Which mics do you you use and why?

[soul&folk]

I'd like to hear about what others are using for recording live with their minidiscs.

Please try to explain why you use the particular mic and in what situation. Have there been any surprises you've had using that mic? Thanks.

[Richard]

* Moved to Live Recording section

[A440]

For stealthy concert recording, I almost always use the Sound Professionals BMC-2 because they are small, mounted on thin wires and clear-sounding.

For less stealthy concert recording, I also have what are probably old Sound Professionals CMC-8 with binaural elements--you can unscrew the capsules and replace them with cardioid if you want. I bought them on Ebay so I can't guarantee their model number. Richer bass but bulkier, definitely more visible. They also have slighlty lower noise, which doesn't matter much for the loud music I record, and I think they are slightly more sensitive than the BMC-2, so you have to use slightly lower volume on Manual Volume. The low noise makes them good for podcasting.

I also have one each of the Sound Professionals budget single point binaural and cardioid mics that they were adding as a free bonus to orders of MD recorders. They are decent, nothing special, and sound nearly mono, but would be fine for recording lectures or non-broadcast interviews.

Another pair of mics I have is an old Church Audio binaural set, apparently using different elements from the ones Church Audio uses now. (www.church-audio.ca). A little bulkier than the Sound Professionals, and I had to rig my own clips, but they sound as good as the BMC-2s.

I'm experimenting now with a set of Microphone Madness FGSD-1 cardioid mics with premium Sennheiser capsules that I picked up on eBay at a low price. The gooseneck mount is useless when plugged in directly. It picks up vibration from a computer or a minidisc unit, and it doesn't stay upright because the plug rotates in the jack. However, connected to an extension cord and placed in a holder, they may prove useful. They sound good with voice, and have low noise. To use them at a concert, you would need a taper-friendly band--let's just say they are quite obvious.

I have a Microphone Madness cardioid MM-LAPEL-2 mono mic that I had hoped would be good for speech. It's very disappointing. Noisy and shallow sounding when clipped to a collar or lapel. The BMC-2s capture speech better.

Loud music-->Mic-->Mic-in is almost guaranteed to overload the built-in preamp in the MD unit and will be unlistenable.

With all mics for recording loud music, I use a Microphone Madness Classic Mini battery module and run through Line-in. On a budget, you could also use a $7 Radio Shack Headphone Volume Control (pictured as my avatar) turned up to maximum and run through Mic-in, but the battery module sounds better.

Look in the Gallery (link at upper right) for albums of minidisc recordings. I listed the mics I used, and so did many other people. There are plenty of alternatives. Also, look through this topic. Some people have posted their recordings here as well.

[Strungup]

I'd like to hear about what others are using for recording live with their minidiscs.

Please try to explain why you use the particular mic and in what situation. Have there been any surprises you've had using that mic? Thanks.

Audio Technica AT 822

Comes with a 1/8 TRS cable for connecting to MD ,DAT, Whatever....also it has a Low frequency rolloff that really takes the rumble out (very nice)

Sony mics have a little warmer sound but the "Air" or high frequency spaciousness is missing.

[soul&folk]

I've got a Nady CM-2s arriving today that I snatched up on ebay for $50. There's someone here who's name starts with "King" who had good things to say about it. So even though I was originally looking for a Sony ECM-MS907, I got this instead.

I'd like to have a second mic for while I'm driving and listening to the radio. I want to easily grab what I'm hearing (usually jazz or 70's rock) in as good quality as I can, and I'd like it to be something that's easy to set up.

Maybe something like this held on to the stick shift with a rubber band? Do you think it would pick up too much noise from the vibrations of the car? Do you think it will give me any sort of decent stereo image?

Edited March 7, 2007 by soul&folk

[A440]

Is your car really your best stereo? You'd get a much better recording via a direct line connection (headphone jack, amplifier out) from a home radio.

Do you hear the car when you have the stereo on? If you do, then the mic will too. And vibration through the stick shift will also probably come through the mics.

Stereo separation should be OK, because you can separate the mics as far as your ears.

You shouldn't plug it directly into the MD unit, despite the photo, because it will pick up the sound of the MD motor.

As I said, I'm very disappointed with the mics I have mounted on the same kind of gooseneck, because the mount transmits a lot of vibration. You'd want to separate the mics from the vibration of the car--preferably with a mic on a cord and placed on something soft, or in what's called a shock mount.

Also, I wouldn't want to be driving near you when you decide you have to record a song and start groping for the MD unit. Keep your eyes on the road, OK?

And one more thing: I've seen those micro-sound listings on Ebay through the years. I'd love to know if anyone has tried any of their mics, especially since the prices are so low.

Edited March 7, 2007 by A440

[soul&folk]

I realize I won't be getting perfect fidelity. Here's why I want to do this. I'm often driving in my car and hear a song that I want to remember or a part of a song or even part of some background music for an ad. I write songs and I collect ideas and this would help me a lot. Good fidelity would be great, because it would help me remember the feeling of what I heard, but not the main thing in this context.

As for watching the road, I'm actually typing this as I drive.... Just kidding!

I was considering getting a different stereo mic from the same people and clipping the mics to the headrest.

did you see this one or how about this one?

[King Ghidora]

I think you'll like the Nady. I know I like mine. Wish I could have bought one for $50 though. I paid $119 for mine.

FWIW they are built to mimic the AT822. They even look very similar. And I've heard comparisons between the two and the Nady stood up really well against the AT.

The Nady will pick up some echo if you have the sound level set too high. It needs to be set just right to record the sound at the highest level without picking up echo. In most places it isn't a problem anyway. But if you get in a place that has a lot of reflective surfaces you could get too much echo.

