Surrender to Hi-SP

[valurot]

I've been fooling around with my U.S. RH10, and after much experientation with custom EQ settings and varying compression rates, I've resigned myself to the unhappy fact that Hi-LP's sound quality isn't sufficient. And, boy, how I've tried to convince myself otherwise!

So here's what I'm getting at:

1. Is Hi-MD *actually* a more worthwhile format than MDLP? 80 minute discs are at least 6 times cheaper than the 1 GB discs, and 6xLP2 > 1xHi-SP in terms of storage volume. So, dollar for dollar, LP2 is a far better bargain.

2. Can Hi-MD units be hacked for a compression rate somewhere between Hi-LP and Hi-SP?

3. What are your opinions on the the sound qualiy of the Hi-MD compression rates? A friend of mine (with an NH1) questions my sanity for my dissatisfaction with Hi-LP.

Overall, I realize I'll need to buy 4x as many Hi-MD discs now to archive my music collection (CD/vinyl). Ugh!

[LupinIV]

1) you can transfer LP2 to Hi-md formatted disks using Sonicstage. There you go!!!

2) The compression "somewhere between" Hi-LP and SP is, infact, LP2

3) LP2 sounds, to most, better than Hi-LP, but it depends also on the type of music you listen to.

Cheers

[The Low Volta]

1. yes, as you can't compare LP2 to Hi-SP IMHO, Hi-SP><SP would be better and you'd get much more on a disc (even on a reformatted 80min) in Hi-SP than in SP so dollar for dollar Hi-MD is a better bargain, as I like quality over quantity (otherwise I'd just buy a 20gig i-puddle or something)

2. you can still transfer atrac3 (132kbps) and other bitrates through SS (just check your software) without any hacks...have you even read the user manual or just played with it?

3. I started out with atrac3 (132kbps) but after buying some better headphones and ripping a couple of CD's in Hi-SP and noticing the difference I now only use Hi-SP for listening and Hi-SP or PCM for recording

4. why use Hi-MD as archive media? IMHO they are way to expensive for that... just encode into FLAC and write to DVDR or even CDR, they are really cheap (compared to Hi-MDiscs and if you copy them each five-2-ten years, there's only a very little chance the media will have degraded, aspecially if you stock them right)

5. if you want to listen cheap (or just because you have to as you can't find any Hi-MDiscs around any more ) buy a lot of cheap 80min-discs and reformat them as Hi-MD

greetings, Volta

[valurot]

You can use LP2 with HI-MDs? When I use Simple Burner, I only receive 4 options: 48k, Hi-LP, Hi-SP, and PCM... Can I rip CD's to MD using SonicStage?

Hm.. I'm intrigued.

[The Low Volta]

You can use LP2 with HI-MDs? When I use Simple Burner, I only receive 4 options: 48k, Hi-LP, Hi-SP, and PCM... Can I rip CD's to MD using SonicStage?

Hm.. I'm intrigued.

←

as I said read the help/manuals...you can't rip CD's directly to MD with SS...but rip to library, transfer, delete files from library

[valurot]

Volta, what's this FLAC you're talking about? And can it be used for archiving vinyl? I just figured that MD would be the easiest way to archive vinyl... No?

[1kyle]

You can use LP2 with HI-MDs? When I use Simple Burner, I only receive 4 options: 48k, Hi-LP, Hi-SP, and PCM... Can I rip CD's to MD using SonicStage?

Hm.. I'm intrigued.

←

Depends on what unit you have --on 1st gen units you need to set Disc Mode (in the Menu) to MD mode (default is HI-MD) then SS will give you the SP/LP2/LP4 options.

I don't know about 2nd Gen units --my Hi-MD unit is a NH1.

As far as 1GB Hi-MD discs are concerned --again you pays your money and takes your choice --but as you can get 80 Min discs for less than 1 € each (around 60p or approx 1 USD) I'd go for a pack of 200 80 Min discs unless you really need the 1GB disks.

You can reformat to HI-MD if and when you need to.

Cheers

-K

Cheers

-K

Edited June 23, 2005 by 1kyle

[corien]

Volta, what's this FLAC you're talking about? And can it be used for archiving vinyl? I just figured that MD would be the easiest way to archive vinyl... No?

←

It is a lossless compression format. It is free and there are plugins for WinAmp. Like Volta, I use it too for archiving purposes.

http://flac.sourceforge.net/

[dex Otaku]

1. Is Hi-MD *actually* a more worthwhile format than MDLP? 80 minute discs are at least 6 times cheaper than the 1 GB discs, and 6xLP2 > 1xHi-SP in terms of storage volume. So, dollar for dollar, LP2 is a far better bargain.

