A Little Question About The Atrac/atrac3/atrac3+

[Guest tony wong]

is these true?

atrac3 have...

132, 105, 66 to choose

atrac3+ have....

48, 66, 256 to choose

and...

LP2 = atrac3 132(not atrac3+)

LP4 = atrac3 66(again, not atrac3+)

it is so confusing that, it seems that there are information about atrac3+ appears in minidisc.org which say that there are not only 3 choice for atrac3+

(I remember I read one or two years ago)

so, can anyone answer my simplest question :

(whereas a staff in hk sony showroom cannot answer directly)

is LP2 always equals to ATRAC3 132kbps?

(ATRAC3 but not ATRAC3plus)

thx first

[Christopher]

You forgot Linear PCM.

But yes, those are choices available to Hi-MD users, and yes, LP2 is ATRAC3 132kbps.

Here's a handy chart: http://www.sony.net/Products/Hi-MD/capacity.html#3

[ROMBUSTERS]

the real question is regarding Atrac3 105kbps - its a Sony 'non-standard' bitrate which kinda doesn't make sense.

It almost as if:

Atrac3 LP2= 132kbps

Atrac3 LP3= 105kbps

Atrac3 LP4= 66kbps

[Fast Eddie]

Why doesn't it make sense?

[zerodB]

ATRAC3 105kbps was originally for Sony Network Walkmans.

I guess Hi-MDs can use that bitrate now too.

[atrain]

105 can be transferred to netmd aswell, at least it could with 2.0 - my copy of 2.0 pre-connect was a networkwalkman disk & that was the default setting. i wondered why the first disc sounded so crappy & re-recorded it paying actual attention.

[Michael1980]

105 is transferred to NetMD with 132 wrappinng, making the unit think it is playing lp2.

[Guest tony wong]

105 is transferred to NetMD with 132 wrappinng, making the unit think it is playing lp2.

←

more clearly it should be storing in 132 format(ATRAC3)

(it will convert at computer side to 132 format first, then transfer the data to NetMD unit)

wrapping seems a misleading word, as it may imply the data itself is in 105 format

it takes some time for me to understand the whole thing :

for NetMD, only ATRAC(292) and ATRAC3(132 and 66) is chooseable

for Hi-MD, there will be 2 mode for the disc(for both Hi-MD disc and MD disc)

one is Hi-MD format(u have to choose it before u put anything into it)

u can choose all format except ATRAC(292)

and the other one is MD format

u can choose ATRAC and ATRAC3(132 and 66)

(more clearly it's SP, LP2, LP4)

[Guest tony wong]

the reason on posting this topic is simple :

I should have heard in minidisc.org that ATRAC3plus is there when NetMD release(about 2 years ago)

it's dxxx stupid for them not to include ATRAC3plus on NetMD

and I was always thinking NetMD did include ATRAC3plus since ATRAC3plus appears before NetMD(thanks to the earliest information from this site)

[Michael1980]

It doesn't convert, it just transfers 105 Atrac3 in 132 wrapping.

[Guest tony wong]

It doesn't convert, it just transfers 105 Atrac3 in 132 wrapping.

←

in NetMD unit?

[jadeclaw]

Correctly. You see this in the fact that 105 and 132kBit have the same playing time.

HiMD is different, on that 105kBit gives you longer playing times.

And LP2 has nothing to do with Atrac3plus,

it is the normal Atrac3.

[Michael1980]

in NetMD unit?

←

Yes. Similar like it can transfer 132 Atrac3 in SP wrapping I guess.

[atrain]

anyway i wouldn't advise unsing it. it feels closer to lp4 than lp2, lp2 for me being a nice blend of size to quality on a portable

[ROMBUSTERS]

Yes. Similar like it can transfer 132 Atrac3 in SP wrapping I guess.

←

to my understanding when it transfers SP it basically just sends the audio data and it is recorded via the portables recorder instead of being transfered 100% digitally like the other modes, but i could be wrong.

On netMD models 105 is transfered as 132 with no file converstion but rather just a wrapping. This goes back to the size of the sector on a standard 60/74/80min MD

[WARNING THIS IS NOT ACTUAL FACT BUT MORE OF A SIMPLIFICATION FOR THOSE THAT DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE COMPLEX NATURE OF DISC STORAGE]

For example, sony made the orginial MDs for use with Atrac 292kbps therefore you can think of each sector at approx that size.

292/2 = 146kbps ~ 132kbps; bit loss = 14

292/4 = 73 ~ 66kbps; bit loss = 7

however:

292/3 = 97.3kbps which would be around 105kbps except this is impractical because it is not enough to store even 3 second of audio (i.e. the division rate). 292/105 = 2.8 meaning you cant fit 3 seconds so your basically stuck with 2 seconds. But then again thats what you get with 132kbps as well; 292/132 = 2.2 and with less waste.

This is the probably reason sony left out LP3 for netMD's.

Anyways back to the beginning 105 is sent to the recorder wrapped in 132 tags and this works without converstion because they basically take up the same amount of data per sector so storing it as 132 makes no difference.