I still think it's an excellent mic especially for the price. And the price you paid makes it really a good deal. I do prefer mine over my Sony MS907 BTW.

[soul&folk]

The Nady will pick up some echo if you have the sound level set too high. It needs to be set just right to record the sound at the highest level without picking up echo. In most places it isn't a problem anyway. But if you get in a place that has a lot of reflective surfaces you could get too much echo.

Thanks. I'll keep that in mind.

While I'm on the topic of choosing mics, the youth group I'm working with is thinking of using my mz-n707 to do interviews with at our conventions and later put those sound clips into our radio show. Is there a not too expensive mic that would work well for this? Is the Nady mic I just got overkill? I mean who needs stereo for an interview?

[A440]

About attaching the mics to the headrests, or to any part of the car: You've got to isolate them from vibration somehow. Put your ear to the headrest with the car on (not while you're driving) and you'll hear what the mic will pick up. Maybe if you bunched something soft under them, or had the mics hanging free--rear view mirror?--you could cut down the vibration from the car. You'd have to experiment.

Unless you're worried about the kids mishandling the mic, there's nothing wrong with using a stereo mic for interviews--they'll only sound better. If you do use a mono mic, make sure it has a stereo plug (like your headphone plug). A mono plug will only send sound to the left channel. Seems like Micro Sound has a mono lapel mic that, if specs are trustworthy, will do the job.

The only way to get sound clips off the MZ-N707 is to record them out of the headphone jack in realtime. Unless you want to invest in the MZ-RH1 to upload them.

[soul&folk]

The only way to get sound clips off the MZ-N707 is to record them out of the headphone jack in realtime. Unless you want to invest in the MZ-RH1 to upload them.

Ah, but I also have a minidisc deck that has optical out. On another thread I mentioned that the youth group I work for has a weekly radio program. Each week they give us a copy of the program on minidisc. We bought a Sony MDS-JE500 and together with my Edirol UA-25 we've been able to send it to Audacity as a WAV file.

So now we've got the mobility of the mz-n707 and the advantages of the deck as well. I just have to remember to record in a format that the older model deck can play.

---Woo hoo!!! As I was writing, the mic arrived. I just tested it and I am already happy with it! Looking forward to sitting on my couch and trying it out on acoustic guitar and vocals!

Edited March 7, 2007 by soul&folk

[King Ghidora]

You really don't want to use most stereo mics for interviews. The weakness of most stereo mics is the center. You may get phase problems with an XY design mic like the Nady. Because sound arrives at the different mic elements at a different point in the curve you might get phase cancellation which would make anything in the center sound pretty bad. This doesn't always happen of course but it can cause a signficant problem.

The Sony ECM-MS907 has a M/S design which means it has an element in the center and an element on either side to pick up the stereo imaging information. It is far less prone to phase problems in the center. This mic is considered to be capable of providing a mono quality voice recording.

Mono is what you usually want for recording voice. You can get decent cheap mics for recording voice some of which will even work as handheld mics. The Nady is not going to work well as a handheld mic at all. It will pick up far too much handling noise. It is intended to be used in a mounted fashion.

That ATR55 is a decent cheap mic that some people say works as a handheld. The ATR25 might even be good enough for your purposes. If you don't mind using a lavalier mic the Giant Squid mics are excellent at recording voice. A omni lav mono Giant Squid mic only costs $30. I use one to mic my interview subjects for my video business all the time.

There's a world of different mics to choose from. Some mics work better in certain situations than others. The Nady is going to be great for recording music. You may get a decent voice recording with it and you may not largely depending on the room acoustics where you record. It's best to have a series of mics for various jobs if you can afford it. In the meantime I think you would find a GS omni lav to be an excellent way to record interviews if you don't mind clipping it to the person you are interviewing.

[A440]

You really don't want to use most stereo mics for interviews. The weakness of most stereo mics is the center. You may get phase problems with an XY design mic like the Nady.

Thanks for pointing out that center problem, KG. I didn't know that about the Nady.

I have used separated stereo pairs and cheap little one-point stereo mics for speech recording. I like the depth of stereo, but I know that the pros who do mixing of speech and music or ambient sound prefer mono for its clarity (never a phase problem) and flexibility.

With every mic and every room, you need to experiment with placement. You will hear very clear differences, guaranteed.

I often use my BMC-2 for speech recording by clipping them to the subject's shirt collar, each pointed toward the speaker's mouth, and that usually turns out well. (For concerts I point them outward or forward instead.) I have also used a basic clip-on lapel mic, which works fine. For recording my own speech, after much experimenting with mic placement, I found that the best results were with a pair of binaural mics both dangling off one side of my glasses next to my right cheek. It looks ridiculous while recording, but the sound is excellent.

Lately I tried my new gooseneck cardioids in various positions: pointed at the chin from below, directly at my mouth, up above pointing down toward my forehead, etc. The best position for them was with the mics pointed directly at my eyes a few inches in front of me--no P popping from the mouth, no exaggerated lows like below the chin, less room echo from pointing at forehead.

So do your own experiments with the Nady. And if it sounds odd, get a modest lapel mic.

[soul&folk]

Well wouldn't you know, I needed to drive for an hour tonight, getting someone from the airport. I set up the mz-n707 with the nady cm2s and turned on the radio. I had the earphones in my ear to monitor the mic positioning and actually held the mic the entire ride. I learned a lot in that hour and even more when I played it back.

