Recording From Radio Or Bbc Website

[md-max]

Three questions...

1. If I record from FM radio, is there any advantage in quality by using Hi-SP over Hi-LP? Would PCM make a noticeable difference or is it not worth it, given the quality of the source material?

2. Would I get a better quality recording if I used the audio out from my cable TV box (which I can get radio stations on) instead of FM radio?

3. The BBC offers a huge number of programmes on its website 'listen again' service. With a headphone socket on my PC I can easily record them to minidisc to listen to when it's convenient to me. It can sit there recording all day at work - hurrah for broadband! Does anyone know what sort of quality they would be? [edit - aha! if I maximise the radio player window, it says 44kbps - but I have to confess to not really understanding what that means, relative to other audio signals... hmmm and if I open the programme in the BBC radio player instead of realplayer then it shows a higher number, which varies but seems to settle at around 60]

I am assuming this is significantly worse than FM / cable. Would Hi-LP be good enough to 'match' the quality that I will be getting, or does it not work like that? Should I always use Hi-SP over Hi-LP (and accept smaller recording time per disc)because I'll get a better result regardless of the input quality?

Hope this makes sense. I'm confused by having too many options!

Edited March 9, 2005 by md-max

[jadeclaw]

1. : If your FM-Tuner is high quality (>100 UKPounds), then HiSP is recommended. Unless we're talking about Talk-radio or the Archers.

For that, Hi-LP is sufficient. PCM is not necessary, regardless if you record from cable or FM.

2. : If the radio-programs delivered digitally, then the quality is better, especially when using digital out from the cable-box.

3. : Hi-LP is fully sufficient for the live stream , as the programs are delivered at 44kBit real audio, so the source material is the limiting factor here.

The non-live programs are delivered at a higher rate, 96kBit as i remember correctly, LP2 at 105k would be suitable for that.

Since direct recording is not available at that rate, use Hi-SP and convert in

SonicStage to save space or accept a small loss and use Hi-LP.

[Justin42]

The problem is you're then double encoding. If it's just talk or something, HiLP is fine, but if it was music at all, I would use HiSP. The thing is, the poor signal has already been compressed massively-- doing another compression, using an entirely different codec (ATRAC) is going to really hurt the sound quality. So you want to use the most 'transparent' format available to you to minimize this quality drop. Try it out, if it's music, I bet you will hear a HUGE difference between HiSP and HiLP, even on a 44kbps source.

[md-max]

The problem is you're then double encoding. If it's just talk or something, HiLP is fine, but if it was music at all, I would use HiSP. The thing is, the poor signal has already been compressed massively-- doing another compression, using an entirely different codec (ATRAC) is going to really hurt the sound quality. So you want to use the most 'transparent' format available to you to minimize this quality drop. Try it out, if it's music, I bet you will hear a HUGE difference between HiSP and HiLP, even on a 44kbps source.

←

Thanks, I wondered whether this might be the case. I'll try it out, but it sounds like basically the answer is to leave my NH900 permanently set to Hi-SP (saves all that fiddling about).

[cfairfowl]

I use HiSP for BBC Radio 3 from a DAB radio tuner using the opt. output from tuner and opt. in on my NH700. This is as good as you are likely to get from radio (DAB or FM) using MD or DAT, I have used both and don’t use DAT anymore the lowest common denominator is the wireless.

I also do similar from a second DAB tuner for BBC radio 4 and due to the low bit rate LP2 or even LP4 is more than adequate for spoken word. I don’t bother using HiSP for whispering Bob Harris (BBC Radio 2) as again the bit rate is so low the sound quality is crap from DAB, FM is probably better for all but Radio 3 and if you can use satellite (or freeview)** with an opt output you will notice an improvement.

** not all DAB radio stations are available on Freeview.

[MusicBringer]

I don’t bother using HiSP for whispering Bob Harris (BBC Radio 2) as again the bit rate is so low the sound quality is crap from DAB, FM is probably better...

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yeah me too. I record Bob's show(s) - have done for years. I don't use DAB at all.

I record from FM Tuner direct to Minidisc deck, using standard MDs. The sound is adequate but nothing fantastic. Although this is far far better than recording from the Listen Again facility. That is absolutely awful quality (crap is too good a word to use!).

[md-max]

I use HiSP for BBC Radio 3 from a DAB radio tuner using the opt. output from tuner and opt. in on my NH700.