Yes. Especially considering the fact that you can more HiSP tracks on a HiMD-formatted MD80 than you can LP2 tracks on an MDLP mode disc, with much higher quality.

2. Can Hi-MD units be hacked for a compression rate somewhere between Hi-LP and Hi-SP?

No.

3. What are your opinions on the the sound qualiy of the Hi-MD compression rates? A friend of mine (with an NH1) questions my sanity for my dissatisfaction with Hi-LP.

My opinion of the ATRAC/3/plus rates, in order of preference:

1. PCM, for obvious reasons [i rarely use it, though, for portable listening]

2. ATRAC SP, which has no support via USB

3. HiSP, which I use extensively and have no real qualms with the quality of [at least with 1st-gen compressed material]

4. LP2, which is okay for some things, but I generally consider SS and SB's LP2 encoding to be absolute crap

5. HiLP 64kbps, which is fine for voice recordings but I wouldn't use for anything else. It's simply not good enough for my ears and taste.

Your mileage may vary. Many people are actually happy using HiLP, though I can't actually understand how.

[Susie h]

To be honest, I use Hi-LP a bit. I have most of my music on a few 1GB discs and take them away with me etc when I want my whole collection. I don't mind the loss in quality in these circumstances as I'm just listening on my portable and its ok, not great, but ok.

Day to day at home though, I use HI-SP as of course it sounds better. 1GB discs are not as expensive or hard to come by in the UK as they were so I don't have a problem with the way I do it at the mo.

[The Low Volta]

Volta, what's this FLAC you're talking about?

just check corien's link (it explains FLAC and offers the downloads you need)...

And can it be used for archiving vinyl? I just figured that MD would be the easiest way to archive vinyl... No?

just a little clarification...

1. every format CAN be used for archiving, but all depends on your needs for quality! if you don't care about quality, use 64kbps MP3 or Hi-LP as it takes up less space, but it won't sound like music anymore probably

- wav/PCM are 'the best', as it doesn't compress anything and won't diminish sound quality, but they take up alot of space

- FLAC is 'even better', as it is a lossless compression (which means no quality loss but less space required) but there are (to my knowedge) no recorders (and perhaps even no PC-software) that can record directly into the FLAC-format so first record in wav/PCM (best quality) then encode as FLAC

2. is MD the best to archive vinyl (part I: recording)

as you should record your vinyls to wav/PCM, you should use the option that gives the best quality (but I don't really know much about this, I never archived any vinyl):

- Hi-MD in PCM -> would be good I guess, but you have to upload

- directly in wav on PC (audacity or something)-> all depends on the quality of your the audio-equipment of your PC (soundcard,...)

3. is MD the best to archive vinyl (part II: storing)

- MD (and probably Hi-MD too) is a durable but sometimes expensive medium... you could use it to archive, but then I would drop FLAC files on them as data (doesn't require SS and allows the FLAC quality@less space bonus) and not as playable music (no FLAC-support!)

- CDR and DVDR are very cheap nowadays, I would say, just burn all your FLACS to CDR/DVDR, store them well (as real archive material) and copy them once every (help me out here DEX?) five-2-fifteen years (at least before the media starts to degrade)

that is at least my idea... greetings, Volta

PS:

Depends on what unit you have --on 1st gen units you need to set Disc Mode (in the Menu) to MD mode (default is HI-MD) then SS will give you the SP/LP2/LP4 options.

you can't set a 1gb disc to MD-mode (only normal discs) but Hi-MD discs (1gb and reformatted old ones) will take atrac3@132kbps and other rates...just check your player's user manual: page 101 'recording times for all formats/discs' or something in my NH900's manual...pages added in attachment)

[attachmentid=397]

Edited June 24, 2005 by The Low Volta

[1kyle]

just check corien's link (it explains FLAC and offers the downloads you need)...

you can't set a 1gb disc to MD-mode (only normal discs) but Hi-MD discs (1gb and reformatted old ones) will take atrac3@132kbps and other rates...just check your player's user manual: page 101 'recording times for all formats/discs' or something in my NH900's manual...pages added in attachment)

[attachmentid=397]

←

Sorry I meant ONLY if you've got 60/74/80 min disks in the unit.

In this case at least on the NH1 if the disks are NEW it will default to HI-MD mode --you have to set the player to MD mode (for SS taransfer in SP/LP2/LP4).