You are very right that I will hear the engine revving up (never knew it was so loud until now) and any slight movement of the mic or even hands sliding along the steering wheel, is picked up. I'm sure that those issues will not go away - but then again, that's the way it should be - the mic picks up what it's hearing. I suppose when I drive, the mind filters out the car sounds. I suppose there's some sort of study that can prove that.

this is good information in general to think about when recording live sound. It may sound one way to the listener in the room, but the mics might just be hearing much more. I suppose that's where mic positioning and choosing the right mic matters. Some mics will likely pick up less of certain frequencies....

Well I didn't get to try recording the guitar and vocals tonight since I ended up driving to the airport, but I've certainly had my recording lesson for the day. There's no better way to learn than to jump in and experiment. Theories and discussion is great but first-hand knowledge is so much more.

The Nady is not going to work well as a handheld mic at all. It will pick up far too much handling noise. It is intended to be used in a mounted fashion.

That I determined right away.

That ATR55 is a decent cheap mic that some people say works as a handheld. The ATR25 might even be good enough for your purposes. In the meantime I think you would find a GS omni lav to be an excellent way to record interviews if you don't mind clipping it to the person you are interviewing.

A lapel mic won't work for this situations as the interview is going to be back and forth between the reporter and the people he's interviewing. Do you think the ms907 will also pick up a lot of noise while being handled?

What do you think about using the good old sm58 for the interviews? Could I use the cable use the cable from the nady stereo mic and attach it to the sm58? Will it only produce sound on the left channel? (I could live with that too, BTW)

Edited March 8, 2007 by soul&folk

[greenmachine]

I don't get the fuss about mono compatibility of stereo mics. If you know you want to record in mono, why not just point one of both channels towards the source and discard the other channel in post processing (instead of mixing them, which can lead to phase problems indeed)?

[soul&folk]

I don't get the fuss about mono compatibility of stereo mics. If you know you want to record in mono, why not just point one of both channels towards the source and discard the other channel in post processing (instead of mixing them, which can lead to phase problems indeed)?

That would certainly work, however since the exact direction of the mics is concealed by the mic's screen, it would be hard to keep it pointed evenly the whole time. Besides, I already discovered that the nady cm2s is very sensitive to handling and it would not be the right one for interviews for that reason alone.

So would an sm58 serve well for interviews? (I could always make our roady-techy guy drive to our warehouse and pull one out and see for myself, but I'd like to avoid that if I can. (sometimes he doesn't like to work too hard. :-) )

EDIT: I remembered that I've got a dynamic mic myself right here in the house. I plugged in my sehheiser e835 and checked it out. Perfect! By the way, I used the cable from the nady xlr to stereo miniplug and it recorded on both channels!!

So now I'm really a happy camper. Where have I been all these years? Minidiscs will do so much so well!!!

Edited March 8, 2007 by soul&folk

[King Ghidora]

Thanks for pointing out that center problem, KG. I didn't know that about the Nady.

I have used separated stereo pairs and cheap little one-point stereo mics for speech recording. I like the depth of stereo, but I know that the pros who do mixing of speech and music or ambient sound prefer mono for its clarity (never a phase problem) and flexibility.

With every mic and every room, you need to experiment with placement. You will hear very clear differences, guaranteed.

I often use my BMC-2 for speech recording by clipping them to the subject's shirt collar, each pointed toward the speaker's mouth, and that usually turns out well. (For concerts I point them outward or forward instead.) I have also used a basic clip-on lapel mic, which works fine. For recording my own speech, after much experimenting with mic placement, I found that the best results were with a pair of binaural mics both dangling off one side of my glasses next to my right cheek. It looks ridiculous while recording, but the sound is excellent.

Lately I tried my new gooseneck cardioids in various positions: pointed at the chin from below, directly at my mouth, up above pointing down toward my forehead, etc. The best position for them was with the mics pointed directly at my eyes a few inches in front of me--no P popping from the mouth, no exaggerated lows like below the chin, less room echo from pointing at forehead.

So do your own experiments with the Nady. And if it sounds odd, get a modest lapel mic.

I know that placement means a lot for dealing with phase cancelling problems. One of the advantages of using a binaural type setup like you use with your BMC-2's when you mount it on your headphones or glasses is that sound from the opposite side of each mic is blocked by your head. So you don't get the problem of sound waves reaching the mic at different times (which is what causes phase cancellation - if the top of the wave hits one mic and the bottom hits the other they effectively cancel each other out much like noise cancelling headphones do). You can still get some problems with sounds from the center though. With a single point stereo mic you don't have half of the sound blocked by something so you can get phase cancelling all across the sound field. But if you know what to listen for you can pick up the problems while monitoring your recordings.

The Nady mic isn't all that bad for picking up phase cancellation actually. The pros say that a coincident pair, which is the same as an XY design, is fully compatiblewith a mono signal and that converting to mono is easy usually. The only time you can have problems is with certain placement issues. So most of the time you won't have problems with an XY design but it is possible. You will never have a problem with phase issues with a M/S mic though. The best explanation of how this works is on this web site.

I use a Giant Squid omni lav for voice recordings a lot plus I have a Rode VideoMic that is excellent. I generally use them both when I need to be sure I get a good recording. Backups are always a good idea IMO.

[King Ghidora]

You are very right that I will hear the engine revving up (never knew it was so loud until now) and any slight movement of the mic or even hands sliding along the steering wheel, is picked up. I'm sure that those issues will not go away - but then again, that's the way it should be - the mic picks up what it's hearing. I suppose when I drive, the mind filters out the car sounds. I suppose there's some sort of study that can prove that.

The CM-2S is a very sensitive mic. You can turn down the sensitivity either with a recording device that has manual level control or an inline volume control designed to be used with headphones.

this is good information in general to think about when recording live sound. It may sound one way to the listener in the room, but the mics might just be hearing much more. I suppose that's where mic positioning and choosing the right mic matters. Some mics will likely pick up less of certain frequencies....