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Do you find DAB significantly better than FM? I've never bothered getting a DAB receiver - heard too many people moaning that they're not all they're cracked up to be.

FM is probably better for all but Radio 3

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Why not Radio 3?

[cfairfowl]

The tuners are excellent but the bit rate is too low in this country to benefit from them.

The public have been hood winked into DAB with all the bollocks about “CD” quality. CD is 70’s technology 44kHz 16bit. Broadcaster have been forced to use the slogan crystal clear and not CD quality because they infringed trading standards, what a joke, the UK has the lowest bit rate on DAB in Europe even Estonia uses 254kbps for music.

I prefer Radio 3 DAB because of the low noise and it is “OK” at 192kbps (where I live I could never get a clean FM signal so DAB suits me better) as for the other stations some you can’t get unless you use DAB but you are better of using FM, Satellite or Freeview. If I knew then what I know now I would have gone for the Satellite option (Sky) and used a digital output.

Before you part with your money check out your options, a Freeview box will give better digital radio than a DAB tuner and it will be a lot cheaper. Check to see if you will get the stations you want.

http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/links.htm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/digital/radio/

[jadeclaw]

Do you find DAB significantly better than FM?

←

I speak just for Germany: Soundwise, DAB is far better than FM over here.

Problem: The limited number of frequencies.

Decision here was less programs, better quality, so most channels are encoded with 160 to 192 kBit.

In the UK, it was more programs, less quality, but that route was one of the reasons,

why DAB was that successful in the UK and quite a flop in Germany.

But then, you have a bunch of programs, where the sound is not much better than FM or even in Mono.

So, in Germany, you buy DAB for its sound, in the UK you buy it for the programs, especially, when you live in and around the big cities, as it gives you a lot of programs not available on FM.

The national and regional ensembles are here

The local ensembles are listed here

Btw, everything at or over 128kBit stereo or 80kBit mono is better than FM.

Oh, and it is always noise free.

[Latexxx]

Generally speaking, FM is better than DAB if you can get hissless reception. Actually DAB sucks so severely that it was completely decided to shut down in Finland three weeks ago. DAB suffered from a chicken and egg problem here: there were no commercial radio broadcasters utilising DAB, so nobody wanted to buy a radio. And on the other hand, nobody wanted to broadcast because there were no listeners and broadcasting in digital besides analog creates additional costs.

N.b. In Britain it is cheaper to broadcast in analog and digital than on analog only. This due to license fees.

[imkidd57]

I concur in full with cfairfowl's observations. Recording off-line is an alternative...

In the UK, if you have a decent PC, buy a DVB-T card (eg Hauppauge Nova-T, or Nebula version: PC World were selling the former at £49.99 not long ago). This allows scheduled recording of the Freeview radio broadcasts and digital audio (MPEG1 Layer II 48kHz 192kbps) can be easily decoded and saved as PCM. Then edit/record to MD at your leisure.

For those of an adventurous nature, and you have (or are willing to have) MCE2005 as an OS, there are Hauppauge drivers out there which enable the stable use of dual cards (ie record two things simultaneously).

Edited March 10, 2005 by imkidd57

[jadeclaw]

Btw, expect better DAB-Sound in the future:

New MP2-Encoder

Just like Atrac improved over the time, MPEG1 Layer II is still developed further.

Of course, it is fully compatible with existing receivers.

For those, not knowing what's all about, listening samples are here

Btw, DAB @ 128k sounds better than FM at my place.

Reason: Due to the height here, there is no noise free reception possible via aerial.

On cable, the provider is too dumb to provide a clean FM signal. And it sounds muddy as well.

So it is digital cable or DAB for me.

[cfairfowl]

Jadeclaw "" DAB @ 128k sounds better than FM at my place.

Between a rock and a hard place! I too could not get a clean hiss free FM signal so DAB is the better option for me. For all it’s faults I have enjoyed thousands of hours of excellent programming form both FM and DAB but the most important ingredient in this is my “Fantastic” MiniDisc machines, without them I would have missed thousands of hours of my favourite programs.

I would say people should not be put off listening to the wireless it has a lot to offer and by utilising the MD machines you can cherry pick what you want to listen too and when.

Edited March 11, 2005 by cfairfowl

[jadeclaw]

That's true.

Finally, it is the program that counts.

Aside from that, my place has its advantages as well,

like the 60 miles range on 435MHz with just 1 Watt on a quarter wave groundplane

or the 4 DAB ensembles ( two from Belgium, one from Holland and of course our own here).

[Michael1980]

Hey, I have Sky, but no digital out.

How can I get a new box with optical out, do I have to buy it?

[Latexxx]

Hey, I have Sky, but no digital out.

How can I get a new box with optical out, do I have to buy it?

←

I would just use analog out. Difference isn't really significant.

[cfairfowl]

quote=Hey, I have Sky, but no digital out.

How can I get a new box with optical out, do I have to buy it?

Take a look and take your pick...........

http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/dsat_rx.htm

[dex Otaku]

Hey all. Thought I'd throw in my $0.02 here -

In Canada there are very few broadcasters using DAB, and these are only, to my knowledge, in major centres such as Toronto and Vancouver. I've been trying to find a directly of Canadian DAB broadcasters but so far haven't had any luck.

Satellite radio is somewhat popular, but most people I know with satellite systems don't even use the free radio channels that are available. I have met very few people who use subscription satellite radio services.

Where I live we've gone from having 4 FM stations c.1999, and this includes CBC radio 1 [mono], CBC radio 2 [stereo], and SRC [the French CBC, in mono], to having something like 7-8 in our area. That's still including the CBC and SRC stations, though we now have a college station that barely covers the city [pop. 38,000] as well as several commercial stations, most of which moved from AM to FM stereo.

Our selection here is rather limited; the commercial stations are, without exception, pop radio and therefore do not interest me or any of the people I know. No one I know even listens to them in the car if they can help it. Most of the people I know are avid supporters of the CBC, the college station, and finally the newest offering that is moving to be province-wide [Manitoba is 2.5 times larger than the entire country of France in terms of land mass, with a population of only 1.5 million], which is totally run by aboriginal Canadians. They have the best programming of any of the commercial or semi-commercial stations.

My biggest beef with the commercial stations is not with their programming [i'm simply not part of their demographic], but with their on-air broadcast quality.

The CRTC basically legislates certain minimum-quality mandates for broadcasting. In recent years this must have changed to a lower minimum standard; all of the commercial stations here use music database systems that do their playlist logging automatically [logging being required by law to track content for royalties distribution]. All of this is done on computer, of course - the stations no longer use cart tapes, CDs, LPs or anything but what's on their hard discs, and basically don't even require mixers other than for turning the DJ mic on and off - not that the DJ is anything like a DJ any more.

The quality issue comes into play with the database systems they're using. 5 seconds listening to any of these stations and you know right away that their databases are encoded using MP3 at no greater than 128kbps, or a similar low-bitrate, low-quality encoding method. I often ask people to turn their radios off because the artifacting, which plays perfectly clear as a bell over the air, is so completely awful. I don't know how anyone can stand listening to it, myself. Even AM stereo analogue sounds FAR better than this.

-----------

DAB is totally nonexistent here. I have never seen a receiver for sale in this province, which makes sense as there is no programming available.

Canada is generally regarding in tech and broadcast publications as a success story for Eureka, though I still know of no one, even in major centres, that even knows of DAB stations in their area let alone has a receiver.

An interesting note is that the CRTC and Canadian broadcasters chose to adopt the same system as Europe and the UK [DAB / Eureka, using MP2], where the US's official system is IBOC [from iBiquity]. This is the only move the CRTC has ever made to deliberately distance Canada from the US in terms of broadcast signals; otherwise we share identical over-the-air systems with them in all regards [i.e. NTSC television, odd-carrier FM broadcast, &c.].

Note: CRTC = Canadian Radio Telecommunications Commission, our equivalent to the US's FCC.

[jadeclaw]

Hey all.  Thought I'd throw in my $0.02 here -

In Canada there are very few broadcasters using DAB, and these are only, to my knowledge, in major centres such as Toronto and Vancouver.  I've been trying to find a directly of Canadian DAB broadcasters but so far haven't had any luck.

Try it here: http://www.cab-acr.ca/drri/links.shtm

Manitoba is 2.5 times larger than the entire country of France in terms of land mass, with a population of only 1.5 million

No wonder, that noone had the idea to invest in DAB.

The ROI isn't simply there.

My biggest beef with the commercial stations is not with their programming [i'm simply not part of their demographic], but with their on-air broadcast quality.

Welcome to the club. Artefacts and Optimod make it a true listening experience. *BARF*

The CRTC basically legislates certain minimum-quality mandates for broadcasting.

Could it be, that these standards are only there to ensure, that the stations don't interfere with each other and to keep spurious emissions to a minimum?

