Serious recording problems

[Adamn]

Hi there!

I don't know what to do and maybe somebody be so kind to help me.

I tried to record a rock concert in a small venue, unfortunately the result (sample.mp3) was REALLY awful. The file is attached.

My settings and equipment:

Device - Sony MZ-N10

Settings device:

mic sensitivity low

used Line-in for mic

LP2 mode

Mic - OKM II POP, with A3 adapter

Settings A3:

Low Frequency Roll Off ON

switch position "-20dB" ON

I was standing in front of the soundboard. The batteries were full. The device and the mics are new.

Can anybody give me some advice what I should do that I still hear some bass? THX

Adamn

sample.mp3

[Strungup]

Hi there!

I don't know what to do and maybe somebody be so kind to help me.

I tried to record a rock concert in a small venue, unfortunately the result (sample.mp3) was REALLY awful. The file is attached.

My settings and equipment:

Device - Sony MZ-N10

Settings device:

mic sensitivity low

used Line-in for mic

LP2 mode

Mic - OKM II POP, with A3 adapter

Settings A3:

Low Frequency Roll Off ON

switch position "-20dB" ON

I was standing in front of the soundboard. The batteries were full. The device and the mics are new.

Can anybody give me some advice what I should do that I still hear some bass? THX

Adamn

I dont half to listen to the mp3 to know that you had every limit possible going , that is what killed the Bass, setting levels is somewhat of an art , it isnt All or Nothing, you have to pay very carefull attention to your meters and watch your levels to see where they are . You put the mic thru the Line input , completely defeting the need or the purpose of the Mic sensitivty, that ONLY works on the Mic input. Try going to the mic input since you have a -20db pad on the mic. set the sense low , and then bring up the meteres little by little till you are -4 db under at the peaks , Sincet that mic Has a 20 pad it acts as a Limiter itself ( Quite a good one if you use it right) You can put that mic right in front of a Guitar amp and not get hassled. Line level in is for mics that dont have those controls or are harder to get good levl control out of .

from sound man

"Can I also use different microphones with the A3 adapter via my recorder's LINE-IN jack?

Unfortunately not, since, to our knowledge, the OKM microphone, together with the A3 adapter, is the only "Elektret" microphone that works via the Line-in jack. The adapter is coordinated with the OKM microphone, and will only work was a preamplifier together with it.

For what purposes was the OKM Pop/AV built, and how does it differ from the Classic version?

All Pop/AV OKM microphones are 3 dB less sensitive than the Classic version, allowing them to be used for higher volumes, where otherwise only the "Rock" version would provide undistorted recordings."

Note it is 3db LESS sensitive than the other mics , You have to be more carefull with the levels

Edited April 1, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[A440]

I think I'm having trouble playing back the sample, as if there's a conversion problem to mp3. It's jerky and phasing in and out. I hope that's not what the recording on the disc sounds like.

How did you make this mp3 from the N10? Did you record out of the headphone jack in realtime? Or did you upload from a MZ-RH1?

Edited April 1, 2007 by A440

[Adamn]

I think I'm having trouble playing back the sample, as if there's a conversion problem to mp3. It's jerky and phasing in and out. I hope that's not what the recording on the disc sounds like.

How did you make this mp3 from the N10? Did you record out of the headphone jack in realtime? Or did you upload from a MZ-RH1?

Unfortunately this IS what the recording on the disc sounds like.

I transfered the show with my MD-Deck optical out > soundcard optical in > Adobe Audition 2.0

I dont half to listen to the mp3 to know that you had every limit possible going , that is what killed the Bass, setting levels is somewhat of an art , it isnt All or Nothing, you have to pay very carefull attention to your meters and watch your levels to see where they are . You put the mic thru the Line input , completely defeting the need or the purpose of the Mic sensitivty, that ONLY works on the Mic input. Try going to the mic input since you have a -20db pad on the mic. set the sense low , and then bring up the meteres little by little till you are -4 db under at the peaks , Sincet that mic Has a 20 pad it acts as a Limiter itself ( Quite a good one if you use it right) You can put that mic right in front of a Guitar amp and not get hassled. Line level in is for mics that dont have those controls or are harder to get good levl control out of .

Hi!

Thx for your reply.