Mics are more sensitive than human ears. They will pick up what you don't normally hear and amplify it. It's just a matter of learning how to deal with your mic if it's a real sensitive mic like the Nady is.

A lapel mic won't work for this situations as the interview is going to be back and forth between the reporter and the people he's interviewing. Do you think the ms907 will also pick up a lot of noise while being handled?

I'm afraid it will. Mics have to be designed to be used as handheld mics. There are some handheld mics that will work with MD and other plug in power devices but not all that many really.

What do you think about using the good old sm58 for the interviews? Could I use the cable use the cable from the nady stereo mic and attach it to the sm58? Will it only produce sound on the left channel? (I could live with that too, BTW)

The SM58 is a balanced mic. Your MD uses unbalanced mics. There are devices available to convert them or you could make your own if you're handy with a soldering iron. The SM58 is a great hand held mic. So is the EV RE-50. But it would be a hassle trying to use either with a MD because they are both balanced mics. You can read about the issue on Shure's web site. The adapter they suggest using isn't all that cheap. You can find more info on the subject on this web site. Consumer video cameras use the same type of mics that MD's use.

There's a list of handheld mics on this web site. And I have heard the AT mics I mentioned before (the ATR25 and ATR55) are said to be capable of being handheld. To be honest I haven't been able to find a suitable handheld mic that will work with my equipment. I haven't looked all that hard but I intend to find one soon just because of the same reasons you mentioned. Currently I use a boom mounted mic for interviews with more than one person. You could probably do that with your Nady. A painters pole and this clamp on adapter from Radio Shack can get you into the boom business pretty cheap. But a boom requires an operator if you are interviewing more than one person and that operator needs to know what they're doing and to practice at doing it until they get good at it.

I don't get the fuss about mono compatibility of stereo mics. If you know you want to record in mono, why not just point one of both channels towards the source and discard the other channel in post processing (instead of mixing them, which can lead to phase problems indeed)?

I've said exactly that myself to people who insist that recording voice with a stereo mic is a bad idea. I've said that stereo mics are more flexibile than mono mics because you can do this. But to be fair it is true that the elements of stereo mics are not pointed directly at the subject. Unless you know exactly how the element is pointed you can't point it directly at the subject. And not all stereo mics can be used this way either. M/S mics in particular won't work this way. But you really don't need to worry about converting a M/S recording to mono anyway. It will work just fine.

Still with practice you can make this method work with voice recordings. You can also fix some phase issues by reversing the phase of one side of a stereo mic feed but that has limited success. Some frequencies won't be out of phase even when some are.

The main reason I suggest using mono mics or mics that easily convert to a mono signal is that some people have a hard time figuring out how to use one channel of a stereo recording as a mono signal. It takes some knowledge of an editing machine. And some people won't be editing on a computer. They will keep the recording they made and play it back with the same device they recorded it with.

Besides there's nothing wrong with learning a little about sound so that you can work things out for yourself in any given situation. And I suppose I cave in to conventional wisdom at times and cw says we should learn why stereo mics can be bad for recording voice if you don't know what you're doing.

[soul&folk]

The SM58 is a balanced mic. Your MD uses unbalanced mics. There are devices available to convert them or you could make your own if you're handy with a soldering iron. The SM58 is a great hand held mic. So is the EV RE-50. But it would be a hassle trying to use either with a MD because they are both balanced mics.

You must be making some sort of mistake. Why does the Sennheiser e835 record just fine? Isn't that also a balanced mic? Just to be sure, I tried it right now once again, and there's no issues at all...

There are devices available to convert them or you could make your own if you're handy with a soldering iron.

What I used was the cable that came from the Nady. It's a cable that has an XLR female end (designed to pick up a stereo signal from the mic) and the other end is a TRS miniplug. Would that be the device you're talking about? This one's only 2 feet long. I looked it up on the web and I see that they're available in a few lengths for less than $15. Edited March 8, 2007 by soul&folk

[soul&folk]

Trying to really get to the bottom of this, as I keep reading on different places on the web that the signal would be weaker without some sort of boost, I compared the sound clips from the nady mic (which is a condenser mic that has a battery inside) when just talking into it, to the sound clips of the sennheiser e835 (dynamic unpowered mic).

There is a slight difference in volume. But nothing that significant, I don't think, that it would be noticeable. I think that if you keep the mic close enough to the one speaking, it compensates just fine. It also has almost no noise from handling the mic.

Just to know for myself, I'm going to still do the following experiment... I've got a studio projects vtb1 preamp at home. While this can't work for my needs at conventions, since it doesn't work on batteries so I wouldn't be able to walk around a crowd of people doing interviews, I will still record the sennheiser going through it and see if it's a major difference. I'll report back.

I've heard about battery packs sold from a number of dealers. If I see a drastic difference, I suppose I'll take the plunge. But I have a feeling it might be more hype than reality. We'll see.

EDIT: Just learned about the following option. Sounds like it might be the perfect thing to do for interviews. Just use an sm58 or my sennheiser e835 with this cable.

Edited March 9, 2007 by soul&folk

[King Ghidora]

You must be making some sort of mistake. Why does the Sennheiser e835 record just fine? Isn't that also a balanced mic? Just to be sure, I tried it right now once again, and there's no issues at all...

What I used was the cable that came from the Nady. It's a cable that has an XLR female end (designed to pick up a stereo signal from the mic) and the other end is a TRS miniplug. Would that be the device you're talking about? This one's only 2 feet long. I looked it up on the web and I see that they're available in a few lengths for less than $15.

