recordings to HI-MD vs. to irivers?

[greenmachine]

You can can listen to your recordings right on the unit, no matter what format you've recorded in, even PCM/WAV. HiMD doesn't support direct WMA playback, but Sonicstage will transcode it to a compatible format if necessary.

Upload via USB using Sonicstage should work flawlessly, for a guide how to proceed with the uploaded files, see this thread.

[Sparky191]

I reckon the HIMD is a more pocketable solution with a better ADC and DAC, with some usability issues. The iRiver needs the analog/optical line in and outboard ADC/DAC to achieve similar results. That would be the main difference (for me). For others depending on their usage, other issues might be more significant.

[kuuan]

WARNING: don't read this post if you are interested in facts, this is rather private talk.

just bought the first step to better recording today:

an AT822, now doing my first tests recording to the iFP-799

In the shop I bought the mic they sell the edirol R-09 for less than 300 USD...cheaper than the RH1...a 1GB SD card costs 30 USD there.

One more contender, another 'vs' thread?

I know which one e1ghtyf1ve would prefer..

to tell you the truth at times I think I should get an HiMD simply because all of you here really made your point and I believe that my original question has been answered: The HiMDs will record in superior quality!

...but then think of me, travelling for months, living out of my suitcase but carrying my videoequipment, on the iriver I could record days, weeks , months, all into this one harddisc before needing a PC to upload, not having to carry a stack of MDs...

and why not: what is your opinion of the edirol R-09?

Edited July 3, 2006 by kuuan

[Sparky191]

...Any HiMD recorder will blow away any iRiver - be it flash based or HD - when it comes to sound quality....

Based on his usual highly technical reasoning, HiMD because it blows

[A440]

The Edirol R09 might indeed be your solution. Most users seem to like nearly everything about it except the built-in mics and a mic preamp (for external mics) that is noisier than the one with MD.

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2006/01/27/n...e-usb-recorder/

External mics via Line-in--with a battery module (you'd have to try it and see) or a preamp--would bypass that problem.

Read through the reviews, and you'll also see that some of the people wish they had the editing capability of MD units.

But yes, there are imperfections with MD too.

All MD units make mechanical noise periodically spinning the disc--a mic has to be separated from them. That's probably similar to the HDD noise of the Irivers. But the initial problem with the Irivers was additional electronic noises: the buffer/click problem that has been lately fixed, and the ticking sound they say you get if the remote is plugged in.

As for AC, minidisc has a problem when recording with a mic using AC power: It adds a buzz. Most of us use them for portable recording, which is what it seemed you were planning to do. Are you going to be recording in a situation where AC power is always available? Then the fact that the Iriver has to be recharged regularly won't be a problem.

It does seem that drag-and-drop is extremely important for you, and carrying around a stack of minidiscs would seriously increase your cost (20GB would be $140 list). At the price you saw, perhaps you should get the Edirol R09--if you don't like it, you could sell it for a profit on Ebay.

[kuuan]

I hope this is not asking to be repetitive, but may I ask you, A440, why would you disqualify the iriver?

Even though the HiMD might do better quality, it seems that many experienced tapers using much better mics etc. are happy with it, therefore it should do more than fine for me, a beginner. It would be my cheapest option and maybe my most practical? - still liking those min. 20 GB on board.

[dogville]

I hope this is not asking to be repetitive, but may I ask you, A440, why would you disqualify the iriver?

Even though the HiMD might do better quality, it seems that many experienced tapers using much better mics etc. are happy with it, therefore it should do more than fine for me, a beginner. It would be my cheapest option and maybe my most practical? - still liking those min. 20 GB on board.

I don't understand why some people who don't like something, usually try to disqualify what others like because they don't like it . I think i-river and cowon products are very good gadgets but hi-md is far superior, in my opinion. Nevertheless disqualifications in this case have no sense. It demonstrates a stupid way of criticism and an absolute lack of intelligence.

Edited July 3, 2006 by dogville

[kuuan]

'disqualify' was just my stupid choice of word, sorry - english is not my mothertongue -

[dogville]

'disqualify' was just my stupid choice of word, sorry - english is not my mothertongue -

I think it is a perfect word to describe it.

[A440]

You've changed the question, Kuaan, from what's the best recorder to what will make you happy.

You probably would be happy with the H120, and that's great. Whatever serves your purposes best is the gadget you should have. Different tools for different jobs. You don't need a Ferrari to drive to the grocery store. Drag-and-drop seems essential to you, particularly since you won't have your own PC at hand, and that's a thoroughly sensible reason not to get MD.

You said at the beginning you were recording audio for videos. If I were making a video documentary, I would want to get high-quality sound. and I'd make room in my luggage for a stack of MDs. But if it's more as a souvenir of a trip, then it may not need that extra margin of fidelity.

I mostly use Hi-MD to stealthily record concerts. It's very good for my purposes, not perfect. (And I long for a unit the size of the H120 that was designed specifically for high-quality recording.) You're going to be using your recorder to make recordings while traveling. The H120 might well serve you better.

Sound quality is a funny thing. Most people listen to music through awful little earbuds and are perfectly satisfied. People also make concert recordings through mediocre microphones--like those Giant Squid samples I linked to--and think they sound great because they were there and their memory fills in the rest. I hear a lot of live music, so I'm more picky about what sounds realistic.

My doubts about the Iriver are the ones I mentioned.

When people who know and like the H120 say that, well, its audio quality is not so great, I would tend to listen to them.

When people say they are using an external analog-to-digital converter with the H120 to get decent sound, then I'm personally not interested in the H120 because for me, the recorder itself should be the ADC.

I immediately disqualified the H120 when it was released because of the well-documented clicking sounds during the recording. Now that those sounds have been eliminated it's a closer call. But the Iriver people are still saying that its audio quality isn't great. So it's still not for me. But it obviously does record and holds a lot of recordings, so it should do your job.

As I said before, track down some recordings--preferably where you can see exactly what equipment was used--and see what you think of them. If they sound good enough, and they probably will, then that's your toy.

[kuuan]

thank you once again A440 for your thorrow analysis.

Just as you are right about my question having changed, I believe that you are right with your asessment of the various recorders.

I first learned that the HiMD should be the better recorder. Later I learned about the option of external preamps, even ACDs - which of course I'd rather avoid if the recorder itself is good enough.

Than tried to find out which recorder would fit my purpose best.

This I am not decided yet:

As I had mentioned earlier often I will be recording ambience, e.g. birds singing in an otherwise quiet environment. Would you say that my AT822 directly plugged into an HiMD, the RH10 in particular, or into a R-9 would do that without adding disturbing noise?

Or would I need for an external preamp, maybe a ext. preamp+ADC for that anyway?

Edited July 8, 2006 by kuuan

[greenmachine]

You might be interested in this thread, in which we talked about preamp quality:

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=10744

[kuuan]

thank you very much, greenmachine, for this interesting link.

The findings there, if I understand correctly, say that the built in preamp of the HiMDs is much better/less noisy than even A440 and many others originally believed. Very good news indeed!

However I must admit that much talk there ...db, caracteristics of various mics. etc. is beyond my understanding:

Is it that the use of batterie boxes made the recordings less noisy? - Surprisng and confusing for me, as I thought to have learned in various forums lately that bettery boxes for mics are specially required if recording loud sound?

To avoid noise for 'quiet ambience' recordings the right choice of mic also seemed very important.

Do you know how quiet/noisy the AT822 would be? ( from specs you can see here: http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mi...5bdf92967733dc/ or experience? )

I just very recently bought one, it uses an AA batterie and connot be used with higher voltage - as I thought I will not need and use phantom power - did I make a wrong choice then?

so: would my AT822 plugged directly into an HiMD be a good solution, of should the use of a battery box lessen the noise?

Or would the use of another mic be more favourable?

Edited July 8, 2006 by kuuan

[greenmachine]

The higher voltage of a battery box would in theory improve the signal to noise and high sound pressure level handling of a non-self powered electret mic. Practically speaking, the difference would be marginal, if audible at all. The real purpose of it is to enable line-in recording for undistorted (no preamp overload) recordings at high SPLs.

If your particular mic is to be powered by an internal battery only and external powering shouldn't be used, a battery box would be useless anyway. I don't have experience with this mic, but the fixed XY-mounting of cardioids might limit your creativity in the long run. The S/N ratio seems somewhat higher than what you can expect from miniature mics though.

[kuuan]

so what did I get in the end?

I did buy an iRiver H120, installed Rockbox and built my own mic preamp which has a switch to turn on/off 9 Volt plug in power.

I am VERY happy with this combination.

From what you and others told me I do believe that the HiMDs have better inbuilt A/D and preamp than the iRiver. However I do have use for an mp3 player anyway, and the 20 GB storage, drag and drop facility of the iRiver are very convenient for my use.

From what I found out it is mostly the inbuilt preamp the iRiver which is the weakest link and the A/D is not that bad. Therefore the quality of the recordings with my DIY preamp is very good indeed. The material for the preamp cost me about 5 USD.

if anybody is interested, here the link with the circuit of the preamp:

http://sound.westhost.com/project13.htm

I made the figure 2 modified version powered with 12 Volt, but it works fine with a 9 Volt battery. Of course I made two circuits to have stereo, and I simply terminated it with two stereo mini females, one for Mic-in, one for 'out', one power switch, one switch to turn on/off mic in power supply, one pot for gain control and fit it into a box half the size of the player. It really is VERY noise free ( with my AT822, with the Giant Squids there is some noise, must come from the mics, SP-CMC4s are coming )

If anybody wants to know I also can explain you how I made it function as a battery box - 9 Volt plug in power device.

[greenmachine]

Nice, i've once built the 30V version of that preamp before the 12V version appeared. I've used three 9V batteries for the preamp itself and an additional 9V batt for plug in power. It worked quite well but was not really portable. How did you get it to work with just a single batt for both preamp and plug in power?

[kuuan]

Nice, i've once built the 30V version of that preamp before the 12V version appeared. I've used three 9V batteries for the preamp itself and an additional 9V batt for plug in power. It worked quite well but was not really portable. How did you get it to work with just a single batt for both preamp and plug in power?

The 12 Volt version works well with 9 Volts though I I believe changing some resistor values would optimize it for 9 Volts, but I don't know how to calculate them.

I made point to point soldering and fit it into a small box, it is very small and portable. I chose to have the 9 Volt battery 'external', total volume still is smaller than the player itself.

To add the plug-in-power I followed this: http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e190/kuuan/pluginpower.jpg schematics. It shows one channel of a ballanced Mic. To adapt it to unballenced Mic you simply leave out the Pin 3, and of course repeat the same thing for the 2nd channel.

Since my AT822 does not want plug in power, but my Giant Squids and coming SP-CMC4s do I added a switch to turn it off and on. The switch got 6 Pins, 3 Pins for each channel to switch the 2 channels separately. On one position the input is wired directly as shown at the P13 figure 2 schematics, on the other position the plug-in power wiring as shown at the photobucket file I linked here is added before entering the circuit. It works!

If it is not clear please ask again and I will try to clarify.

It works fine, but I am not sure if the values of the resistors and caps are ideal.

I asked

• this question,
• how to change restistor values to optimize it for 9 Volts,
• and if the solution I found for the wiring of the gain selector pot was acceptable, - it is working but the wiring as shown at the circuit did not

and other questions using my name kuuan here:

http://sound.westhost.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1086 and question about a mic mixer I'd like to build at the same forum here: http://sound.westhost.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1163

but have not received any answers yet.

Edited September 12, 2006 by kuuan

[alrose312]

Curious to know where you got your H120. I'm not interested, but I remember when I had one about a year ago they were extremely hard to find and expensive. I sold my damaged H120 with a cracked display on eBay for $200.

so what did I get in the end?

I did buy an iRiver H120, installed Rockbox and built my own mic preamp which has a switch to turn on/off 9 Volt plug in power.

I am VERY happy with this combination.

From what you and others told me I do believe that the HiMDs have better inbuilt A/D and preamp than the iRiver. However I do have use for an mp3 player anyway, and the 20 GB storage, drag and drop facility of the iRiver are very convenient for my use.

From what I found out it is mostly the inbuilt preamp the iRiver which is the weakest link and the A/D is not that bad. Therefore the quality of the recordings with my DIY preamp is very good indeed. The material for the preamp cost me about 5 USD.

if anybody is interested, here the link with the circuit of the preamp:

http://sound.westhost.com/project13.htm

I made the figure 2 modified version powered with 12 Volt, but it works fine with a 9 Volt battery. Of course I made two circuits to have stereo, and I simply terminated it with two stereo mini females, one for Mic-in, one for 'out', one power switch, one switch to turn on/off mic in power supply, one pot for gain control and fit it into a box half the size of the player. It really is VERY noise free ( with my AT822, with the Giant Squids there is some noise, must come from the mics, SP-CMC4s are coming )

If anybody wants to know I also can explain you how I made it function as a battery box - 9 Volt plug in power device.

[kuuan]

Curious to know where you got your H120.

I bought it used from yahoo auction in Japan ( biggest online auction there, not ebay ), while I was in Japan.

Supposedly recently they are easy to be found online, but some report having had problems with them. Some say they might be refurbished, others even said they might be copies.

Some site from Australia has been offering H120/140 and H320340 via ebay recently.