Are you sure to use the mic input? If i read the usermanual, this is what they say:

" The A3 will yield the best results when used on LINE inputs. With its automatic level adaptation, high microphone supply voltage and considerably low noise floor, the A3 offers a significantly greater increase in dynamic range when compared to the conventional direct connection to a microphone jack."

So what would you recommend me to do?

How can I set the levels with my MZ-N10 MD player?

THX in advance!

Adamn

[boojum]

Sounds to me like it is wildly overdriven. Could you have possibly fed the A3 into the mic-in? I have the OKM II's also, not the POP's, and they have always worked just fine for me. Try recording something quieter with the switches off rather than on and see what happens. Be sure to run it in through line-in and for god's sake use SP something to record in.

Edited April 1, 2007 by boojum

[Adamn]

Sounds to me like it is wildly overdriven. Could you have possibly fed the A3 into the mic-in? I have the OKM II's also, not the POP's, and they have always worked just fine for me. Try recording something quieter with the switches off rather than on and see what happens. Be sure to run it in through line-in and for god's sake use SP something to record in.

SP mode doesn't work, because with that setting, I can only record 80 mins and thats too short for a concert, therefore im using LP2 mode.

I'm 100% sure I have used line-in. Couple of minutes ago, I tried recording from my stereo with heavy bass and I used the mic in. It wasn't overdriven at all, but you hardly could hear any bass.

Edited April 1, 2007 by Adamn

[Strungup]

Unfortunately this IS what the recording on the disc sounds like.

I transfered the show with my MD-Deck optical out > soundcard optical in > Adobe Audition 2.0

Hi!

Thx for your reply.

Are you sure to use the mic input? If i read the usermanual, this is what they say:

" The A3 will yield the best results when used on LINE inputs. With its automatic level adaptation, high microphone supply voltage and considerably low noise floor, the A3 offers a significantly greater increase in dynamic range when compared to the conventional direct connection to a microphone jack."

So what would you recommend me to do?

How can I set the levels with my MZ-N10 MD player?

THX in advance!

Adamn

On most models , press Pause and hold the record button in for a couple of seconds to get to Manual record mode. Then while it is Paused use the FFw/Rwnd arrow buttons to adjust the levels , watch the meters as you do this , when the levels look good hit the pause button again to start recording. ( It means that yes you miss a song , or set it during sound check ) Also the optical input on your computer might not be set at the same sample rate as the Optical Output of the deck , that can also cause a problem.

You dont want TOO much limitation on the Mics , you kill the dyanamic range and the sound quality when you do . They have to breath a little . So practice with different situation and settings on the mic and recorder before trying a Loud concert . You dont run a marathon after just learning to walk, unless your a bionic kid or something. It takes a little practice to get decent sound.

Go record Construction sites , or Whatever to get used to setting good levels , then go record a concert .

Edited April 1, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[A440]

OK, I was missing the obvious. The phasing-in and out is actually Auto Gain Control trying to cope with the noise and failing miserably.

You absolutely have to use Manual Volume or you're going to get that awful effect. But I'm not sure guitarfxr has the right method for the N10. I had the N707, and the way to do it on that unit was:

Start recording and press Pause (or press Record and Pause simultaneously) so the time display blinks. Hold down Menu until you get Edit, Display, etc., and then go to REC SET, two notches above Edit. ENTER, click down to RECVolume, and change from Auto(AGC) to Manual. Then you can set a volume with the >> and <<. I usually use 20/30, but if it's ultraloud or your mics are sensitive, then try 15/30.

You have to do this each time you start recording (or after you press STOP). The unit will not hold the setting. Dumb but true.

But it sounds more difficult than it is. It's an easy routine to get used to. Usually as I arrive at the venue, I do all this outside, leave it on Pause and then un-Pause with my remote to start recording.

Use the mic--preamp--Line-in. Turn off the Low Frequency Filter--you don't need it with Line-in. If the recording is too bass-heavy you can change the EQ when you play it back.

Experiment at home with loud music--or at a construction site, what a great idea!--and see if you want to use that -20dB. Try to get a level that's above midway but not peaking at the top, and remember what that setting was so you can use it in Manual Volume.