I'm repeating the advice Shure has on their web site about using their balanced mics with unbalanced equipment. I know that wiring a mic with the leads from one of the hot pins and the ground pin will give you sound with any balanced mic. But from what I read the sound isn't what it's supposed to be. I believe it has to do with the signal level not being as high as it should be. I will have to find the exact reason but I know what Shure says about their mics.

BTW just because a mic uses an XLR connector it doesn't mean that it is a balanced mic. The Nady is a perfect example of that. But I do believe the mic you mention is a balanced mic. I also believe you are supposed to use a converter for it also. That's what it says on this web site. You'll find people discussing this very issue on that site including the Shure mics in question and the mic you mentioned. Here are some quotes from that site:

I did a long search 18 months back and settled on the Sennheiser e835... The catch is that you need a pre-amp and converter from XLR (balanced) to standard unbalanced audio.

And also:

...you can never go wrong with a Shure SM58 or an SM58 Beta. Although you'll need some way to change it from an XLR connector to an 1/8" mini plug, either an adaptor or a custom cable.

I can find quotes like this all over the web. I can also find the reason why you shouldn't just use a connector like the one that comes with the Nady on a balanced mic. It will just take me a while and I haven't got the time right now. I know they aren't just talking about a converter that connects the wires. There's something about the two hot wires on a balanced output mic that doesn't translate directly to an unbalanced signal. The quote from the Shure web page should prove that but there's plenty more out there when I find the time to look for it.

[soul&folk]

this cable also has a transformer that changes the impedence from low impedence to high. I think it's designed for exactly this purpose.

Please keep me posted if you learn more about this. In the meantime, I think I'm going ahead and ordering one of these and will be using it a week from now for interviews. I'll let you know how it works out.

[King Ghidora]

this cable also has a transformer that changes the impedence from low impedence to high. I think it's designed for exactly this purpose.

Please keep me posted if you learn more about this. In the meantime, I think I'm going ahead and ordering one of these and will be using it a week from now for interviews. I'll let you know how it works out.

OK I think I found the difference is only that you will lose the benefit of using a balanced cable if you switch to an unbalanced cable. That is you lose the protection against picking up interference on long cable runs if you go with something like the Nady cable with a balanced mic.

The transformer you're talking about I believe converts low-z to high-z which is not needed in this situation. I think the difference between low-z and high-z is that mics are generally low-z and things like electric guitars are high-z. I believe matching impedance was more important a few years ago than it is now. At one time it wasn't a good idea to try to run a mic through a guitar amp because the impedance didn't match. It's still important in some applications but not as much as it once was.

So you should be ok to use the Nady cable with the Shure mic. You will only get one channel of sound but that's easy enough to fix in post. Or you could buy an adapter to fix this but IMO using too many adapters will put a strain on the low level of power a mic uses. You're probably better off fixing it in post which is what I do when I use my Rode VideoMic through the XLR adapter I have for it which allows me to use XLR cables. I feel like the ability to use XLR cables on longer runs outweighs the extra adapter in this situation. I mount the mic on a boom at times and I don't want to be limited to poorly shielded 1/8 inch cables. It isn't as good as having a balanced mic on a long run obviously but it's better than using a 1/8 cable. Rode makes a long cable for the VM but I believe my good XLR cables are better than any 1/8 inch cable. The adapter I use is made by Rode so apparently they knew people would want to use XLR cables.

You won't do much better for a handheld mic than the Shure but keep in mind that it's a dynamic mic which means it has to be very close to the speaker to get a good signal. The reason the SM57 and SM58 are so popular with bands is because they don't pick up what other members of the band are doing like a condenser mic would. The mic most popular with reporters is the Electrovoice EV RE-50 for interviews. It has a wider pickup angle than the Shure but will still not pickup stuff behind the speaker that much. It's also a balanced mic and is made to be handheld. If I wanted a handheld interview mic that's what I would probably get. In fact I might decide to get one for that purpose for my business but I also might go with a Shure because it can double as an instrument mic for when I record the band I work with. You won't go too far wrong with either mic but probably just for interview the EV would be better.

[soul&folk]

KG, please check this out, specifically the 10th paragraph

As you can see, they are saying that this cable will boost the volume up a bit, so if they're right, it can't hurt.

Also, I have tried the cable that came with the Nady on my mono dynamic mic (sennheiser e835) and it recorded to 2 channels. Go figure...

You're probably right about losing the protection once the cable is unbalanced. That must be why both the Shure and the Nady cable are both only 18 inches long.

Edited March 12, 2007 by soul&folk

[King Ghidora]

I thought I had seen where handhelds like the Shure SM-57 and SM-58 and the EV RE-50 wouldn't sound as loud as you need when used with a MD. I was thinking it was because they were balanced mic but apparently it's because they are dynamic mics. That Shure cable is the same cable listed in the link I provided to what Shure says about using their SM mics with unbalanced equipment. They didn't explain very well what the real problem was.

It's true that devices are used to increase the resistance of Low-Z mics so you can get better sound from them. All XLR mics are Low-Z mics too. I thought the main problems were that the bass rolls off and you can get some distortion in certain situations. Apparenlty not providing a loud enough signal is another reason people still sometimes use Low-Z to High-Z converters. The Shure cable seems to be an example of that.

That Shure cable is not at all cheap though. $50 for an adapter cable seems pretty high to me. IMO you could probably find a hand held condenser mic. The ATR25 and ATR55 are sometimes said to be capable of being used handheld. I'm not sure about that though. They would certainly be a cheaper way to go and from what I understand they provide a decent level of quality. I doubt they are SM-57 or RE-50 quality though. Not many mics are.

