

Wow.

I really only have one response to that rant which has trumped my own.

Word.

:laugh:

[Syrius]

Um, BJ. For the sake of accuracy, religious-sanctioned marriages were being performed even before the times of Moses. It's not like the church was trying to sell out to the pagans. (At least not the in the times of the Patriarchs.)

But that would imply having to use the Bible as reference, which is something you don't want to see in an argument.

[dex Otaku]

Syrius: what we were talking about is -modern Christianity's- version of marriage, which is what the lawmakers seem to think they abide over. Which they shouldn't. Religious marriage and civil marriage should be combined if so desired, but need not be.

Civil marriage should stand on its own without the meddling of religious authorities. Period.

In many countries [such as here in Canada] a man and woman who cohabitate for long enough are considered "common-law married" and are entitled to certain of the same civil distinctions as a legally married couple are, such as certain differences in how taxes are calculated and paid.

Yet - two people of the same sex who live together, say, for 40 years [whether they are in a sexual relationship or not is actually irrelevant] and are clearly financially codependent [among other ways] are not afforded the same distinctions. Why not? Other than the two people having sex with each other, sharing a bed, &c. - what's the real difference?

In Canada certain parts of common-law cohabitation have been slowly being legally/civilly recognised over the past ten years or so. So why, if those two people -do- happen to be sleeping together, should we deny them the same rights as a man and woman who are together? Because Christians find it offensive?

Well.. I'm sorry, but no government should base itself on Christianity, let alone any religion. The church[es] should be thrown out of government altogether, whether municipal, territorial [state[province/department &c.] or federal. Religion has no place in government whatsoever. Period.

Unless, of course, 100% of the population subscribe to that religion, which you won't find anywhere on earth.

Bush and his cronies like to essentially dictate policy based on their religious fervour, which is just plain wrong - not to mention the fact that it directly contravenes one of the amendments to the US constitution.

Using church doctrine as reasoning to potentially endanger the lives of every single woman living in the United States is a crock of sh*t [it spreads much farther than merely the issue of abortion]. Using it to discriminate against people, whether because of skin colour, spoken language, gender, sex [and yes, they are two distinctly different things], sexual preference, and yes - religion - is simply wrong. Using religious beliefs as reasoning for any policy whatsoever is wrong.

And yet - they do so on a daily basis and the US population, by and large, sits there and lollygags without saying a word because they're too numbed by television and prozac and years of standing under a two-party system that is utterly ludicrous to stand up and speak for themselves and their neighbours.

People have clearly forgotten what democracy is for.

I'll say it again, and I wish the entirety of the US could hear me shout it at the top of my lungs at them:

WAKE UP.

[aeriyn]

Whooooaaaa...

Chris, you really started something here. Although, I think the marriage topic was brought up by me. :laugh:

dex, there is "common-law" marriage in some states of the US; Alabama has it. Personally I think it's a bunch of crap because of how people use the common-law marriage to their advantage and to their previous or current partner's detriment.

Completely agreed on separation of religion and government. A government that presides over millions of people, all with different religions, spiritual beliefs (or lack thereof) cannot be so biased as to side with one sect.

Objectivity is the name of the game. Unfortunately, no one in the US government is truly objective, because the American public at large is, well, stupid.

The Average American knows nothing. He has no real knowledge. All he has is a set of media fantasies and prejudices that he clings to as if they are sacred truths. Of course religion injects some of its own brand of spiritually-induced chaos into this average American. The average American is happy in his ignorance, and refuses to seek the truth.

Yesterday, at work, I heard some good ol' boys arguing with someone about the election. While I won't list all the particulars here, the most profound statement uttered by one of these rednecks was, and I quote: "I'm gunna vote fer Bush, cuz he likes killin' those towel-heads."

If my eyes were capable of rolling so hard they popped out of my head, they would have. I'd seriously like to kick that guy's ass, and not only for his racist remarks. Ugh...

If I could, I'd collectively kick America's collective asses. I get really tired of feeling ashamed of being an American. Although, I don't know. My grandmother says she thinks a Japanese family must've left me in America while they were on vacation. :laugh:

[Syrius]

Well..  I'm sorry, but no government should base itself on Christianity, let alone any religion.  The church[es] should be thrown out of government altogether, whether municipal, territorial [state[province/department &c.] or federal.  Religion has no place in government whatsoever.  Period.

Uh, Utah? :rasp:

[aeriyn]

Uh, Utah?  :rasp:

He has a valid point, Syrius. A nation that is comprised of hundreds of millions of people, who all have very different religious and/or spiritual/philosophical beliefs... the government cannot play favorites, both morally and pragmatically.