If the N10 is like the N707, it will remember any setting above 13/30 once you go through the steps to get into Manual Volume. (Anything below 13/30 will be remembered as 13/30.) But until the RH1 Sony refused to let you just leave the unit in Manual Volume.

I suspect that you need the -20dB, but if you can get away without it your recording won't be as quiet.

[Strungup]

OK, I was missing the obvious. The phasing-in and out is actually Auto Gain Control trying to cope with the noise and failing miserably.

You absolutely have to use Manual Volume or you're going to get that awful effect. But I'm not sure guitarfxr has the right method for the N10. I had the N707, and the way to do it on that unit was:

Start recording and press Pause (or press Record and Pause simultaneously) so the time display blinks. Hold down Menu until you get Edit, Display, etc., and then go to REC SET, two notches above Edit. ENTER, click down to RECVolume, and change from Auto(AGC) to Manual. Then you can set a volume with the >> and <<. I usually use 20/30, but if it's ultraloud or your mics are sensitive, then try 15/30.

You have to do this each time you start recording (or after you press STOP). The unit will not hold the setting. Dumb but true.

But it sounds more difficult than it is. It's an easy routine to get used to. Usually as I arrive at the venue, I do all this outside, leave it on Pause and then un-Pause with my remote to start recording.

Use the mic--preamp--Line-in. Turn off the Low Frequency Filter--you don't need it with Line-in. If the recording is too bass-heavy you can change the EQ when you play it back.

Experiment at home with loud music--or at a construction site, what a great idea!--and see if you want to use that -20dB. Try to get a level that's above midway but not peaking at the top, and remember what that setting was so you can use it in Manual Volume.

If the N10 is like the N707, it will remember any setting above 13/30 once you go through the steps to get into Manual Volume. (Anything below 13/30 will be remembered as 13/30.) But until the RH1 Sony refused to let you just leave the unit in Manual Volume.

I suspect that you need the -20dB, but if you can get away without it your recording won't be as quiet.

Is it in the Menu's on the N10? My Bad, all the other discs pre HI MD basically hold it the rec button ,Thx 440.

The contsruction site Idea is based on the Low freqs and percussive elements of Heavy Machines and Jackhammers , its about the same volume as a concert when your close up ( 10 -30 feet)

[Adamn]

You absolutely have to use Manual Volume or you're going to get that awful effect. But I'm not sure guitarfxr has the right method for the N10. I had the N707, and the way to do it on that unit was:

Start recording and press Pause (or press Record and Pause simultaneously) so the time display blinks. Hold down Menu until you get Edit, Display, etc., and then go to REC SET, two notches above Edit. ENTER, click down to RECVolume, and change from Auto(AGC) to Manual. Then you can set a volume with the >> and <<. I usually use 20/30, but if it's ultraloud or your mics are sensitive, then try 15/30.

You have to do this each time you start recording (or after you press STOP). The unit will not hold the setting. Dumb but true.

But it sounds more difficult than it is. It's an easy routine to get used to. Usually as I arrive at the venue, I do all this outside, leave it on Pause and then un-Pause with my remote to start recording.

Use the mic--preamp--Line-in. Turn off the Low Frequency Filter--you don't need it with Line-in. If the recording is too bass-heavy you can change the EQ when you play it back.

Experiment at home with loud music--or at a construction site, what a great idea!--and see if you want to use that -20dB. Try to get a level that's above midway but not peaking at the top, and remember what that setting was so you can use it in Manual Volume.

If the N10 is like the N707, it will remember any setting above 13/30 once you go through the steps to get into Manual Volume. (Anything below 13/30 will be remembered as 13/30.) But until the RH1 Sony refused to let you just leave the unit in Manual Volume.

I suspect that you need the -20dB, but if you can get away without it your recording won't be as quiet.

Thx A440 for your tips!

I think this helped me alot and I understand your tutorial completely!

But other questions came into my mind:

* If I have to use the -20db switch because of loudness, is there a quality loss compared to not using the -20db switch?

* How come, with my old mic (Sony ECM-125 mic) I always used the Auto Volume and MIC IN and never had any problems? I have to annotate there was hardly any bass.

* Has this to do with the MIC or the MIC IN slot? Maybe the REC IN slot handles the loudness problem?