Like I said I've been thinking about getting a handheld myself but I still haven't found anyone suggesting a good example for a MD or a video camera. I have a video production business and I could use a good handheld mic. I just haven't found the right one to get for sure. All I can tell you is what I've heard so far.

[soul&folk]

I found that shure cable in an "as new" return sale from B&Hfor just $30 including shipping. We'll see if it's a major volume boost.... I already had the sennheiser mic and the youth group I work for has a few sm5m mics.

I recently received a catalogue from B&H and they had a very simlar item for only $20. Yo might want to go with that. Here it is

Just wondering, for interview purposes, wouldn't you rather have an sm58, and not the sm57?

Edited March 13, 2007 by soul&folk

[Strungup]

I thought I had seen where handhelds like the Shure SM-57 and SM-58 and the EV RE-50 wouldn't sound as loud as you need when used with a MD. I was thinking it was because they were balanced mic but apparently it's because they are dynamic mics. That Shure cable is the same cable listed in the link I provided to what Shure says about using their SM mics with unbalanced equipment. They didn't explain very well what the real problem was.

It's true that devices are used to increase the resistance of Low-Z mics so you can get better sound from them. All XLR mics are Low-Z mics too. I thought the main problems were that the bass rolls off and you can get some distortion in certain situations. Apparenlty not providing a loud enough signal is another reason people still sometimes use Low-Z to High-Z converters. The Shure cable seems to be an example of that.

That Shure cable is not at all cheap though. $50 for an adapter cable seems pretty high to me. IMO you could probably find a hand held condenser mic. The ATR25 and ATR55 are sometimes said to be capable of being used handheld. I'm not sure about that though. They would certainly be a cheaper way to go and from what I understand they provide a decent level of quality. I doubt they are SM-57 or RE-50 quality though. Not many mics are.

Like I said I've been thinking about getting a handheld myself but I still haven't found anyone suggesting a good example for a MD or a video camera. I have a video production business and I could use a good handheld mic. I just haven't found the right one to get for sure. All I can tell you is what I've heard so far.

Hey King , I appreciate that you know a little about mics so dont take me wrong when I say this ok?

Most XLR mics although Low Impedance do not have the PROPER inductance , and Impedance to work directly with MD recorders. The reason Mics like the AT 822 work so well with MD is that their output is regulated by a circuit that allows for it to be used with a great variety of inputs. If you plug a AT 822 into the 1/4 " inputs of a mixer that has both XLR and 1/4 it will sound like crap, if you run it thru a transformer it will be to hot and be distorted. If you run from a 1/4 female to XLR cable that is JUST a cable no trans. into the XLR of the mixer it will sound fine , kind of low output actually.

The Shure mics , are designed to work with the impedance of a mixing board , and the associated mic pre's , The arent designed for the MD preamps.

It used to be when the MZ-R50 was popular there were a buttload of mic pre's for the MD available . I had two of them.

Currently (and I reccomend everyone check this) Rolls has a VERY nice small two channel BATTERY POWERED mic pre for video people But it is perfectly suited for MD http://www.rolls.com/products/mx34.php

klik it or copy and paste , this will let you use whatever mic in what ever config you wish stereo ,dual mono X/Y, M/S ,1 channel or two

I am a recording engineer , and I have used practically every mic made, experience with the SONY MP3056 mixing board , as well as the,Allen Heath , etc, all the way down to the little Berhinger back pack board UB 502 , Each mic has it own Character and personality , and you have to listen to them to know what they will do for you and your equipment ( that means take your MD and associated cables with you to a store and try the mics out)

a pair of AT 3032's and that little pre , and most of you will be happy campers ( the Earthworks are what I am saving up for)

[soul&folk]

Currently (and I reccomend everyone check this) Rolls has a VERY nice small two channel BATTERY POWERED mic pre for video people But it is perfectly suited for MD http://www.rolls.com/products/mx34.php

klik it or copy and paste , this will let you use whatever mic in what ever config you wish stereo ,dual mono X/Y, M/S ,1 channel or two

I am a recording engineer , and I have used practically every mic made, experience with the SONY MP3056 mixing board , as well as the,Allen Heath , etc, all the way down to the little Berhinger back pack board UB 502 , Each mic has it own Character and personality , and you have to listen to them to know what they will do for you and your equipment ( that means take your MD and associated cables with you to a store and try the mics out)

a pair of AT 3032's and that little pre , and most of you will be happy campers ( the Earthworks are what I am saving up for)

Thanks for explaining this and pointing out the rolls preamp/mixer. That's very helpful information!!!

BTW, if you look at the specs on that preamp, it says phantom power is only at 18VDC. In their FAQs they explain that most condenser mics no longer require 48VDC, it's more about the currect current than the volts. I just thought people need to know about that before they run to buy one of these that it might not work for all of their mics? Guitarfxr, what has your experience been with this unit and compatibility with condenser mics?

Edited March 13, 2007 by soul&folk

[Strungup]

Thanks for explaining this and pointing out the rolls preamp/mixer. That's very helpful information!!!

BTW, if you look at the specs on that preamp, it says phantom power is only at 18VDC. In their FAQs they explain that most condenser mics no longer require 48VDC, it's more about the currect current than the volts. I just thought people need to know about that before they run to buy one of these that it might not work for all of their mics? Guitarfxr, what has your experience been with this unit and compatibility with condenser mics?

Any mic that has " Phantom power 9-42 volts " written in the specs will work just fine. Most of the time the higher the input power the " Tighter" the mic will get, that is just the nature of condensers, with a slightly lower power what you get is a more natural sound instead of a " Pushed sound" the bigger mics are especially prone to this effect. Sennheiser has quite a few variable voltage mics available, AT almost ALL of theirs , older SONY studio mics dont like 48 at all, they get reeeeaaaly heavy on the proximity effect. Give em 18 they will slap themsleves silly. Figure this, two 9 volt batts ,they take the FULL out put of the Batts , rather than building in a Voltage amplifier ( saving space and energy) Give you a nice 18 volts regulated phantom, with the system drawing typically around 30 ma. the ability to use 12 volts input ( Car battery or whatever) so you could have power for days , 1/8 stereo connects , ( computer sound card , MD, Dat, ) AND the hutspa to put a line in , you now have overdubbing . two MDs and some mics , latency free Idea catching ...............for 100 dollars????????? Also one of the reasons regular mics do not work with MD is this. A Balance XLR mic is Ground(pin 3) Negative( pin 1) Positive ( pin2) the positive and negative DO NOT translate to stereo inputs. Stereo Mics are wired Dual Mono,( Ground,positive-Ground Positive) A mic cable MUST be rewired from XLR to Dual Mono , to do this buy an XLR plug for the Mic in question, and a stereo cable 1/8 plug on the end ( old headphone cable, etc) Take the ground wire from the cable and solder to pin 3 of the XLR plug, take pin 1 and link it to pin 3 inside the plug with a small piece of wire, then wire both the red and white wires (left and right) to pin 2 of the plug. then you will get what the mic actually sounds like with the MD plugged straight in.

I have used a bunch of Rolls stuff , both in and out of the studio enviornment , 10 band EQ, PA71 7watt amp, earlier mic preamps , and I beat the crap out of them and they keep going . I dont think I have ever treated any of my gear as rough as the rolls stuff has been , backpacked knocked around, fall off the speaker cabs, Table , etc,

the little PA 71 7 watt amp , a killer studio bass player from France stole it from me ( well begged me for it actually , traded a few bottles of VERY good french wine)

Also Dynamic mics wont need Phantom power , just plug em in , it Will be a different character to the sound though , so dont expect a Dynamic to give you a condenser sound.

Edited March 13, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[King Ghidora]

Thanks for the explanation Guitarfxr. I knew there was a reason people didn't use balanced dynamics like the Shure SM-57 with plug in power stuff like MD. I just couldn't find the answer when I went looking for it.

I said at first that it was a bad idea then I found people who were doing it by rewiring the XLR plugs to dual mono or just using adapters to do it. I thought I had heard that the level would be too low and that there were other problems also. Basically I thought I remembered hearing stuff like you have just said and I knew there was problems with the resistance. I didn't know about the induction problem. But I saw where people were doing it and I thought I must have remembered it wrong. So I talked myself out of what I thought before.

What really threw me off was Shure's suggestion that people use their A96F cable which has a transformer in order to use their SM-5x mics with unbalanced input equipment. I still don't understand why they suggested this. They don't explain it at all. Here's the web page where they make that suggestion. Maybe you understand why they make this suggestion but I don't. I thought the A96f was an impedance matching transformer but maybe that's not what it is.

[Strungup]

Thanks for the explanation Guitarfxr. I knew there was a reason people didn't use balanced dynamics like the Shure SM-57 with plug in power stuff like MD. I just couldn't find the answer when I went looking for it.

I said at first that it was a bad idea then I found people who were doing it by rewiring the XLR plugs to dual mono or just using adapters to do it. I thought I had heard that the level would be too low and that there were other problems also. Basically I thought I remembered hearing stuff like you have just said and I knew there was problems with the resistance. I didn't know about the induction problem. But I saw where people were doing it and I thought I must have remembered it wrong. So I talked myself out of what I thought before.

What really threw me off was Shure's suggestion that people use their A96F cable which has a transformer in order to use their SM-5x mics with unbalanced input equipment. I still don't understand why they suggested this. They don't explain it at all. Here's the web page where they make that suggestion. Maybe you understand why they make this suggestion but I don't. I thought the A96f was an impedance matching transformer but maybe that's not what it is.

The A96 , if you look closely at it the back of the trans body ( where the cable connector joins) is a screw type connect, so at that point it goes from 3 pin to 2 pin Balanced to Unbalanced ,

Take a Blank XLR plug And wire pin 1 to Pin 3 ( Negative to Ground) Then attach the stereo 1/8 cable this way , (take any1/8 to 1/8 cable and cut off one plug) strip the wire end carefully to expose the ground wire (bare) and two covered wires( dont to deep when you strip or youll damage the covered wires.) Connect the Ground wire to pin 1&3 of the XLR and connect to two covered (Red White) to pin 2 of the XLR .

Now you have XLR to dual mono 1/8 plug , that will let you test any mono dynamic or condenser battery powered mic with the MD

That will be the same plug as the A96 without the transformer , then youll get a better Idea of what a mic will or will not do.

The MD preamps are actually quite good, I used the AT 822 on the Microtrack 24/96 , and with the RH1 , and the results from the RH1 are much better.

The AT 822 is 200 ohms , so just try it . Have fun

[King Ghidora]

Yeah I know you can wire a 3 pin XLR to a mono minijack without too much trouble. I know they sell fairly cheap adapters to make this easier too. I have the XLR to stereo trs minijack adapter that came with my Nady mic. I'd like to have a balanced mono to dual mono trs adapter.

I'm still not clear why Shure suggests the use of the impedance matching transformer. Maybe they just want to sell more equipment for no reason.

I know the pre-amps on MD's are pretty good and at least as good as the other mobile recorders. People do buy better pre's though often just so they can use the line in feature of various recorders (some of which don't come with mic pe-amps or have them disabled by upgraded firmware) because they think the pre's could be better on MD and HIMD. I haven't tried any of the add on pre-amps that people use so I can't say from experience how much better they might be. I've always suspected it was a lot of money for a little bit of an improvement when it comes to HIMD with built in mic pre's but I couldn't say that for sure without actual personal experience.