If the disks have already been used then it should sense MD mode.

Sorry for the confusion.

Flac lossless compression seems fine also (although extra steps in your workflow when you need to make your music 'Playable' ) but probably good for archiving.

I keep 99% of my stuff in ATRAC3+ @ 256kbs --as I haven't got anything to play the music on that I'd notice an improvement over HI-SP on anything else .

Lp2 also doesn't actually sound too bad if the original source was recorded properly in the first place.

I agree calling MP3 and Music in the same sentence is a bit of a misnomer.

Why does the cruddiest stuff always seem to get to be the most popular

Betamax Vs VHS

OS/2 Vs Windows

MP3 vs any other format you could name.

Cheers

-K

Edited June 24, 2005 by 1kyle

[dex Otaku]

Flac lossless compression seems fine also (although extra steps in your workflow when you need to make your music 'Playable' ) but probably good for archiving.

I use FLAC on a daily basis. I use it so often, in fact, that I have made a "droplet" on my desktop for the encoder with my preferred settings [which I find more convenient than using a frontend].

And yes, I *listen* to FLAC files on a daily basis, not just use it for archival.

Try out Foobar2000 .. I use it for MP3, WAV, FLAC, APE, MPC, OGG, AC3, and DTS, all on a regular basis. [Daily for all but MPC, OGG, and AC3, which I use less often than any of the others.]

The only disadvantage I find with lossless-packed formats [like Monkey's Audio/APE, FLAC, and Shorten] is that they have the be converted back to PCM for editing.

[corien]

I too actually listen to FLACs on a daily basis, and don't use FLAC only for storing purposes. For listening I use WinAmp with its FLAC plugin - for encoding I use dBPowerAmp with its FLAC codec.

FLAC format is peculiar in adopting an asymmetric encode-decode algorithm, so that decoding and rendering into a WAV file is superfast. The price to pay is that the encoding process is quite time consuming.

[The Low Volta]

In this case at least on the NH1 if the disks are NEW it will default to HI-MD mode --you have to set the player to MD mode (for SS taransfer in SP/LP2/LP4).

I'm sorry 1kyle, but you're wrong. Please read the pages I uploaded from the user manual: through SS you can use LP2/LP4 (but not called that, just Atrac3/132kbps and Atrac3/66kbps) on Hi-MD formatted discs (1gb and reformatted or new 80min's)... Only SP is limited to MD-mode.

I agree calling MP3 and Music in the same sentence is a bit of a misnomer

haha, I was actually mainly referring to the rediculously low bitrate one could use if one doesn't care about quality... I wouldn't dare stirring up the MP3><atrac-discussion again so I edited the above statement (added "or Hi-LP")

I too actually listen to FLACs on a daily basis

My remark was only concerning Hi-MD...I didn't mean that FLAC is for storage only and you can't listen directly to FLAC-encoded files (I use winamp as well)... I just meant that if you put a FLAC-file on (Hi-)MD, it will only be possible as data and not as a portably playable soundfile

so just to be clear:

- for recording I use Hi-SP & PCM

- for portable listening I use Hi-SP

- for PC listening I use FLAC

- for storage & archiving I use FLAC (written on CDR's)

greetings, Volta

[valurot]

Thank you all for your input, advice, insights, etc... I'm thinking of the following process for vinyl archival:

1. Vinyl --> Hi-MD @ PCM

2. PCM --> wav

3. wav --> FLAC

4. FLAC --> CD-R

I've got to go read up on FLAC now. Thanks again!

[Ishiyoshi]

Thank you all for your input, advice, insights, etc... I'm thinking of the following process for vinyl archival:

1. Vinyl --> Hi-MD @ PCM

2. PCM --> wav

3. wav --> FLAC

4. FLAC --> CD-R

I've got to go read up on FLAC now. Thanks again!

←

That's brilliant. I archive my vinyl collection digitally as well - Vinyl to WAV format via SonicStage Mastering Studio. Please let us know how it goes with your project.

[Breepee2]

That's brilliant. I archive my vinyl collection digitally as well - Vinyl to WAV format via SonicStage Mastering Studio. Please let us know how it goes with your project.

←

I hope you don't store it in wav?

I also store my archive in FLAC, would be a wonderful world if I could play it back from MD too

[1kyle]

That's brilliant. I archive my vinyl collection digitally as well - Vinyl to WAV format via SonicStage Mastering Studio. Please let us know how it goes with your project.

←

Why not

1) Vinyl ===> WAV direct using Total Recorder / other recording program

2) WAV====> FLAC

3) FLAC ====>CD-R

Simultaneously Import the WAV music file into your Library with SS ATRAC3+ @ 256kbs

(Doing this simultaneously will speed up your Workflow).

Upload to MD from the library via SS so you've got your vinyl on MD.

After you've processed the original WAV just delete it to recover your disk space.

Your Vinyl record is unlikely to be as much as a CD (approx 800MB WAV file for a 70 min CD recorded at 44,100 16 bit)

Cheers

-K

Edited June 24, 2005 by 1kyle

[valurot]

Hmm... I'll think on that. Thanks!

[The Low Volta]

Why not

1) Vinyl ===> WAV direct using Total Recorder / other recording program

2) WAV====> FLAC

3) FLAC ====>CD-R

yes that definitely is an option (and even a faster one), but it all depends on what soundcard (quality) and input-options your PC has (if it is a mic-in or line-in, ...)

if you're not sure about the quality and sorts of your setup, just record one demanding test-track in both ways (Hi-MD->PC and PC directly) and compare the sound quality afterwards...

Simultaneously Import the WAV music file into your Library with SS  ATRAC3+ @ 256kbs (Doing this simultaneously will speed up your Workflow).

but not really simultaneously I would say because letting SS work simultaneously with any other program at all increases the chance that SS (a processor-hungry dragon of a program) will make mistakes in converting or freeze your PC (in which case it would ruin two processes)...

so just take it one step at a time:

save as wav-> encode to flac -> archive (on CDR) -> import wav as Hi-SP into SS. library -> delete wav

Volta

[Ishiyoshi]

I hope you don't store it in wav?

I also store my archive in FLAC, would be a wonderful world if I could play it back from MD too

←

Heh... our very own #1 FLAC fanboy. Sorry to disappoint you, but I do store them in WAV format. I have no immediate need to adopt FLAC as yet; in addition, HDD is so affordable nowadays.

Alright... back to the topic.

[MDGB2]

Comparisons between a £17 Fuji MP3 player & Hi-MD (Hi-LP) NH700 (European). "Unique" EQ setting. Cheap in-ear headphones (£5 Maplins)

Native mp3 file on Fuji, mp3 burned to CD (WAV) and transfered to Hi-MD.

Test environment - office (background noise - computers etc)

Hi-LP sounds 'lighter' on treble than the mp3 although bass is deeper. Percussions are particularly more noticable.

Vocals and sounds such as crowds clapping sound 'muffled' compared to mp3.

Artifacting can sometimes be more obvious with Hi-LP. However there is a greater sense of sound stage. There are some aspects of the music that I can hear in Hi-LP, but can't on the mp3.

Mp3 sounds clear, but somewhat lifeless. Hi-LP has a much 'warmer' sound.

In conclusion, I wouldn't recommed either for 'serious' listening, however for music to play in the office at work, or jogging etc. Hi-LP comes very close to mp3.

Then theres the benefit of the HUGE amount of storage available on a Hi-LP recorded MD than a fixed memory mp3. So Hi-LP marginally wins.

Still not anywhere near LP2 though.

Cheers.

[dex Otaku]

Thank you all for your input, advice, insights, etc... I'm thinking of the following process for vinyl archival:

1. Vinyl --> Hi-MD @ PCM

2. PCM --> wav

3. wav --> FLAC

4. FLAC --> CD-R

I've got to go read up on FLAC now. Thanks again!

←

When copying my vinyl I go straight to the computer in 24/88.2. I have yet to use my HiMD [after nearly a year] for copying -any- audio from an analogue line source for other than test purposes. I always do it on the puter, then send it to HiMD. I prefer to edit in the highest resolution format I have available.

My FLACdrop also uses the --lax option to encode 24-bit audio; the end result is that you can usually get roughly an entire CD's length of 24-bit audio onto a single CD-R [though I use DVD-R for almost everything now].

[The Low Volta]

When copying my vinyl I go straight to the computer in 24/88.2. I prefer to edit in the highest resolution format I have available. 

that seems logical to do, but your PC audio setup is probably of high enough quality to make clean/clear recordings... I wouldn't even try that with my shoddy portable

Volta

PS: @ MDGB2... interesting test, but what is it doing here?

[MDGB2]

PS: @ MDGB2... interesting test, but what is it doing here? 

←

The original topic post about the quality of Hi-LP Vs other compression rates.