[A440]

There should be no quality loss with the -20db switch. It should just lower the volume of the signal going in. But if that makes your incoming level too low and you have to raise the volume on playback, you'll also be playing back more noise.

Imagine a photo with a small figure in a big landscape. When you enlarge/crop that photo to show just the figure, it's going to get grainier. But if you can make the figure fill the space in the original photo--that is, if your recording level is still strong with the -20db cut, and you're getting a lot more signal than noise--then you'll be fine.

About the mic question:

Mic-in sends the signal through a preamp. That preamp is very sensitive to bass. It overloads and distorts at worst, and it sends the AGC into a tizzy if it doesn't overload.

Most Sony mics labeled "For Minidisc" try to get around the bass problem by cutting off the response at 100 Hz, whereas the MD can record 20Hz-20,000 Hz. Your old mic may also have been less sensitive overall. So that may be why you weren't having problems before: Your new mics are much more hi-fi. When you get the right settings for them you are going to get much better recordings.

I can't find specs for the TS125 but it's marketed for "business" which means it's probably made to record business meetings, not music, so it doesn't need bass (or high treble either), just the range of the human speaking voice.

By the way, here's a page from an obsessive sound fanatic comparing the TS125 to other mics.

http://infos.0db.net/micros/compare/indexe.php3

Unlike the Mic-in jack, there is no preamp at Line-in. It's expecting an amplified signal, like the line-out of a CD player. I don't remember what the difference is between Line-in and Mic-in, but for all I know it might just be something like -20dB. That's why you have your A3 module to boost the signal going in. You just have to figure out what your new levels and settings are going to be, and experiment is the best way to do that. Go find guitarfxr's construction site.

[Adamn]

There should be no quality loss with the -20db switch. It should just lower the volume of the signal going in. But if that makes your incoming level too low and you have to raise the volume on playback, you'll also be playing back more noise.

.....

Hey, thank you VERY much. You are a great help!

A guy told me, that OKM II Pop is completely unusable for rock concerts, because the bass is completely destroyed as a result of the striking membrane.

Do you agree?

I played a little bit with my stereo with high bass pressure. Set mic sens to low, -20db switch on, line in, 15/30 record volume. Worked pretty well. But I don't know if you compare this to a live concert in a hall.

The other problem at a concert is, the nearer the end of the show, the louder the speakers. So I assume that you have to correct the rec volume from time to time during a concert.

Edited April 2, 2007 by Adamn

[A440]

I don't have the OKM. Boojum does, and I hope he'll respond to this.

As for correcting the volume, it's worth a look as things get near the end. And then, if you see it's flattened all the way at the top, you could lower the volume by a notch or two during the applause so you don't hear a change during a song. But Line-in gives you a lot of headroom, so if it's just touching the top of the scale occasionally during a song, you might not have to do anything.

[boojum]

Hey, thank you VERY much. You are a great help!

A guy told me, that OKM II Pop is completely unusable for rock concerts, because the bass is completely destroyed as a result of the striking membrane.

Do you agree?

I played a little bit with my stereo with high bass pressure. Set mic sens to low, -20db switch on, line in, 15/30 record volume. Worked pretty well. But I don't know if you compare this to a live concert in a hall.

The other problem at a concert is, the nearer the end of the show, the louder the speakers. So I assume that you have to correct the rec volume from time to time during a concert.

I think you got your mic info at another board I touch on. They have sometimes strong opinions there. I am not sure that these opinions are all founded in fact. My own experience is that I have never had the OKM II's overload. I run them through the A3 and into line-in. I used them for some binaural recording in Mexico and in one session a truck went by with not more than a hint of a muffler. I took no notice. When I listened to the track on a pair of Etymotic ER-4's I was startled! Wow! Was there ever some bass in that track, just like the damned truck. So, unless the PoP has some serious deficiencies I would not accept what the other advise

1) Check with Soundman.

2) Try all the volume tricks suggested, like turn off AGC, use the 20 dB cut switch and record at a low level.

If you can do the recording and they work, low levels, you have solved the problem. Record a rock concert you may have on CD. Record anything, but try to lay down a baseline of what works and what does not. Get to know you mics. And do talk to Soundman, too. They are nice folks. They are not answering me now, but I bought my mics 5 years ago.