However, because people can't think for themselves, we have what we have.

Why is thinking for one's self so unpopular?

[dex Otaku]

Why is thinking for one's self so unpopular?  

#1 reason: because religions tell people it's a bad thing to do. Another debate entirely, there.

[skmetal07]

religions don't tell u to not think for yourself, they tell u to think morally and follow your conscience.

[Syrius]

I know, Aeriyn. Just pointing out how some laws in Utah have been influenced by the Latter Day Saints church sometimes. (IIRC, there is something about bars having to be very discrete or something. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)

[Christopher]

Well, just got back from voting..turn out is amazing this year and I really think it's going to be a well-rounded election. I've got a good feeling about Kerry! :grin:

[Christopher]

George Bush has won. I'm moving to another country..

[dex Otaku]

Disgust.

Absolute disgust.

This is what I feel towards the people of the United States of America [who voted for Bush].

Disgust and pity.

Congratulations, you have just near-guaranteed that the world will descend into hell.

[important to note: not through my doing, or some easterner's - but through GW Bush's doing, and yours.]

[Hyena]

George Bush has won. I'm moving to another country..

There you go, mate. Start packing.

[Christopher]

haha, that's a good one Hyena. Should I be buying you a ticket as well?

All in all, the only justification I can really have for Bush is that we're in the middle of a major confrontation and never in the history of the United States have we switched presidents in such a scenario. But then again, was this confrontation necessary? Aren't the true problems in North Korea and other seemingly unstable nuclear countries?

Only time will tell. Iraq is irrelevant to me now. My thoughts are to the west..and hopefully that Bush will be able to ride the wave so that we can at least see 2008 without another World War.

[Hyena]

haha, that's a good one Hyena. Should I be buying you a ticket as well?

If I could afford it and carry on successful life outside of the United States, then yes. :happy:

As it stands neither is possible, so looks like I'll be staying here for awhile. :rasp:

But anyways, Bush got elected.

It's not the end of the world folks.

You can quote me on that. If I'm wrong, no one will be alive to tell me any different.

[aeriyn]

I'm voting for Hillary next time if she runs, or whomever runs for the libertarian party if she doesn't.

[xispe]

damn it...

[Christopher]

Something that I've come to really dislike about Bush is this, and this fact alone is why I didn't vote for him amongst the myriad of other negative facts that revolve around his presidency:

The way he is representing democracy. If anyone here remembers, there is supposed to be a seperation between church and state. Bush has completely ignored this and has publicly stated that God has influenced a majority of his decisions. This is why he has won the election with such people; if you're a regular in the church and hear such sentiments from the President, and do not from the contender, who would you vote for?

Furthermore, good job Bush. Let's adhere to religion and then institute Democracy abroad into places that are heavily influenced by religion. What's going to happen when these countries evolve in to Democratic states and then adhere to religion? :rasp: Then we've truely accomplished nothing.

Additionally, the reason why he won the midwest is because I believe that the majority of the people there do not have a clear and valid opinion about the real workings of the United States. The reason why he has won in those states is because they don't have a clear view of the policies and actions that Bush has taken, whereas the businesses and people who have worldly endeavors that live on the coast(s) have clearly voted for what should've been. It's clearly evident that Kerry has won the majority of the east and west coast, with the exception of a few southern states [alot of those states were very close]. I can keep throwing facts into that sentiment, but I don't need to. Do some research and you'll see what I'm speaking of.

[BJ]

Yeah....sure am kind of depressed right now. However, Sen. Clinton did announce she will run in four years. I'd vote for her solely to have Bill as "First Husband". Hee hee hee.... I'd like to see him redecorate the White House and host tea parties.

It'd be even funnier if, in the mean time, she kicked his butt out and got herself a new "First Husband". :rasp:

[skyther]

God believes in war and abuse of power? :wacky:

[aeriyn]

Bush isn't a real Republican. He's a caricature of what a liberal's worst nightmare of a conservative would be.

Also, this isn't a democracy. We live in a republic, which is controlled by representatives rather than the individual...

Well, just think. Our government is slow as it is; it would grind to a halt if every single one of our 260 million plus population was allowed to have a direct say on it.

[Syrius]

The way he is representing democracy. If anyone here remembers, there is supposed to be a seperation between church and state. Bush has completely ignored this and has publicly stated that God has influenced a majority of his decisions. This is why he has won the election with such people; if you're a regular in the church and hear such sentiments from the President, and do not from the contender, who would you vote for?.