By the by if your curious 292/66 = 4.4

[jadeclaw]

to my understanding when it transfers SP it basically just sends the audio data and it is recorded via the portables recorder instead of being transfered 100% digitally like the other modes, but i could be wrong.

Yes, you are wrong on this one.

It is LP2 with a compatibility wrapper, so that standard MD-player can read it.

On netMD models 105 is transfered as 132 with no file converstion but rather just a wrapping. This goes back to the size of the sector on a standard 60/74/80min MD

That is an actual fact. The rest of the sector is padded.

For example, sony made the orginial MDs for use with Atrac 292kbps therefore you can think of each sector at approx that size.

292/2 = 146kbps ~ 132kbps; bit loss = 14

292/4 = 73 ~ 66kbps; bit loss = 7

The difference has a reason: Normally, it should be possible to label a track as non playable. But since not all manufacturers adhere to that standard, Sony decided to add a second safeguard by marking every sector as non-playable as well,

preventing standard players from playing back LP2/4 tracks.

So, 20 bytes per sector are lost for simple lack of planning.

however:

292/3 = 97.3kbps [...]

←

Of course, simply dividing doesn't work, see above.

[Guest tony wong]

did u guys know u can check the file size of specific after u import into SS?

to find the fact is simple

just download that song to NetMD, delete the track on pc(completely)

upload this song again to pc, and check the file size or just do a hexical comparision u can know the answer

personally, I don't think NetMD like N10 will record something in ATRAC3@105 mode

[ROMBUSTERS]

personally, I don't think NetMD like N10 will record something in ATRAC3@105 mode

←

we've just established that any netMD with SonicStage will transfer an Atrac105 file to any netMD recorder

[atrain]

furthermore i've done it by accident IRL. tony you don't need to answer every post.

[Guest tony wong]

Yes. Similar like it can transfer 132 Atrac3 in SP wrapping I guess.

←

well, I do question about the possibility whether such "wrapping" exist

a non-MDLP player cannot play MDLP track, right?

I did it once :

I upload a ATRAC3plus@256 track to NetMD via SP transfer

yes, the old non-MDLP compatible player can play it

it does mean the content of the track is ATRAC 292kbps, right?

[ROMBUSTERS]

well, I do question about the possibility whether such "wrapping" exist

a non-MDLP player cannot play MDLP track, right?

I did it once :

I upload a ATRAC3plus@256 track to NetMD via SP transfer

yes, the old non-MDLP compatible player can play it

it does mean the content of the track is ATRAC 292kbps, right?

←

NO! lol

your confusing the issue with something completely different and completely off topic. I'm glad you are a part of this forum and that you are very into posting but please hold off on posting random information that will confuse people.

[FACT]

-codec wrapping exists and works but *only* in the case of transferring Atrac3 105kbps to a netMD. It wraps the file without converting. Therefore the MD thinks its playing back a 132kbps file however you only get 105kbps sound quality.

-Atrac3+ cannot be played back on netMD or pre netMD units. The file is first reconverted in SonicStage before transfer to netMD

-if you put a MD with Atrac3 audio on it into a pre netMD unit it will not play any of the audio.

-you cannot transfer true Atrac (i.e. Atrac SP) when using SonicStage. It first converts the filw to 132kbps then sends it via USB to the recorder where it is resampled and interpreted into Atrac SP. It is possible in this way to make a MD created using SonicStage play in a pre netMD unit

[Guest tony wong]

-codec wrapping exists and works but *only* in the case of transferring Atrac3 105kbps to a netMD. It wraps the file without converting. Therefore the MD thinks its playing back a 132kbps file however you only get 105kbps sound quality.

←

I just wonder why u r so certain about the storing format of a 105 song is really 105 in MD disc

anyway, do u know where to find the .omg(is it right?) of ur songs in SS in ur pc?

to check whether that is true, just try download and upload same song, the truth will come out

I will do it later

[ROMBUSTERS]

I just wonder why u r so certain about the storing format of a 105 song is really 105 in MD disc

very simple way to check. If two files are encoded one in 132kbps and one in 105kbps the first one will be larger due to its greater bit rate correct?

now transfer the first song to the MD, note the recording time remaning

delete that song and transfer the second song to MD

the recording time remaining will be identical - but how is this so if one file is smaller than the other? it is because it is wrapped in 132 to preserve uniform compatibility

anyway, do u know where to find the .omg(is it right?) of ur songs in SS in ur pc?

to check whether that is true, just try download and upload same song, the truth will come out

I will do it later

←

Tools > Options > Location To Save Recorded Files

[zerodB]

I think tony is just really confused about whether SS converts 105 to 133 on your computer before transfering to your MD disc, (in the sense that 133 is converted to SP in fake-SP mode), or whether 105kbps is the actual bit rate of the music on your disc when 105kbps oma files are transfered via sonicstage (with extra padding/wrapping to maintain compatibility)?

BTW tony, we have the same bookshelf unit, mine's blue.