Keep us posted and maybe we can help you solve the problem.

Cheers

PS - Recording times. What I do is after about an hour or so I switch discs during a break between numbers. Will that work for you???

Edited April 3, 2007 by boojum

[Adamn]

PS - Recording times. What I do is after about an hour or so I switch discs during a break between numbers. Will that work for you???

Hi there!

Thx for your help boojum.

Would be possible, but are all settings gone then? Thats my only concern.

Greetz

[Arni]

@Adamn, yes I am the guy from the 2 other boards who told you that the OKM POP are crap for real loud rock shows.

Why do u think OKM made a ROCK version of their mics?

As I told you before....these mics are NOT for real loud amplified rock shows with high SPL.

Of course i understand your "tactic" of getting as much information as possible from different sites , but believe me, I used these mics once on line-in with nicely balanced levels peaking -12dB to -6dB and the bassdrum kicks just killed everything.

So I sold them the next day and got my Sennheiser MM-HLSC-1 cardioid mics and never had problems with distortions at all since that using them with a 9V battery box on LINE-IN.

Testing at home is not a real test for a live show´s soundpressures..my home tests ALL were sounding great .

good luck Adamn

Arni

Edited April 3, 2007 by Arni

[greenmachine]

Is the A3 some sort of preamplifier or just a battery box with roll-off and attenuation switches?

[Arni]

Is the A3 some sort of preamplifier or just a battery box with roll-off and attenuation switches?

it is just a battery box powering the mics with 6V(not 9V) and a -20dB switch and a bassrolloff switch.

more info on the german board:

http://www.soundman.de/board/board.php

Edited April 3, 2007 by Arni

[A440]

Would be possible, but are all settings gone then? Thats my only concern.

Yes, you would lose settings. You can get pretty used to the five clicks or so that it takes to go back into Manual, but if stealth is a problem, you would be seen fiddling with the unit, and you do need a little bit of light.

[Adamn]

Yes, you would lose settings. You can get pretty used to the five clicks or so that it takes to go back into Manual, but if stealth is a problem, you would be seen fiddling with the unit, and you do need a little bit of light.

I'm thinking about if it's worth to use SP mode because of the 80min recording time. Is there such a big quality loss between SP(292 kbps) and LP2 (132 kbps) mode?

[Strungup]

I'm thinking about if it's worth to use SP mode because of the 80min recording time. Is there such a big quality loss between SP(292 kbps) and LP2 (132 kbps) mode?

In speech probably not , but Real ambience and music or where truly full frequency response is needed you will notice a little , not as much as you might think though. Nowhere near as bad as MP'3 , when you change sample rates in mp3 it is VERY noticable

Edited April 3, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[greenmachine]

OT, but as this almost 3 years old test shows, Atrac3 LP2 is quality-wise inferior to any other listed codec, including mp3 (LAME, which has been tuned and improved a lot since 2004). Here are the links:

Presentation

Results

Tests overview

Edited April 4, 2007 by greenmachine

[Strungup]

OT, but as this almost 3 years old test shows, Atrac3 LP2 is quality-wise inferior to any other listed codec, including mp3 (LAME, which has been tuned and improved a lot since 2004). Here are the links:

Presentation

Results

Tests overview

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The requested URL /test/multiformat128/Presentation.html was not found on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

#2 Not Found

The requested URL /test/multiformat128/Results.html was not found on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

Edited April 4, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[greenmachine]

Oops, fixed it, should work now.

[Strungup]

Oops, fixed it, should work now.

Interesting they mention QT as a format but not included in the test , I have a prog that records in QT and I must admit it is really clean , It is really basic , we are talking one button . It is like Soundrecorder in Windows but for Mac and it doesnt have a timelimit, ( exept for your drive , More file settings and preference settings than the Windows thing, It is mentioned in my download list.

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?s=&am...st&p=118589

[boojum]

Back to the original question" OKM II PoP. Try recording with levels set as low as possible. One test is worht a thousand opinions. I did not realize you would lose your settings when swapping discs. Sorry about that. If you want to continue with recording a RH1 might be a good idea. Do try testing the mics again.

Keep us in the loop. I am interested in seeing what happens. I am sure others are, too.

Cheers