Kurisu. Praying and statements like that don't make Bush more of a christian, than standing in a garage makes of me an SUV. If he *really* adhered to christian values (doing what is right, and not what you want), things would be different, way different. I won't say more. But I will for certain be more than happy to get those T-shirts and stickers that say "Don't blame me. I voted for Kerry." (Or in my case, "I didn't vote for Bush")

EDIT: I have therefore changed my sig. If the mods don't approve, let me know and I'll fix it. Thanks.

[aeriyn]

Praying and statements like that don't make Bush more of a christian, than standing in a garage makes of me an SUV. If he *really* adhered to christian values (doing what is right, and not what you want), things would be different, way different.

Couldn't agree more.

However, I still agree with both Chris and dex; a nation as spiritually diverse as ours must have a government completely separated from the interests of the various religious sects.

I believe in a less powerful central government; a minimalist government and a major restructuring of everything contained within said government. Simplify everything: taxes, retirement, etc.

Occam's razor holds true in almost every situation ("Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily.")

[Christopher]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Jun30.html

p.s. - I wish to make sure the previous point I was trying to raise about religion and democracy [w/ Bush] was understood a little more clear; I was a little busy at work so I didn't give it my full attention.

Nonetheless, it's very important at this time for Bush to completely alter the way he is doing business. I cannot stress church and state any more, but again and again Bush will cite it in his speeches [and his "actions"]. Ugh, listening to him talk is like a hammer hitting a nail, except this one is missing too often.

It's very important that the role Bush plays can be one that a little more tasteful than this transgressor for peace and justice. If we had done this a little bit easier, with more sanctions and diplomacy, things wouldn't be so erratic. So, when we try to install this mentality, Democracy, hellions trying to reform the world according to our religion and way of life, what do we convey?

What's stopping from these Democracies in the Middle East from acting on their religion? The consequences of George Bush leading the way he does is hurting us more than ever now, but it will scorn far worse in the future.

Plainfully obvious is the fact that the image we send to the rest of the world will not only make us look like fools, but completely misrepresent the American way of life and image, and possibly the decline of a once-great nation. Doomsaying? It all starts somewhere. No "empire" lasts forever.

This is so stupid. All of this. What is even the point of becoming intelligent? Sometimes I just wonder if things would be better in the stone age. At least we weren't smart enough to kill each other in massive quanities and procure feelings and emotions that should never have to be felt by anyone or anything in this universe.

Do I sound like a hippy? Get off me, I am one. :rasp:

[aeriyn]

All the great empires fell either by corruption from within or foreign migration.

[aihe]

Plainfully obvious is the fact that the image we send to the rest of the world will not only make us look like fools, but completely misrepresent the American way of life and image, and possibly the decline of a once-great nation.

I'm sure not everyone on this forum or all people living in the rest of the world regard Americans in a bad light because of the actions of the US. Government.

Doomsaying? It all starts somewhere. No "empire" lasts forever.

Yes I agree but I'm pretty sure the "American Empire" will see me out. :smile:

However, I still agree with both Chris and dex; a nation as spiritually diverse as ours must have a government completely separated from the interests of the various religious sects.

I think all western countries are going thru the same sort of experience - ie. the rise of the religious right. It seems strange that apart from the war in Iraq, issues like same sex marriage or the granting of defacto status to same sex couples are just as much of an issue here as perhaps in the US. Strangely enough it is not the mainstream churches here kicking up the biggest stink over these issues, but it is the born-again fundamentalists, charismatics and the extreme right wing (so called religious) politicians that are the real stirrers. Politicians who promise heaven and deliver hell, politicians getting into office to line their own pockets, jobs disappearing off-shore, the widening gap between rich and poor - we got these in this country as well.

The fact that over 50 million Americans did not vote for Bush seems to be a positive sign.

[jadeclaw]

A link and a pic:

17 Reasons not to slit your wrists

And the pic:

[Syrius]

I'm sure not everyone on this forum or all people living in the rest of the world regard Americans in a bad light because of the actions of the US. Government.

Unfortunately, this is true in part. My mom and my stepdad went to France 18 months ago, and some people in the street would stop and yell to my stepdad to "Go back to the USA, you imperialistic american pig!"

Of course not everyone would say that to him. Those who did, got a piece of my mother's mind (who happens to be a Scorpio, and was born in the state of Mexico with most scorpions in the country :wink: ) in english, spanish, and french. :laugh:

Take heart, however. Regardless of the mistakes the presidents of the country may have made, it's you the people, the ones who make it great. :smile: