Digital Recording From Dvd Player

[md-max]

Lovely shiny new NH900.

But when I connect it with the optical cable that came with it to the optical out of my DVD player, why do I get the error message NO DIGITAL COPY. The manual is of course useless. Surely the copy protection that stops me re-recording digitally from MD to MD to MD doesn't also apply to DVDs? Perhaps I've got some settings wrong?

[emmrecs]

Lovely shiny new NH900.

But when I connect it with the optical cable that came with it to the optical out  of my DVD player, why do I get the error message NO DIGITAL COPY. The manual is of course useless. Surely the copy protection that stops me re-recording digitally from MD to MD to MD doesn't also apply to DVDs? Perhaps I've got some settings wrong?

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I THINK the answer is incompatible sampling rates. DVD is normally 48kHz (or higher) and MD is 44.1kHz. Digital copy can only work when sampling rates are exactly matched.

Jeff

[dex Otaku]

I THINK the answer is incompatible sampling rates.  DVD is normally 48kHz (or higher) and MD is 44.1kHz. Digital copy can only work when sampling rates are exactly matched.

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All MDs resample their input, so 48kHz data should be fine. [They even resample 44.1kHz input signals.]

Perhaps you're trying to play AC3 audio over the line.

You can only copy PCM soundtracks.

Most DVDs do not have PCM soundtracks.

[md-max]

Is there any way of telling whether the DVD has a PCM soundtrack?

Is there any way of altering the output of the optical out socket on the DVD player?

And if I put a CD in the DVD player (which I can) to record it digitally (I haven't got any other equipment with an optical out), would I have the same problem?

Thanks

All MDs resample their input, so 48kHz data should be fine.  [They even resample 44.1kHz input signals.]

Perhaps you're trying to play AC3 audio over the line. 

You can only copy PCM soundtracks.

Most DVDs do not have PCM soundtracks.

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[Bananatree]

I would assume that there is some digital copy control as well.

However, Dex is correct. You can't copy something like a DTS stream. Check your DVD player's manual, I know my player has some audio output settings that I will assume can change from whatever to PCM.

[dex Otaku]

Is there any way of telling whether the DVD has a PCM soundtrack?

Is there any way of altering the output of the optical out socket on the DVD player?

And if I put a CD in the DVD player (which I can) to record it digitally (I haven't got any other equipment with an optical out), would I have the same problem?

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A CD should work fine.

The soundtrack formats are sometimes printed on the cover for a DVD. I've found PCM tracks to be pretty rare; they're always stereo, so trying the stereo version soundtracks on various DVDs might evenually find something that is PCM.

Most stereo soundtracks are 192kbps AC3 too.

Seems silly to me.

[jadeclaw]

Check the DVD-player menu.

Most have a setting, called "Stereo mix".

Mine has, I can select between "Stereo Mix" (always PCM 44.1kHz)

and "5.1" (Dolby/DTS - what the DVD has.).

Btw, mine puts out normal PCM, when a normal CD is in -

regardless of the setting.

(Did I say, that it hates copyprotected CDs? )

[ROMBUSTERS]

(Did I say, that it hates copyprotected CDs? )

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once again punishing people who actually buy their CDs

although its odd that your DVD has problems with it. By chance is it a cheaper DVD player because the only time the copyprotection should make a CD have difficulties playing is when the CD player is software driven. If the DVD player is on the cheaper end it might not actually have a CD decoding chip instead opting for a software version (although i highly doubt CD decoder chips cost that much anymore)

[Justin42]

once again punishing people who actually buy their CDs

although its odd that your DVD has problems with it. By chance is it a cheaper DVD player because the only time the copyprotection should make a CD have difficulties playing is when the CD player is software driven. If the DVD player is on the cheaper end it might not actually have a CD decoding chip instead opting for a software version (although i highly doubt CD decoder chips cost that much anymore)

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Not necessarily true, many of the copy "protection" technologies actually write errors into the disc that most CD players *should* ignore, but don't always. You can't blame them, the players are just doing their job-- they see a read error, they try to correct it, but the error correction code is "poisoned" so that it's totally bogus, which confuses the CD player. As such, they are technically not "compact discs" in the trademarked sense of the word. They are physically tampering with the Red Book CD standard. Philips (as the owner of the CD technology) has made rumblings in the past about suing companies who use this sort of protection (as breaking the licensing terms), wish they actually would do it and not just threaten.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/01/18/ph..._to_put_poison/

I've actually heard the problem affects as many ultra high end audiophile CD players as low end ones...

Edited February 4, 2005 by Justin42

[ROMBUSTERS]

fair enough but shouldnt a CDs error correction generally only come into play when:

A) the laser looses track

there's a scratch on the disc

C) there's a read error

Because the CD correction code is basically placing the same audio data on the disc twice (more or less) in case it missed it the first time around

So in theory if your using a very well premastered disc it shouldnt even need to fall into the correction code correct? (this is of course before the player would even need to start ignoring it)

[Justin42]

fair enough but shouldnt a CDs error correction generally only come into play when:

A) the laser looses track

there's a scratch on the disc

C) there's a read error

Because the CD correction code is basically placing the same audio data on the disc twice (more or less) in case it missed it the first time around

So in theory if your using a very well premastered disc it shouldnt even need to fall into the correction code correct? (this is of course before the player would even need to start ignoring it)

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No, because it's reading the error correction code to see if there IS an error. It needs both to detect (and correct) an error. The correction code works with the data, it's not just the data a second time. It's basically a checksum, like "if the total of the read data is THIS, then everything's OK." Bad data can cause a player to panic... this is at a physical bit layer, not even the audio layer. Some players just ignore the error data and sends it on through, others may flag a read error and keep trying to re-read (and can NEVER read it "properly" as the bad error data says it's bad every time)...

Another way they work (I think this is more common now) is to put bad data in the discs's table of contents in such a way that PC readers freak out but music CD players somehow ignore it...

There are 2-3 major ways of doing it... there is a pretty good, but somewhat outdated, article at http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq02.html#S2-4

Basically, how your drive/player handles protected CDs depends on how your CD player/drive reads the data, how picky it wants to be, how it handles errors, and the condition of the disc. A lot of times, in either cheap or high end (strangely) hardware, they try to read the disc the same way a computer rips audio-- bit for bit. Cheap units do it because it's simple to build the hardware (very PC-controller like) but then output using cheap hardware; expensive units do it for bit-accuracy and then output via expensive hardware. But the problem is much of the copy protection works by making the disc hard to get a bit-for-bit copy of due to the bogus information in the disc, so players that work like this are the ones that freak out first.

Edited February 4, 2005 by Justin42

[Syrius]

To reply directly to the original poster: DVDs have Serial Copy Management System on the audio tracks. Meaning, that a MD will not copy. Try going into your DVD's setup option and change the output to either Raw, PCM or Stereo. Or disable dolby digital. Your player may then output the sound as PCM or something that doesn't carry the "No copy" flag. Cd's should work ok.

[dex Otaku]

To reply directly to the original poster: DVDs have Serial Copy Management System on the audio tracks. Meaning, that a MD will not copy. Try going into your DVD's setup option and change the output to either Raw, PCM or Stereo. Or disable dolby digital. Your player may then output the sound as PCM or something that doesn't carry the "No copy" flag. Cd's should work ok.

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SCMS is unrelated to this.

PCM tracks contain SCMS flags. Streams in other formats basically don't need SCMS, because unless the device at the other end can recognise what type they are [as PCM-EXtensible streams] they are completely useless.

Incidentally, I find it interesting that so many here keep mentioning DVD players that will transcode AC3 to PCM; I have never seen this feature before. I've never had cause to look for it, but still - the first thing I do with most players is acquaint myself with their interface and features [especially looking for plain stereo vs. dolby stereo downmix options for people without surround systems].

Since 1998 I have done this with around 300 players, and have never seen one that will transcode audio formats.

[Ryzir]

I use this to copy DVD audio to minidisc Ace Dvd Audio Extractor

I have tried just about every DVD audio extractor and this one is the best.

I recommend extracting audio as one track then using CD Wave to split into tracks.

[streaml1ne]

Incidentally, I find it interesting that so many here keep mentioning DVD players that will transcode AC3 to PCM; I have never seen this feature before.  I've never had cause to look for it, but still - the first thing I do with most players is acquaint myself with their interface and features [especially looking for plain stereo vs. dolby stereo downmix options for people without surround systems]. 

Since 1998 I have done this with around 300 players, and have never seen one that will transcode audio formats.

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My Denon can do this. There's an option on the digital out to either output normally or downmix to stereo PCM. Works with a DTS version of Sting's Brand New Day I have. Leave it on normal and the AVR sees a DTS stream. Set the Denon to out PCM and the AVR sees a regular stereo PCM stream. I don't remember if my Harman DVD player had an option like this. Maybe it's a universal player thing.

[dex Otaku]

My Denon can do this. There's an option on the digital out to either output normally or downmix to stereo PCM. Works with a DTS version of Sting's Brand New Day I have. Leave it on normal and the AVR sees a DTS stream. Set the Denon to out PCM and the AVR sees a regular stereo PCM stream. I don't remember if my Harman DVD player had an option like this. Maybe it's a universal player thing.

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Nice..

I wish I could find someone with an 8-channel sound card [8 input] and an SACD player. I can't afford an SACD player and would love to hear the 5.1 mix of Dark Side of the Moon [yes, I own it].

[streaml1ne]

Nice..

I wish I could find someone with an 8-channel sound card [8 input] and an SACD player.  I can't afford an SACD player and would love to hear the 5.1 mix of Dark Side of the Moon [yes, I own it].

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It's..... Good It was the second SACD I bought and a welcome improvement over the Police Synchronicity SACD I had which was effectively the CD version on a new format...

Once I get some quarter inch to XLR adapters I can record it. Only at 48kHz though... Old Antex Studio cards...

[dex Otaku]

It's..... Good  It was the second SACD I bought and a welcome improvement over the Police Synchronicity SACD I had which was effectively the CD version on a new format...

Once I get some quarter inch to XLR adapters I can record it. Only at 48kHz though... Old Antex Studio cards...

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I have a DTS transcode of the Police disc [which I also own] and some of the tracks are not badly done. They obviously had a different approach to mixing than PF would.. or Peter Gabriel. "UP" in DTS is amazing.

I've always been a big Polic fan.. so it was a had-to. I find the remixes of the stuff from Syncronicity are nice. The effect is more subtle than with other such re-dos, but still nice.

[streaml1ne]

I have a DTS transcode of the Police disc [which I also own] and some of the tracks are not badly done.  They obviously had a different approach to mixing than PF would.. or Peter Gabriel.  "UP" in DTS is amazing.

I've always been a big Polic fan.. so it was a had-to.  I find the remixes of the stuff from Syncronicity are nice.  The effect is more subtle than with other such re-dos, but still nice.

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Unfortunately the SACD of Synchronicity is stereo only. It just didn't sound different compared to the original CD. It actually made me shy away from buying any other SACD's for a while because I expected about the same from others. I've since picked up Brubeck's Time Out, Alice in Chains Greatest Hits, Journey's Greatest Hits and Dark Side and they're all markedly improved over their respective CD's. Some improvements are more subtle than others, but it's still there. Heavily recording/remastering dependent it seems.

[v965hdss]

I use DVD Audio ripper, rip into file then burn onto a RW Disc........then using SonicStage 2.3 transfer onto MD.

Dead easy you can convert to MP3 or wave.

[streaml1ne]

I use DVD Audio ripper, rip into file then burn onto a RW Disc........then using SonicStage 2.3 transfer onto MD.

Dead easy you can convert to MP3 or wave.

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This won't work with DVD-Audio spec DVD's. In that case you're ripping a DTS or Dolby Digital compatibility track for DVD-Video players. Unless of course you're lucky enough that the particular DVD-Video you're ripping has LPCM tracks on it.