Edited June 25, 2005 by MDGB2

[Breepee2]

Heh... our very own #1 FLAC fanboy. Sorry to disappoint you, but I do store them in WAV format. I have no immediate need to adopt FLAC as yet; in addition, HDD is so affordable nowadays.

One of the main advantages of FLAC over wav is not only the saved discs space, but also the native support for tags. I couldn't live without tags to maintain a transparent music backup database.

[The Low Volta]

The original topic post about the quality of Hi-LP Vs other compression rates.

ehm..."Hi-SP vs. Hi-LP" as in the title yes and other atrac versions/bitrates also 'cause of the question for something between Hi-SP and Hi-LP and comparison to LP2...but I never saw anyone (especially not the topic-starter) mention MP3 before... therefore my surprise when your test popped up without any explanation

Volta

[MDGB2]

ehm..."Hi-SP vs. Hi-LP" as in the title yes and other atrac versions/bitrates also 'cause of the question for something between Hi-SP and Hi-LP and comparison to LP2...but I never saw anyone (especially not the topic-starter) mention MP3 before... therefore my surprise when your test popped up without any explanation

Volta

←

Ah, I see what you mean. Sorry for going a bit off topic.

Althouth my test did establish that Hi-LP is pants compared to LP2....

[genghisbunny]

Ah, I see what you mean.  Sorry for going a bit off topic. 

Althouth my test did establish that Hi-LP is pants compared to LP2....

←

Isn't Hi-LP "meant" to be "pants" compared to lp2?

Isn't the compression rate much closer to lp4, and hi-sp more like lp2 (in size and quality?)

Sorry, I never owned an MDLP unit - Jumped straight from an SP unit to my beloved RH10, so I'm going from data on documentation and impressions from software rather than years of experience with MDLP like a lot of the guys here

Genghisbunny

[Sparky191]

Personally I never liked LP2 that much. For some albums it was ok, older rock stuff. But I notice artifacts in a lot of my favorite albums though. SP was noticeably superior to my ears so that I usually used SP. I've only had a HiMD a little while, but I find HiSP sufficent for portable use. In a direct comparision yes PCM is better, but you'd need decent earphones and a quiet enviroment to really notice it. For me HiSP is fine my music sounds good in HiSP. But I didn't like anything I encoded in HiLP. That said I intend using the HiMD primarly for recording. Though I do find myself using it as a portable when my Mp3 player is out of charge.

[genghisbunny]

Personally I never liked LP2 that much.

←

Thanks for the info Sparky. I think I'm glad I skipped the MDLP generation and the NetMD generation as people seem to bitch about them endlessly.

Then again, people love to bitch.

[Sparky191]

Thanks for the info Sparky.  I think I'm glad I skipped the MDLP generation and the NetMD generation as people seem to bitch about them endlessly.

Then again, people love to bitch.

←

The only reason I used LP2 was to put a double album on a MD. While NetMD & SS would have been a lot handier way of putting music on a MD, CD>>Optical>>SP sounded so good I didn't see the point of using LP2. For me SS>>HiSP sounds as good and the advantages and capacity of SS & HiSP are worth any minor difference between it and SP. Though if I had leagacy deck or car unit, I'd probably still be using SP aswell.

[imzu]

To be honest, I use Hi-LP a bit.  I have most of my music on a few 1GB discs and take them away with me etc when I want my whole collection.  I don't mind the loss in quality in these circumstances as I'm just listening on my portable and its ok, not great, but ok.

Day to day at home though, I use HI-SP as of course it sounds better.  1GB discs are not as expensive or hard to come by in the UK as they were so I don't have a problem with the way I do it at the mo.

←

IMO 1Gb are ideal for collections of podcasts. I like building compendiums, so I have started a 1Gb disc of stuff from itconversations.com. I convert mp3's in "speech" quality of 64kbps to Hi-LP and they sound fine even though they are transcoded.

LP2 - I have to say that LP2 sounds excellent when the source is CD. I used LP2 heavily to transcode from mp3 128~192~256kbps (mainly tracks from ocremix.org) and found the quality for portable/car to be adequate. Now that I've got my 2nd Gen Hi-MD though, I feel like remastering all my old discs with the original mp3!

[Deanage]

I agree calling MP3 and Music in the same sentence is a bit of a misnomer.

Ha ha ha. MP3 distortion would be a more accurate description.

Betamax Vs VHS

OS/2 Vs Windows

MP3 vs any other format you could name.

What about Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD? That could be a good battle... What do you mean no-one cares?!