[ROMBUSTERS]

maybe an Atrac3 decoder can playback any Atrac3 file no matter the bitrate. I remember if you out a netMD Atrac3 MD into a standard MD it'll show odd things depending on the bitrate but maybe in the Atrac3 decoder it doesnt matter as much.

In this way the file could be transferred to the MD wrapped in a 132kbps meta file, appear to be a 132 file for the display, and yet still playback without converstion.

[bug80]

maybe an Atrac3 decoder can playback any Atrac3 file no matter the bitrate. I remember if you out a netMD Atrac3 MD into a standard MD it'll show odd things depending on the bitrate but maybe in the Atrac3 decoder it doesnt matter as much.

In this way the file could be transferred to the MD wrapped in a 132kbps meta file, appear to be a 132 file for the display, and yet still playback without converstion.

←

I think so too. But then, it maybe should be possible to send high bitrate ATRAC files to a NetMD with the same size as SP files (at least, I guess the files should have a certain "apparent" bitrate because of sectors etc). And if that's possible, it would be very nice if Sony would implement that feauture in next version of Sonicstage.

In that case, we would have the benefit of ATRAC files up to 256 kbs on our NetMD, and Sony still can use DRM on the files (it seems that DRM doesn't work on SP files).

Or am I wrong?

[ROMBUSTERS]

no ur not wrong but it would all have to be done within the confines of the Atrac3 codec. it couldnt be done in the Atrac codec because that has fixed everything (i.e. bit rates, sector lengths etc).

but yes theoreticaly sony could come out with a 96kbps Atrac3 bit rate if they wanted to and i see no huge reason why it wouldnt work

[bug80]

But you don't think ATRAC3 audio at a bitrate > 132 kbs would be supported by NetMD units? Even it has the same apparent bitrate as SP?

EDIT: In other words, do you mean that 132 kbs is the maximum bitrate supported by the ATRAC3 format?

Edited February 25, 2005 by bug80

[Michael1980]

I am a bit confused, isn't SP = 296 Atrac3?

[ROMBUSTERS]

I am a bit confused, isn't SP = 296 Atrac3?

←

no SP is 'Atrac' at 292kbps, there are various hardware version of Atrac though, they range from ver 1.0 to 4.5

Atrac3 standard MD bitrates are 132kbps/66kbps

LP3 introduced with sony network walkmans use Atrac3 at 105kbps.

To answer the other question I have no idea if 132kbps is the highest Atrac3 can go, however with the introduction of 105kbps i assume it can be anywhere between 132kbps and 66kbps

[Michael1980]

Oh okay. In that case we have never seen an Atrac3 go higher than 132kbps it seems.

[jadeclaw]

no SP is 'Atrac' at 292kbps, there are various hardware version of Atrac though, they range from ver 1.0 to 4.5

Atrac3 standard MD bitrates are 132kbps/66kbps

LP3 introduced with sony network walkmans use Atrac3 at 105kbps.

To answer the other question I have no idea if 132kbps is the highest Atrac3 can go, however with the introduction of 105kbps i assume it can be anywhere between 132kbps and 66kbps

←

Atrac3 can go higher, I think, the maximum is 512kbps.

RealPlayer is using Atrac3 since version 8 and can play a multitude of bitrates.

But, MD-recorders are a different thing, since Atrac3 was defined here with 132/105/66kbps, I'm pretty sure, it will refuse anything else.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

did u guys know u can check the file size of specific after u import into SS?

Yes, just right click on the track in SS, select 'Properties, then select the File Info tab in the following dialogue.

to find the fact is simple

just download that song to NetMD, delete the track on pc(completely)

upload this song again to pc, and check the file size or just do a hexical comparision u can know the answer

No. Doesn't work. First, NetMD doesn't upload. Period.

Second, HiMD doesn't upload anything, that has been downloaded from a PC.

personally, I don't think NetMD like N10 will record something in ATRAC3@105 mode

←

Not standalone. There you have SP@292kbps, LP2@132kbps & LP4@66kbps.

LP2@105kbps is only possible with Sonicstage. Since it doesn't extend the playing time on a NetMD recorder, stick with LP2@132kbps.

For those with a HiMD unit, 'Menu' --> 'Display' --> 'Codec' shows the Codec used and the bitrate of the currently played track.

I hope, that is clear by now.

[ROMBUSTERS]

Atrac3 can go higher, I think, the maximum is 512kbps.

RealPlayer is using Atrac3 since version 8 and can play a multitude of bitrates.

But, MD-recorders are a different thing, since Atrac3 was defined here with 132/105/66kbps, I'm pretty sure, it will refuse anything else.

yes but thats also a different extention of Atrac3 all together. There is an Atrac3 codec you can get for WMP that will play WAV files (actually Atrac3 files but with a .wav extention). This is similar to the way RealPlayer does it however it is completely different then the way MDs do it.

There you have SP@292kbps, LP2@132kbps & LP4@66kbps.

LP2@105kbps is only possible with Sonicstage.

although 105kbps is 'defined' as LP2 in SonicStage i believe it began life as LP3 for network walkmans (please correct)