Comparing Sound quality RH10 Hi-SP @ 256 with MP3 on mobile phone

[1kyle]

Been conducting some (largely unscientific) tests comparing play back quality of an RH10 to that of a mobile Phone (Sony Ericcson W900i).

I think we've all agreed the current MP3 playback on the MD unit is flawed so I'm using HI-SP on the RH10 and MP3 on the mobile phone.

There's still argument as to whether the MP3 problem is due to SS's algorithm or the hardware in the MD. Playing MP3's directly in SS leads me to conclude that the problem is definitely in SS. I can't say whether the problem exists in the hardware as well as you have to use SS for transferring the file. SB won't transfer MP3 files.

Note I'm not suggesting one device over the other, just strictly comparing quality for Music being played "on the move".

I'm not using the standard supplied software for the phone to rip a CD direct to MP3 as the choices of bit rate is limited and I've no idea what sampling frequencies it uses.

I'm coding the MP3 using LAME XP (free) which has a whole slew of choices up to 320 kbs and sampling up to 48K. Drag 'n Drop for MP3 works fine for the phone -- you need to add the tag for the album / artist but is easily done from the software as shown.

(The track names are fine as these come from CDDB / FREEDB when you either rip the CD to WAV or use SS to save the ATRAC3 lossless tracks in WAV format).

Here's the Album Tag

http://www.1kyle.com/lame1.jpg

I've got a reasonably fast computer but even on this machine the mp3 file I get (at the same sampling rates and kbs rate) seem to be MUCH better if I rip first to WAV and then convert using something like Lame XP (if I'm on Windows).

The direct rip (CD===>MP3) sometimes introduces odd clicks etc. I've tried a few different encoders as well. The problem might be with the CD drives rather than the computer but extracting to WAV first and then converting to MP3 eliminates this problem.

Rip CD===>WAV then convert to MP3 as stated seems to be better. ATRAC3 Lossless to WAV first is also OK (saves re-ripping CD). Then from the WAV create your MP3 files. You can delete the WAV files afterwards to conserve space on your disks.

Tried these (VBR) 128, 192, 216, 256, 320 @ sampling 48 and 44.1.

(The software interestingly recommends using 192 but defaults to 128).

Since CD's are sampled at 44.1 I don't think there's any point in using the 48 sampling frequency.

128 - Forget it. Definitely inferior. It seems amazing to me that this tends to be the default bit rate that "music Downloads" seem to be offered at. For MP3 definitely a poor choice even when sampled at 44.1

192 would be FINE for all portable listening. 216 seems a funny bit rate but it's available on LAME XP.

216 - I didn't bother as it seems a "Hybrid" compression that doesn't save much when compared with the better 256. Maybe someone can come up with a use for this bit rate.

256 compares favorably with HI-SP @ 256 when using an RH10 on the move

320 kbs seems identical to all intents and purposes as HI-SP @ 352 although played back through a high end piece of audio gear the MD unit was better.

Since a Mobile Phone is hardly classed as a "High Fidelity" unit I would suggest that MP3 rips at 192 sampled at 44.1 will hold up very well against your Hi-SP unit especially when using anything less than stellar headphones.

256 is great for using really nice cans like expensive Senn's, Bose etc but you then have to decide quality vs quantity. 192 will suffice for most people if the original encoding is done properly.

320 probably overkill on a mobile phone especially if you don't install a 2GB card and are not using top end cans.

One thing that can't be stressed enough is how BAD cheap headphones really are. That's probably how the download stores get away with such compressed music is that most people are listening on horrible phones where even the highest quality music is made to sound like somthing between a pair of Road Drills and a large Jumbo jet taking off.

Cheers

-K

Edited April 13, 2006 by 1kyle

[Richard]

Been conducting some (largely unscientific) tests comparing play back quality of an RH10 to that of a mobile Phone (Sony Ericcson W900i).

There's still argument as to whether the MP3 problem is due to SS's algorithm or the hardware in the MD. Playing MP3's directly in SS leads me to conclude that the problem is definitely in SS. I can't say whether the problem exists in the hardware as well as you have to use SS for transferring the file. SB won't transfer MP3 files.

-K

All I can say is when I tested the RH1 I used MP3 discs that were created with a prior version of SS and sent to the DH10P. When these same discs were played back on the RH1 they sounded considerably better.

This would lead me to say the issue is (was) a hardware one.

[MDfreak]

...

There's still argument as to whether the MP3 problem is due to SS's algorithm or the hardware in the MD. Playing MP3's directly in SS leads me to conclude that the problem is definitely in SS. I can't say whether the problem exists in the hardware as well as you have to use SS for transferring the file. SB won't transfer MP3 files

....

I don't know why you think the mp3-playback-problem with the RH10 has something to do with SonicStage because the only thing SonicStage does is copying the mp3's to an MD.

Furthermore the MZ-RH1 I'm currently testing has flawless mp3-playback (as compared with the RH10). So it is defenately NO SonicStage issue but a problem with the units that playback the mp3's.

Edited April 13, 2006 by MDfreak

[1kyle]

I don't know why you think the mp3-playback-problem with the RH10 has something to do with SonicStage because the only thing SonicStage does is copying the mp3's to an MD.

Furthermore the MZ-RH1 I'm currently testing has flawless mp3-playback (as compared with the RH10). So it is defenately NO SonicStage issue but a problem with the units that playback the mp3's.

Glad to hear the RH1 will play MP3's properly.

You CAN use SS to play MP3's without transferring to MD.

Use Windows explorer to browse to the MP£ track(file) you want to play and then RIGHT Mouse click (assuming the default R.Handed mouse options).

Then chose Open With and then browse to OMGJBOX.EXE

You track will then start playing using SS.

BTW where did you get your RH1 from - was it a "Pre production" unit or is it a "final" to be released version.

Cheers

-K

Edited April 14, 2006 by 1kyle

[AVITWeb]

I'm sorrry if this is repetive, or if I missed it, but what exactly is the problem with mp3 playback on the rh10s?

[FezzFest]

The high frequencies are capped with mp3playback on 2nd generation Hi-MDs

[AVITWeb]

How far? I mean isn't that what ATRAC does anyway?? (gets rid of the frequencies we can't hear?) Is it really that bad?

[FezzFest]

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=10621

Scroll down to "MP3 playback test."

eriktous is correct in that this is old news [it was known within a week of the release of HiMD's 2nd generation last year] but that graph at least shows exactly what it's doing.

For me it's bad enough for not using the mp3playback on my RH710

Edited April 16, 2006 by FezzFest

[greenmachine]

It's not just filtering frequencies in the inaudible range (>~16-18khz), but also lowering high frequencies in the audible range. It can be roughly corrected via EQ though.