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DAB is totally nonexistent here.  I have never seen a receiver for sale in this province, which makes sense as there is no programming available.

According to this Site, Manitoba is DAB-free.

Canada is generally regarding in tech and broadcast publications as a success story for Eureka, though I still know of no one, even in major centres, that even knows of DAB stations in their area let alone has a receiver.

I'm wondering, if it is true for Toronto? 5 high quality ensembles are available according to this Site.

All sending from the CN-Tower.

An interesting note is that the CRTC and Canadian broadcasters chose to adopt the same system as Europe and the UK [DAB / Eureka, using MP2], where the US's official system is IBOC [from iBiquity].

←

IBOC has serious problems, when it comes to compatibility and coexistence with existing analog transmissions.

AM and FM-listeners alike report additional noise and reduced range even on stations, that don't use IBOC.

Maybe the CRTC has foreseen these problems.

[cfairfowl]

Your raising this issue has prompted me to investigate the possibility of getting free view in my area. I have been toying with the idea for a while so I have a guy coming to check the signal level for me. If the signal is good I will buy the

Sony VTXD800 freeview box (it has optical digital output) I can plug this into my MZ NH-700 and I will be interested to how Bob Harris sounds.

DAB wirele sucks for all except BBC Radio 3.

[Michael1980]

Just to make sure, does FreeView offer all the same radio channels as Sky (and same bitrate)?

[dex Otaku]

Could it be, that these standards are only there to ensure, that the stations don't interfere with each other and to keep spurious emissions to a minimum?

Broadcast standards for both radio and television here *used* to include rules about the quality of your sources. Broadcast TV was not supposed to come from consumer VTR sources, for instance. Radio broadcasts for voice did not have to follow the same rules as broadcasts for music; music was supposed to follow minimum standards as to quality, at least for the majority of content used. Overnight broadcast could be done with extended-play open reel tapes that ran for hours on end but were of much lower quality, as an example.

In the old days of analogue, the minimums meant that daytime broadcasts had to come from sources such as "high-quality" tape [probably inferring at least 3.75ips], LP, or 45rpm vinyl.

Now it appears that anything goes; the current music database systems commonly in use here are far lower in audible quality than cassette tape or vinyl.

Commercial radio here is virtually unlistenable as a result.

[md-max]

Just to make sure, does FreeView offer all the same radio channels as Sky (and same bitrate)?

←

Sorry Michael1980, no idea about bit rates but here's the list of radio stations on freeview: http://www.freeview.co.uk/whatson/radio.html

I don't have Sky so don't know what you've got on that (or more importantly, what particular stations you listen to!)

[Michael1980]

Thanks for the response.

It seems Sky does have more channels but the ones I listen to are on Freeview as well. Remember seeing the Sky bitrates all to be in pretty good range (192-256), would be good if FreeView had the same ones.

[jadeclaw]

I say, check the Listening samples page,

there you have the bitrates.

The samples from DVB-T (Freeview) and DAB are unmodified captures from the digital data stream, so the bitrate given is identical to the samples.

[Michael1980]

Judeclaw,

Do you know the upto date bitrates for Sky Digital radio channels?

Thanks

EDIT: It appears FreeView = Sky is most cases (Sky has higher bitrate on some stations).

Now the £1 question: What would you recommend: Good FM reception vs Digital Mp2 192kbps through analogue out?

Edited March 16, 2005 by Michael1980

[cfairfowl]

Michael1980 "Just to make sure, does FreeView offer all the same radio channels as Sky (and same bitrate)?"

No, but the ones I want are on freeview with higher bitrate.

Edited March 16, 2005 by cfairfowl

[cfairfowl]

Now it appears that anything goes; the current music database systems commonly in use here are far lower in audible quality than cassette tape or vinyl.

Commercial radio here is virtually unlistenable as a result.

←

Edited March 16, 2005 by cfairfowl

[jadeclaw]

Jadeclaw,

Do you know the upto date bitrates for Sky Digital radio channels?

Thanks

Nope.

As I can't subscribe to Sky Digital.

I'm sittin' here in Germany.

But even if I could, I wouldn't

Rupert Murdoch will not get a single dime from me. Not in my whole life.

This guy is just a threat to democracy.

Now the £1 question: What would you recommend: Good FM reception vs Digital Mp2 192kbps through analogue out?

←

I would say, the MP2 delivers the better quality,

as analog FM introduces additional noise and nonlinearities into the signal.

Analog FM has a resolution equivalent to 10 to 12 bits - depending on the quality of the tuner.

-----------------------------------------

Sadly you are 100% correct, like I said "DAB wireles sucks for all except BBC Radio 3."

←

I wouldn't necessarily blame DAB directly, we have similar problems here, as some commercial stations manage it to deliver a quality considerably lower than the DAB-bitrate suggest.

When it sounds like a 64k WMA-stream, then someone at the originating station needs to be slapped real hard.

Btw, this topic has been discussed thoroughly on the Pro-DAB forum over here.

[imkidd57]

Your raising this issue has prompted me to investigate the possibility of getting free view in my area. I have been toying with the idea for a while so I have a guy coming to check the signal level for me. If the signal is good I will buy the Sony VTXD800 freeview box (it has optical digital output) I can plug this into my MZ NH-700...

If you find you can receive Freeview, and would consider spending some more (total ~£160), then the Thomson DHD4000 PVR has two digital tuners (record 2 things at once), a 40GB HDD and a 14 day EPG which would allow scheduled and unadulterated recording of all the Freeview radio broadcasts. It has both optical and coaxial digital outputs. You can do all the fancy stuff as per DAB, such as pause-live-broadcast and chase play. It is virtually the same as Sky+ but without the subscription (and obviously the content).

This way you can still have the flexibility of DAB, but with better quality, and programmable recording to a reliable storage medium. Archiving to HiMD via the TOSLINK can be done at your leisure.

Oh, and you can use it for the telly as well...

Edited March 19, 2005 by imkidd57

[Latexxx]

I would say, the MP2 delivers the better quality,

as analog FM introduces additional noise and nonlinearities into the signal.

Analog FM has a resolution equivalent to 10 to 12 bits - depending on the quality of the tuner.

←

I wouldn't. The compression artifacts bother me much more than noise which isn't really a problem with good reception.

Some links.

Freeview vs. DAB

FM vs. DAB

[MusicBringer]

If you find you can receive Freeview, and would consider spending some more (total ~£160), then the Thomson DHD4000 PVR has two digital tuners (record 2 things at once), a 40GB HDD and a 14 day EPG which would allow scheduled and unadulterated recording of all the Freeview radio broadcasts. It has both optical and coaxial digital outputs. You can do all the fancy stuff as per DAB, such as pause-live-broadcast and chase play. This way you can still have the flexibility of DAB, but with better quality, and programmable recording to a reliable storage medium. Archiving to HiMD via the TOSLINK can be done at your leisure.

←

Hello imkidd57, this sounds like an interesting option. It is one I shall consider myself. Do you have a Thomson DHD4000 PVR? How good are they. So, can you record like, a three hour radio programme (Bob Harris) onto HDD and then copy the bits you like onto standard minidisc.

Edited March 20, 2005 by MusicBringer

[imkidd57]

Hello imkidd57, this sounds like an interesting option. It is one I shall consider myself. Do you have a Thomson DHD4000 PVR? How good are they. So, can you record like, a three hour radio programme (Bob Harris) onto HDD and then copy the bits you like onto standard minidisc.

Yes, I have the Thomson. There were issues with the early firmware, in that radio broadcasts tended to stutter, but that has been cured by a substantial over-the-air firmware upgrade since just before Christmas, and the newer boxes are shipping with the newer version already installed.

Anyway you certainly can record to the PVR HDD like that by selecting programmes from the EPG, or setting record times manually. However you cannot directly edit the recording on the PVR - just transfer it to MD and use the far superior editing facilites there. Of course there's nothing to stop you listening to the recording, then if you hear something you like, then rewind on the PVR, set the MD to <REC> and then re-play on the PVR.

I'm about to set up an old JE520 permanently to do just this - I'll confirm by the end of the day whether it works with standard MD.

[1kyle]

Hey, I have Sky, but no digital out.

How can I get a new box with optical out, do I have to buy it?

←

Yep -- but there's also a downside to this as well unless you do some fiddling.

If you've been a sky customer for some time you could get a relatively cheap upgrade with a built in Dolby decoder. I prefer just the plain optical out where you can use a separate decoder (Dolby / DTS etc) if necessary.

I route the signal into a cinema decoder as well --some movies have great sound tracks to record -- but when they use DTS there's some Macromedia or other crap in there that stops the optical out from my decoder from giving a signal into the minidisc recorder. The Dolby 3.2 encoding yields "recordable" sound however.

For most music (Radio) on the Sky system optical out works fine --but the source isn't always as good as you would expect. BBC R3 and Classic FM are pretty good but for the rest a decent FM receiver still seems to sound better IMO --probably due to the fact that the better sound quality (in theory) from the satellite shows up how horrible some of the source media really is.

[Michael1980]

Yep -- but there's also a downside to this as well unless you do some fiddling.

If you've been a sky customer for some time you could get a relatively cheap upgrade with a built in Dolby decoder. I prefer just the plain optical out where you can use a separate decoder (Dolby / DTS etc) if necessary.

I route the signal into a cinema decoder as well --some movies have great sound tracks to record -- but when they use DTS there's some Macromedia or other crap in there that stops the optical out from my decoder from giving a signal into the minidisc recorder.  The Dolby 3.2 encoding yields "recordable" sound  however.

For most music  (Radio) on the Sky system optical out works fine --but the source isn't always as good as you would expect.  BBC R3 and Classic FM are pretty good but for the rest a decent FM receiver still seems to sound better IMO --probably due to the fact that the better sound quality (in theory) from the satellite shows up how horrible some of the source media really is.

←

How do I get the upgrade, and do you know what the price is? I have been a customer for about 5 years.

Thanks

[Michael1980]

I wouldn't. The compression artifacts bother me much more than noise which isn't really a problem with good reception.

Some links.

Freeview vs. DAB

FM vs. DAB

←

In my situation, the noise was too much in FM reception.

It'a a pitty since I prefer the warmer sound of FM.

[MusicBringer]

I'm about to set up an old JE520 permanently to do just this - I'll confirm by the end of the day whether it works with standard MD.

←

Hope all goes well for you imkidd57 - let me know how you get on. I am esp interested in the sound quality. How close does it come to the everyday "CD Quality" we all talk about.

[imkidd57]

Hope all goes well for you imkidd57  - let me know how you get on.

Well my daughters had other plans for me this evening, so I just finished some brief testing with some portable MD recorders. I had set Whispering Bob's programme to record via the EPG, which occurred fine. I listened to about 40 min of the recording, then plugged in the MD to record. As expected, everything works through the TOSLINK cable and recording to Sony MZ-R50 (true SP), Sharp MD-MS702 (true SP), and Sony MZ-N10 (pseudo-SP) was straightforward, as if you were recording from a tape. I cannot see any reason why it wouldn't work with an MD deck, but will try ASAP.

I am esp interested in the sound quality. How close does it come to the everyday "CD Quality" we all talk about.

Well, it starts off as Freeview, which you will have gathered from other posts is MPEG1 Layer II at 192 kbps, and then undergoes ATRAC transcoding, so it's never going to be CD quality. You can read all sorts of opinions on this, but the fact remains that any radio transmission is never going to be approaching CD or master source analogue quality. I tend to find the sound coming from individual portable MD recorders to be quite different, and certainly for me this has more influence on the audio quality than the encoding. However to my ears the quality of Freeview broadcasts is still quite excellent, and these ears are old enough to recall FM hiss, tape hiss even at 15 ips reel-to-reel, the effect of analogue companding devices to remove it, and never mind the audio cassette nightmares...

If you have a strong and reliable Freeview signal, keeping recordings in the digital domain, combined with the convenience of setting a recording electronically with EPG up to 14 days in advance, and using the other features of a PVR (pause-live, rewind-live, listen-for-up-to-30-min-before-deciding-whether-to-record- the-whole-program-to-HDD), it has the capacity to make your life considerably easier.

As I said before, you can do all this with your TV programmes as well. Freeview TV audio is MP2 at 256 kbps, so if there's a simulcast then that would be the one to go for.

[MusicBringer]

Wow imkidd57, what a write-up! You've certainly explained a lot of things for me. And yes I grew up with reel-to-reel. I bet you remember taping Alan fluff Freeman on a Sunday afternoon.

Yeah, me too. I have a number of daughters - I think it was three at the last count. I guess they are like yours growing up and taking control. I encourage it. They can look after me then. They know more about the video side of things so I'll be talking to them about this Thomson box. Sounds as if it is what I want for music/radio, and I bet they won't moan about the TV bit.

The missus hasn't said much which means "I 'spose you're going to get one". Now which shops do you suggest I try...

[atrain]

if you were recording into the n10 from the same lineout as the others then it is in fact, true SP also. good to hear this works however.