Edited March 16, 2007 by King Ghidora

[Strungup]

Yeah I know you can wire a 3 pin XLR to a mono minijack without too much trouble. I know they sell fairly cheap adapters to make this easier too. I have the XLR to stereo trs minijack adapter that came with my Nady mic. I'd like to have a balanced mono to dual mono trs adapter.

I'm still not clear why Shure suggests the use of the impedance matching transformer. Maybe they just want to sell more equipment for no reason.

I know the pre-amps on MD's are pretty good and at least as good as the other mobile recorders. People do buy better pre's though often just so they can use the line in feature of various recorders (some of which don't come with mic pe-amps or have them disabled by upgraded firmware) because they think the pre's could be better on MD and HIMD. I haven't tried any of the add on pre-amps that people use so I can't say from experience how much better they might be. I've always suspected it was a lot of money for a little bit of an improvement when it comes to HIMD with built in mic pre's but I couldn't say that for sure without actual personal experience.

The description I gave , is the wiring for a STEREO 1/8 plug , not a mono plug,

RED , Tip/ White Ring, ....both go to pin 2 of the XLR and the ground wire to 1and 3. that gives dual mono

By the way We have a wonderfull recycle place in Japan called of all things " HardOff" ,

in the junk section , having only a minor problem which I fixed in about ten minutes, was a Kenwood DMC-F5R MD Recorder,

No Battery, No Remote, but it is now a working unit,

Dont hit me or throw anything , I paid 840¥ for it .....about 8 bucks, Rush Moving Pictures playing on it now!

[King Ghidora]

The description I gave , is the wiring for a STEREO 1/8 plug , not a mono plug,

RED , Tip/ White Ring, ....both go to pin 2 of the XLR and the ground wire to 1and 3. that gives dual mono

I thought you meant a dual mono cable like the ones that split a stereo signal into 2 separate mono miniplugs. The long cable that came with my Nady mic is like that. I use a different XLR cable instead with the short adapter that also came with the Nady. It has the stereo trs miniplug.

By the way We have a wonderfull recycle place in Japan called of all things " HardOff" ,

in the junk section , having only a minor problem which I fixed in about ten minutes, was a Kenwood DMC-F5R MD Recorder,

No Battery, No Remote, but it is now a working unit,

Dont hit me or throw anything , I paid 840¥ for it .....about 8 bucks, Rush Moving Pictures playing on it now!

Some people have all the luck. I get lucky once in a while I guess. I just found a bottle from the 1840's in my yard a couple of days ago no doubt from someone's trash pile from long ago. It was complete too. It's probably worth some serious jack. I'm guessing it might go for about $500 judging by the prices I've seen on other stuff from that time period. It has embossing on it which was very unusual from that period. Woo Hoo on that for me. It was a big surprise to see a bottle still intact after laying on the side of a bank for 165 years or so. I've found other things from that time period here too but nothing as nice as this. A house obviously burned down there a long time ago. Best thing I found before was a marble. You just never know what you might find in someone's trash pile especially if it's from 160-170 years ago.

A buddy of mine gave me what he thought was just an old camera not too long ago too. It was in mint condition except for the case which had rotted. Turned out it was a Yashica from the 1960's which is worth quite a bit too (maybe $75 or so but nothing to sneeze at). He also gave me a fluid head tripod which works great. He kept trying to get me to sell the full size VHS camcorder that it came with. I tried to tell him the tripod was worth 20 times as much as that camera but he never did get why I don't think.

So I can't begrudge you your bit of luck with the Kenwood I guess. A person can always find a use for a quality piece of equipment like that.

[Strungup]

I thought you meant a dual mono cable like the ones that split a stereo signal into 2 separate mono miniplugs. The long cable that came with my Nady mic is like that. I use a different XLR cable instead with the short adapter that also came with the Nady. It has the stereo trs miniplug.

Some people have all the luck. I get lucky once in a while I guess. I just found a bottle from the 1840's in my yard a couple of days ago no doubt from someone's trash pile from long ago. It was complete too. It's probably worth some serious jack. I'm guessing it might go for about $500 judging by the prices I've seen on other stuff from that time period. It has embossing on it which was very unusual from that period. Woo Hoo on that for me. It was a big surprise to see a bottle still intact after laying on the side of a bank for 165 years or so. I've found other things from that time period here too but nothing as nice as this. A house obviously burned down there a long time ago. Best thing I found before was a marble. You just never know what you might find in someone's trash pile especially if it's from 160-170 years ago.

A buddy of mine gave me what he thought was just an old camera not too long ago too. It was in mint condition except for the case which had rotted. Turned out it was a Yashica from the 1960's which is worth quite a bit too (maybe $75 or so but nothing to sneeze at). He also gave me a fluid head tripod which works great. He kept trying to get me to sell the full size VHS camcorder that it came with. I tried to tell him the tripod was worth 20 times as much as that camera but he never did get why I don't think.

So I can't begrudge you your bit of luck with the Kenwood I guess. A person can always find a use for a quality piece of equipment like that.

I was really suprised at the live rec level control ,I just copied ShadowFax , Folk Songs for a Nuclear Village , to test the recording on it . Very nice indeed , my first NON sony MD , and it's straightforward design for that period having Live level control rather than stop or pause then adjust . very cool .

I am into Antique stuff to . If you ever get a chance drive thru Gloucester Va. or around that area Fredricksburg and such and look at the antique shops there. We are talking US history on display , plus a lot of French as well